FD are busy little bees and they are frameworking, and padding, and frameworking and padding.

[ExRex]

Having dreaded playing 1.3 after having read bug report after bug report as well as countless critical threads, I finally had time to play around 7-8 hours this weekend. I did not play Power Play, I played missions, smuggling (and pirating some starter CMDRS for fun) in a stock Sidewinder with 1000 cr and managed to move up to own both a Hauler and an Eagle.

I can finally see a potential direction where Frontier is going.

FD are frameworking and frameworking this game so that it is able to stand on its own some day in the future. However, right now all the parts are showing (as they were with missions pre 1.3 or with community goals pre 1.2 ) and they are slowly padding sinew, flesh and muscles to these frameworks. In the meantime the player base is creating most of the flesh in terms of groups, rules and diplomatic relations to fill out the obviously missing emergent gameplay elements that FD are not making (hopefully they will).

Yes, we can see right through much of the framework still, but as of 1.3 I am hearing Comms Chatter about wedding celebrations, refugees and pirate groups and I can actually follow mission targets in Super Cruise and complete my missions.
After having scooped illegal salvage from a weak signal source, I can now also open up my Galaxy Map, check for Archon Delaine Control systems nearby and see where I will get the strongest bonuses and price for said salvage.

Frontier is beginning to make the game elements stick together. It still is not very pretty, but it is actually starting to get fun.
Looking back at how the mission structures and content have progressed from 1.1 to 1.3, it will probably go forward. Though it will be slow.
I will not be surprised if (come 1.5?) the grindy delivery missions in Power Play will be replaced with more complex missions that do not entail going from A to B to A to get the rewards.

So, I am not saying that FD are awesome and they will make the bestest game evar, I am just saying that they are giving it time, and right now they have given us one iteration of a playable Powerplay. Boring and counter-intuitive it may seem, but it has potential to move in the emergent direction eventually. Like many others have noted, right now it just isn't there.
To me it just doesn't make any sense to include all of these empty shells of gameplay elements without also populating them further in the future.

So what is your take on this? Are you seeing the future development of this game to continue on with empty frameworking?
Having read many people's complaints here, it surely seems so, though I am inclined to disagree.

TL;DR : Frontier has put together a framework and many more game elements in place, and over time this framework will hopefully be populated and tweaked.

 

[Hellhawk666]

...
TL;DR : Frontier has put together a framework and many more game elements in place, and over time this framework will hopefully be populated and tweaked.

When I'm in an optimistic mood, this is what I think

 

[Ebannaw]

When I'm in an optimistic mood, this is what I think

I hate your name.

 

[MVP_Bluntman]

Well, this is going to be interesting.

The Universe itself is huge, and ED can take itself in any direction provided within limitations of the game's mechanics themselves, but I mean with them being Exploring, Mining, and Combat respectively, and PP just being a side mechanic they can continue to add to those three mechanics. However this doesn't go without fine tuning it, its like building a semi-professional race car, you constantly test and change things, you add or remove things, you improve the final product. FDEV has this certain aspect in mind that they wanted a small scale in essence but larger scale in feel of persistence. Obviously people will disagree and agree with what they are doing to the game, its only when they argue about the wrong things is where things go wrong however because certain things that get changed really shouldn't get changed and they end up feeling rushed at that point. It certainly feels like a framework, a stable one at that, but it needs tuning.

 

[kreuzbichler]

So, I am not saying that FD are awesome and they will make the bestest game evar,

heretic alert! get him!

 

[B33 ENN]

Having dreaded playing 1.3 after having read bug report after bug report as well as countless critical threads...

...So, I am not saying that FD are awesome and they will make the bestest game evar, I am just saying that they are giving it time, and right now they have given us one iteration of a playable Powerplay. Boring and counter-intuitive it may seem, but it has potential to move in the emergent direction eventually. Like many others have noted, right now it just isn't there.
To me it just doesn't make any sense to include all of these empty shells of gameplay elements without also populating them further in the future...

You know, I'm sure it'll all work out in the end too. And maybe in a few years I'll come back in earnest and continue my commander's journey.

