Fallout 76 C&P system anounced-how Elite can learn

The current C&P system appears MUCH better than before! however people are still being ganked without much justice for the little guy.

I just quickly read an article about the new Fallout game, not overly interested in this one, but I didn't read it for Fallout, here is the snippet.

Online play also introduces the issue of griefing from antagonistic players, and Howard finally revealed their approach to overcoming that potential annoyance. If a player begins attacking another, the victim can choose to engage and trigger a proper PVP battle with rewards, including a bonus should the fallen player seek revenge once he or she respawns.
However, if the victim chooses not to engage, the damage inflicted by the attacker is much less than usual. Still, that weakened damage can gradually build, and should the unwilling combatant die, the aggressor gets no rewards—and instead is branded a “wanted murderer” within the game.
“We turn the ******* into interesting content,” said Howard. “They appear on your map as a red star. Everybody sees them and they have a bounty on their head. That bounty comes out of their own caps, and they can’t see the other players on the map. We had this idea, like, ‘Let’s make them interesting content.’ When anybody murders somebody when we’re playing in the office, everyone sees it on the map and it is awesome.”

That’s one way that Bethesda Game Studios is trying to overcome griefers in the game, but it’s one of many tweaks needed to make “Fallout 76” a friendlier place for everyone.


Ok, so as we know some of this won't work in Elite, or will break the mould. however there are some aspects I wouldn't mind seeing.


- Damage reduction is interesting, certainly give those undeserving of attacks a surviving chance as most Griefers don't even talk, they just rip you out of SC and shoot you in the back the second you drop out. but then again damage reduction would feel a little arcade in Elite (unless it was somehow justified)

-Public view of 'murderer'- this I could love, if a person kills a set amount of innocent players (or clean players) they will be awarded with a Galactic Bounty, whereby they cannot play in Solo to hide or get rid of it, and they will be flagged on Galmap for all to see... that person will be hunted until they are killed (with the excessive bounty no doubt bankrupting them... bye-bye Griefers entirely)

- reward increased- bounties got a massive nerf cap of only 2M credits, yet they flag bounties of over 1B credits on the board, could you imagine how many people would want to kill someone like that if they were payed full price?! with the Galmap tracking the bad guys will think twice about harming innocent players. the bounty cap could at least be upped to 50M or more with some other solution to exploits rather than just the whole "lets nerf the whole lot" attitude. there are genuine players who got ripped off blind with this one. what's the point, criminals do what they like and we can't even get paid for stopping it.

purely speculation and out of interest of course, but still good to consider how other games handle the same issues as Elite.
 
I guess the problem is that being a pirate etc is a valid career choice in ED - though I suppose pirates wouldn't actually kill, just ... pirate. The current methods of highlighting high bounty players are somewhat lacking though, allowing bounty hunters the higher reward and giving them a better idea of where to find miscreants seems an idea.

Interesting that they have ideas, but often people are very creative in working around any system - look at Sea of Thieves where the developer was talking before launch about how much effort they put into making it cooperative, and days after launch there was so much talk about their version of griefers. You have to remember that griefers are not out especially to kill CMDRs - they're goal is to annoy people however they can - they will find a way.
 
"Player-driven justice" does not work. It may be a neat little feature in a development office sandbox, but out in the wild people regularly won't give a damn. This is not helped by the fragmented nature of Elite's best effort matchmaking and huge play area making it trivial to never encounter other players on anyone but your terms. The bounty cap was instated for the very simple reason that it's a money generator: people can rack up arbitrarily high bounties not backed by anything the game economy, much less the offender's "hot capital", so collecting them effectively becomes an economic exploit. That was not a "nerf" (by Surt I swear people are abusing that non-term worse every day), but a necessary fix. Damage reduction may sound neat at first but ultimately that leads down the "adaptive level" rabbit hole in which the game tries to somehow make things "fair" for given encounters but only ends up with an indistinct buggy mess; it's not something that works in vertical progression, may as well have a flat "PvP toggle" that blanket-zeroes damage.