I think most of those critical threads would disappear if there was some feedback in the other direction from Frontier, specifically David Braben, on the future plans for the game. Not technical specifics, as they must be protected from rivals, but just reassuring the confusion in the community about the direction of the game post release. However, he's made it clear there won't be any discussion of a roadmap in his AMA.

In that case, as far as I'm concerned, there doesn't need to be any understanding from the playerbase either. If something isn't there, or isn't good enough, or just doesn't work, then it should be taken at face value to judge the product as it stands now. Why should we sit here and speculate sympathetically when our concerns are met with a wall of silence?

 

[Fost]

I feel the same way too and am constantly excited by what is to come.
The end game of space chess is now in place - it will get better.
The low level missions are in place - they will get more elaborate and satisfying.
Good things to come but I love this game so much it's difficult to stay patient
This weekend was the worst for pure fun I've had - We couldn't wing up the whole weekend and something appears broken that skews almost all targets to be "Mostly Harmless" but I kept reminding myself - they will fix this and it will be amazing again. So looking forward to the next 2 weeks as it all gets honed and then to hearing news of the next stage of this great game

 

[Obsidian Ant]

You know, I'm sure it'll all work out in the end too. And maybe in a few years I'll come back in earnest and continue my commander's journey.

I think most of those critical threads would disappear if there was some feedback in the other direction from Frontier, specifically David Braben, on the future plans for the game. Not technical specifics, as they must be protected from rivals, but just reassuring the confusion in the community about the direction of the game post release. However, he's made it clear there won't be any discussion of a roadmap in his AMA.

In that case, as far as I'm concerned, there doesn't need to be any understanding from the playerbase either. If something isn't there, or isn't good enough, or just doesn't work, then it should be taken at face value to judge the product as it stands now. Why should we sit here and speculate sympathetically when our concerns are met with a wall of silence?

It seems to me, that it is a fairly self-defeating way for Frontier to deal with their community. Whilst it makes sense that Frontier clearly don't want to promise features, that they may not be able to deliver...it makes little sense that they actively say to the playerbase "we are not going to talk about anything whatsoever regarding the future of the game."

I look at the stuff CIG put out for Star Citizen, and there is a constant flow of information. Maybe CIG will never deliver on that game, and maybe it is all pie-in-the-sky, but at every turn CIG show they listen to their community, as well as communicate the intended direction for their game. I took a look at EVE Online over the weekend, and CCP deliver a whole bunch of information on the direction they want to take the game in, they are very clear about even going as far as to show proof of concepts. CCP even openly state things like "This is how we see the game developing in the future, but we will change those plans based on feedback from the forums."

The wall of silence from Frontier is stunning, when it is coming from a small company that is targeting their game towards a niche audience.

I agree with your point entirely, without any clear information from Frontier - all we can do as customers is judge their game and updates at face value, or sit in silence. Anything else is pure guesswork.

 

[Uncertain]

I think the game really needs some meat in the next patch. It's been bones for so long now, and every big patch introduces a new skeleton to gnaw away at. Bones last a very long time, but they really leave you hungry.

</metaphor torture>

As for the future, with no information there's nothing to base an opinion on except the patches we've seen so far. So based on those, my best guess is that they'll add a new set of menus every month, to be used by people so bored of trading and shooting they'll happily spend millions to unlock new bits of menu that conceptually overlay trading and shooting with a rose-coloured film.

 

[HurstLlama]

...

In the meantime the player base is creating most of the flesh in terms of groups, rules and diplomatic relations to fill out the obviously missing emergent gameplay elements that FD are not making (hopefully they will).

...

I hope they don't. It is the fact that the players are deciding on what situation they want to develop on how to go about it that makes PowerPlay so interesting and probably unique. The chaos (and I use the term inits mathematical sense - a deterministic system the results of which cannot be predicted) we now have is much more interesting and fun to play in than the inevitability of command and control and scripted missions that would be imposed by a centrally imposed system.

 

[n13L5]

So what is your take on this? Are you seeing the future development of this game to continue on with empty frameworking?