The only thing that ultimately works for fun player fights is strictly enforced horizontal arena matchmaking, and that just won't happen here.

Most of all it's sad to see another publisher that is already operating a similar title regressing to that level of naïvety. It's like every online game somehow has to learn the same lessons from scratch, completely ignoring all precedent and not even learning from in-house projects.The worst offender is probably EA who have not learned a single lesson in almost 21 years of operating several high-profile MMOs, even though they were all made "by the people who made X", but it appears to be an industry-wide disease.

I suppose pirates wouldn't actually kill, just ... pirate.
That's actually the plan for Elite, but when or if that will happen is everybody's guess. It would need more intricate tools to extract value from your marks, and that's its own bucket of design hell.
 
"Player-driven justice" does not work. It may be a neat little feature in a development office sandbox, but out in the wild people regularly won't give a damn. This is not helped by the fragmented nature of Elite's best effort matchmaking and huge play area making it trivial to never encounter other players on anyone but your terms. The bounty cap was instated for the very simple reason that it's a money generator: people can rack up arbitrarily high bounties not backed by anything the game economy, much less the offender's "hot capital", so collecting them effectively becomes an economic exploit. That was not a "nerf" (by Surt I swear people are abusing that non-term worse every day), but a necessary fix. Damage reduction may sound neat at first but ultimately that leads down the "adaptive level" rabbit hole in which the game tries to somehow make things "fair" for given encounters but only ends up with an indistinct buggy mess; it's not something that works in vertical progression, may as well have a flat "PvP toggle" that blanket-zeroes damage.

The only thing that ultimately works for fun player fights is strictly enforced horizontal arena matchmaking, and that just won't happen here.

Most of all it's sad to see another publisher that is already operating a similar title regressing to that level of naïvety. It's like every online game somehow has to learn the same lessons from scratch, completely ignoring all precedent and not even learning from in-house projects.The worst offender is probably EA who have not learned a single lesson in almost 21 years of operating several high-profile MMOs, even though they were all made "by the people who made X", but it appears to be an industry-wide disease.


That's actually the plan for Elite, but when or if that will happen is everybody's guess. It would need more intricate tools to extract value from your marks, and that's its own bucket of design hell.

Ok, fair points. just curious what things could be compatible with elite, and you highlighted that! :D

It sounds awful. Not want I want in ED.
Plus why aren't we getting a new normal Fallout instead of this tripe lol.

I played Fallout to get away from people, now they want me to socialise!!??? this is madness!!!

Vegas will always be my favourite, only played through it like 8 times :D
 
The current C&P system appears MUCH better than before! however people are still being ganked without much justice for the little guy.

I just quickly read an article about the new Fallout game, not overly interested in this one, but I didn't read it for Fallout, here is the snippet.

Online play also introduces the issue of griefing from antagonistic players, and Howard finally revealed their approach to overcoming that potential annoyance. If a player begins attacking another, the victim can choose to engage and trigger a proper PVP battle with rewards, including a bonus should the fallen player seek revenge once he or she respawns.
However, if the victim chooses not to engage, the damage inflicted by the attacker is much less than usual. Still, that weakened damage can gradually build, and should the unwilling combatant die, the aggressor gets no rewards—and instead is branded a “wanted murderer” within the game.
“We turn the ******* into interesting content,” said Howard. “They appear on your map as a red star. Everybody sees them and they have a bounty on their head. That bounty comes out of their own caps, and they can’t see the other players on the map. We had this idea, like, ‘Let’s make them interesting content.’ When anybody murders somebody when we’re playing in the office, everyone sees it on the map and it is awesome.”

That’s one way that Bethesda Game Studios is trying to overcome griefers in the game, but it’s one of many tweaks needed to make “Fallout 76” a friendlier place for everyone.


Ok, so as we know some of this won't work in Elite, or will break the mould. however there are some aspects I wouldn't mind seeing.


- Damage reduction is interesting, certainly give those undeserving of attacks a surviving chance as most Griefers don't even talk, they just rip you out of SC and shoot you in the back the second you drop out. but then again damage reduction would feel a little arcade in Elite (unless it was somehow justified)

-Public view of 'murderer'- this I could love, if a person kills a set amount of innocent players (or clean players) they will be awarded with a Galactic Bounty, whereby they cannot play in Solo to hide or get rid of it, and they will be flagged on Galmap for all to see... that person will be hunted until they are killed (with the excessive bounty no doubt bankrupting them... bye-bye Griefers entirely)

- reward increased- bounties got a massive nerf cap of only 2M credits, yet they flag bounties of over 1B credits on the board, could you imagine how many people would want to kill someone like that if they were payed full price?! with the Galmap tracking the bad guys will think twice about harming innocent players. the bounty cap could at least be upped to 50M or more with some other solution to exploits rather than just the whole "lets nerf the whole lot" attitude. there are genuine players who got ripped off blind with this one. what's the point, criminals do what they like and we can't even get paid for stopping it.

purely speculation and out of interest of course, but still good to consider how other games handle the same issues as Elite.


The System would likely not Work in ED.
Its just not matching the Realism Attempt that Frontier is Aiming for.

I do agree however that the Bountys need to be Higher and not set on such a small cap.
2 Million is a Joke.
For 2 Million I would never even Risk Fighting someone that racked up this Bounty.
My Rebuy alone is 10 Million. So why the Hell would I risk my Ship for a Measly 2 Million Bounty that I can Earn Twice in a Single Transport Mission....
 
I'm assuming Fallout 76 won't have Solo mode, combat logging, "all modes must be equal!!!!!" and rampant instancing issues. Otherwise these genius anti griefing measures would never work. Which is why the won't work in Elite.

Also - until it's implemented and working over a protracted period of time this is all just talk as far as I'm concerned. Let's see what happens once players start deliberately racking up bounties and then taking turns letting each other collect it for big cash and prizes.
 
I'm assuming Fallout 76 won't have Solo mode, combat logging, "all modes must be equal!!!!!" and rampant instancing issues. Otherwise these genius anti griefing measures would never work. Which is why the won't work in Elite.

Also - until it's implemented and working over a protracted period of time this is all just talk as far as I'm concerned. Let's see what happens once players start deliberately racking up bounties and then taking turns letting each other collect it for big cash and prizes.

Well. I would assume it will get Instancing Issues ^^
Because I doubt that it will be all in the same Instance. That would be Crazy ^^

As for it actually working in Fallout. I would assume it will work as long as there is some more parts to it.
The Simple Reason for that is that Fallout is vastly different in its Systems and has no Issues with being Unrealistic and Arcade Style.
They Simply dont care about some of the Ramifications which Elite Dangerous has.

Alone the System that if someone Attacks another Player without that Player Consenting to it. Decreasing the Damage Dramatically is a very Effective Measure.
Because unlike Elite Dangerous where due to Maneuverability you can have Fights where one side never Hits. In Fallout it is unlikely to avoid being Hit when 2 Players Fight.
And since the Attacking Player wont be getting the Damage Reduction he can actually Die in a Few Hits.
Which is a very Drastic Deterrent.
Add to that that you get no Rewards or anything if you Kill someone who doesnt agree to PvP and that you become a Murderer which gets a Bounty on his Head and can be Attacked by others which will get a Reward while he still wont get any Reward for Defending himself. And that you Pay the Bounty out of your own Caps which in Fallout Games are pretty hard to get.

The one Part its missing is the Question of Losses on Death.
If there is no Loss on Death this System is Meaningless because you got nothing to Gain. But also nothing to lose aside from a few Caps and if you got none you might lose nothing.
If there is a Death Penalty however this System would likely make non consentual PvP almost extinct. Because there is High Risk of Losses and nothing to gain from it.
 