I just don't like a game based on non-entity cardboard characters playing out THEIR (FD's) soap drama among a hand full of stereotypical power hungry and conniving but entirely non-existent humans, rather than facilitating OUR (player's) soap drama.


What you say will become more fleshed out and add more complex missions is akin to decking out a 1980's Chevette with leather seats, aircon, stereo and golden door knobs. It will always be a turd of a car. (I mean Power Play by that, not the entire game of Elite)


An alien invasion with real characters you can find and fight or trade with in the game, flying actual space ships would still enable soap opera. But with the benefit of being tangible, not completely disconnected from the actual game, merely offering a few static character portraits we're supposed to somehow "care about"... All anybody will care about will be the special modules to better gank people and things.


I do wonder where EVE would be, if they had tried to have players follow some lame, even-less-engaging-than-abysmal-TV-soaps opera, rather than give them the tools to make their own soap.

 

[kilvenny]

My guess is that Microsoft insisted on no announcement on the base game or expansions because it lessens the impact of CQC and XB1 launch. Once CQC is out in the wild and stabilised I suspect we will see more detail. around the base game and its expansions.

 

[Webimpulse]

I kind of like the game as it is right now; don't get me wrong, I'd like more updates and features as much as the next player, but what can I say, I'm a simple man with simple pleasures. While games that are too simple bore me, so are games that are too complicated. Complex games need to strike that balance, between simple and complicated, because complex games can be so dense that it would take too long to get to the substance of the game.

The point I'm getting at is that I like FD's incremental approach for this reason. The new features like Powerplay may not be everyone's cup of tea, but at least they're optional to participate in. It's a way of easing players into that greater complexity. Obviously the way FD handles development may not be for everyone. But it works for me, for the reasons outlined above.

 

[Boff'in]

It seems to me, that it is a fairly self-defeating way for Frontier to deal with their community. Whilst it makes sense that Frontier clearly don't want to promise features, that they may not be able to deliver...it makes little sense that they actively say to the playerbase "we are not going to talk about anything whatsoever regarding the future of the game."

I look at the stuff CIG put out for Star Citizen, and there is a constant flow of information. Maybe CIG will never deliver on that game, and maybe it is all pie-in-the-sky, but at every turn CIG show they listen to their community, as well as communicate the intended direction for their game. I took a look at EVE Online over the weekend, and CCP deliver a whole bunch of information on the direction they want to take the game in, they are very clear about even going as far as to show proof of concepts. CCP even openly state things like "This is how we see the game developing in the future, but we will change those plans based on feedback from the forums."

The wall of silence from Frontier is stunning, when it is coming from a small company that is targeting their game towards a niche audience.

I agree with your point entirely, without any clear information from Frontier - all we can do as customers is judge their game and updates at face value, or sit in silence. Anything else is pure guesswork.

wall of silence......so you're not a Half life fan, on the steam Half life Forums with close ties to various fan based media outlets who've managed to interview Gabe and others over the years and still not got an answer.
Sorry sir, you get a sarcastic slow clap from me....respectfully of course I've been checking out some of your youtube videos and know you've got some solid points

However -we get news letters ever week, a dev posting in forums about issues and planned features. This is an abundance more information that you get out of many other companies.
And it might not be as good as other companies, but for frontier, this is their first MMO as such. They are still learning.

We get information about what *is* happening and what is ABOUT to happen.

What we don't have is a road-map of where we are going
and this is what the issue is, as you say, "all we can do as customers is judge their game and updates at face value, or sit in silence"
the updates come and if I may be brave enough to suggest this is your point, we don't know where these current features fit in the grand scheme of things or how they interlink with future roadmap of plans.

Go listen to the Dev diaries from pre-alpha stages of things like visiting dignitaries who could be a passenger on a player ship, who is marked for assassination from other players during the inauguration of a space station that the playerbase helps build
- we still aren't there yet!!!
HOWEVER as the OP says, 1.1 community goals, and 1.2 wings, and 1.3 starts putting us on the path of making that happen and optimisically I agree.
We not there, yet as of 1.3, but maybe 1.4 or 1.5 or 1.6? It's hard to say, without the roadmap...and that's the bitter itch, the not knowing, but this is also a good thing.