Well. I would assume it will get Instancing Issues ^^
Because I doubt that it will be all in the same Instance. That would be Crazy ^^

As for it actually working in Fallout. I would assume it will work as long as there is some more parts to it.
The Simple Reason for that is that Fallout is vastly different in its Systems and has no Issues with being Unrealistic and Arcade Style.
They Simply dont care about some of the Ramifications which Elite Dangerous has.

Alone the System that if someone Attacks another Player without that Player Consenting to it. Decreasing the Damage Dramatically is a very Effective Measure.
Because unlike Elite Dangerous where due to Maneuverability you can have Fights where one side never Hits. In Fallout it is unlikely to avoid being Hit when 2 Players Fight.
And since the Attacking Player wont be getting the Damage Reduction he can actually Die in a Few Hits.
Which is a very Drastic Deterrent.
Add to that that you get no Rewards or anything if you Kill someone who doesnt agree to PvP and that you become a Murderer which gets a Bounty on his Head and can be Attacked by others which will get a Reward while he still wont get any Reward for Defending himself. And that you Pay the Bounty out of your own Caps which in Fallout Games are pretty hard to get.

The one Part its missing is the Question of Losses on Death.
If there is no Loss on Death this System is Meaningless because you got nothing to Gain. But also nothing to lose aside from a few Caps and if you got none you might lose nothing.
If there is a Death Penalty however this System would likely make non consentual PvP almost extinct. Because there is High Risk of Losses and nothing to gain from it.

I went ahead and read up some more on this and the big takeaway for me was that in Fallout 76, death doesn't really matter anyway. You lose/drop structure building materials but all of your gear, money, items, etc stay with you, so unlike Elite it's kind of cost consequence-free to begin with. When understood in that light it seems like griefing will by default be less of an issue anyway compared to ED, and the whole damage manipulation thing probably covers the rest of it.

I do agree with Fallout's approach to bounties and would like it applied to ED. The money for the bounty absolutely should come out of the criminal's account, and if there isn't enough money in the account they would have the option of selling off assets or going into debt and having a percentage of their earnings automatically deducted. And then we could hopefully adjust bounty payouts so that they are high enough that it's actually *worth* the risk of taking on another CMDR. But I guess Frontier is so paranoid about any sort of player to player money transfer that they'd rather have a broken bounty system than risk opening up such a loophole? Meanwhile I'm guessing that in Fallout 76 you can just *give* money to other players so it's be a moot point.
 
Sounds like a great idea at first, but I don't know how the"credit transfer effect" can be avoided while still punishing the murderer and rewarding the executioner.

I hope someone from FDev read this and passed it to the game designers anyway.
 
I honestly hope Fdevs learn nothing from Bethesda or Zenimax Online as that reads one way but they’ve been known to not have things work as described more than often.

I do agree the current system is flawed and doesn’t make sense to me in terms of being a PvE player who is often hoping to avoid PvP, I wouldn’t mind if another player attacking me did very minor damage however if I were to blow up, I’d hope no rebuy and no scam data, cargo, missions would be impacted as well as having me resplendent within close proximity to where I exploded

I think tagging the other player as a PK would be good however, I don’t have ideas on the consensual PvP portion.
 
Fallout 76 has complete insultion from PVP. In the land of fallout 76 people that shoot you are "greifers" and even the dude from bethesda refreered to them as A holes in their beth con or whetver they called their little party (rude). Basicly if you do anything to intrude in their little bubble you are bad and bethesda is willing to hard code protection for them. Now.... try and fit this picture into your mind. Fallouts, 76 included, are 18 rated games. The world is ultra violent, filled with guns and murder weapons of every description. They have made a hello kitty game for the 3+ audience. Calling it fallout is false advertising. IMO :) time will tell.
 
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