It's as you say, we just take the updates as they come, and "pray" we get there.

But that is actually how software development actually pans out, you got a rough idea of where you want to go, HOW you get there, might not be the 3-step process you honestly believe it is (and sold in to your client), because the first step you blunder into an unforseen obstacle and you got to fix that first and it adds an additional 5 steps to the original 3 step plan, and it alters the final goal.

As a previous developer who made "tools" and "services", as well as small games for web and mobile platforms, I went through a chunk of this process, and it burnt me out and put me in a depression....so allow me to not *rant* specifically at anyone, but just work on my anxiety issues here I'm rehabbing on a university course learning c++ and other languages and coding practices outside of my self taught flash background.

Roadmapping software development is a dangerous thing. Even for business software. Things turn up during the coding process that are unforseen, or plans just don't work out. These things just happen. And in my recent UNI courses they actaully go out of their way explaining to the young kids, this is just how the cookie crumbles and you got to get used to *this* discussion and dialogue with the clients.

I've taken a sabbatical away from such problems because well, I learnt all this the hard way and took such issues very VERY personally. Without knowing this is the actual ebb and flow of development, that strain can be hard because you let the client down (and some even go out of their way to make out you lied to them...bait and switch), or out of personal anxiety issues you feel like you let them down your client for being useless as well as being an inadequate colleagues for your team (and in times of anxiety driven egotistical paranoia you believe everyone thinks your are incapable idiot and a lying SOB for not delivering promised features).

and that's when you have *do* have complete transparency - It's never win win, having roadmaps and transparency is a dangerous thing that if the client is not up to speed that development can go wrong
And that's the fundamental key issue,
to educate and include the client as a part of the development team. But if you are a developer then, especially of a game, you can't appreciate the game for being a game. You are no longer a player, but a developer.

Seriously most of the time the original design wasn't actually ever going to work out. It's just a vague goal to get the process moving.

1.Increment
2.test
3.iterate
4.test (go back to step 3, or step1)

As obsidian ant points out, without the roadmap, we don't know if such features are implemented well, or the balance is correct, without the actual future version of the game for comparison.
But we can't get there without the iteration and testing of todays updates. It's a very chicken and egg scenario. But we play, we test, and we whine and complain and praise where we like.
That's all we can do....as you say.

And all of this goes for developers and gamers in general going of e3 promises for other games, where bait and switch does happen, or budget and deadlines supersede the features, or features just weren't as fun as the promo-video made it look,
certain corners of the community are always going to vehemently enrages or just eternally jilted with a chip on their shoulders that certain features got "cut".

And Let's face it, after promising offline, and not being able to deliver - some reactionaries leapt to the "switch and bait" sentiment and start bawling their eyes out that they were betrayed -
Frontier have ruffled enough players feathers to be VERY wary of not delivering a roadmap of which many of the features we can guaranty they will not be able to deliver on for various solid reasons, whether it is a time factor of developing it, or it doesn't gel with existing parts of the game code, or it would upset and existing mechanic that works out nicely. Whatever reasons they get cut and whatever reason is given, and no matter how much a Developer apologizes. (say like Valve did over Diretide, http://blog.dota2.com/2013/11/not-my-best-work/, Gamers have a tendency to overlook, ignore such apologies and cling to their wounded emotional state that they were wronged.


PERVERSELY - This is why NOT showing the roadmap and maintain that that bitter itch of not knowing, plays out in a positive way for both developer and gamer.
We can't be upset over cut or failed features that have NOT been talked about, and Frontier don't have to pander or waste a buttload of PR time or development time to add in reactionary unplanned features to placate the Fans.

another reasons for silence, is maintaining the player base,
think about it, Let's say they give a roadmap and the wanted "killer" feature isn't on the books until say September 2016, we could see a mass exodus of players until that date - the lie of omission might actually be better for the community, wouldn't you agree?

So as much as I agree, the lack of a roadmap is hurting us - and boy is it annoying.
having too much transparency however, might be worse. (yeah this was Valves logic for Ep3/HL3 which in the beginning I was furious about, but after my issues, I sort of sympathize).