FD Devs, please don't take this the wrong way...

But do our programmers suck?

Don't get me wrong. The game looks beautiful; absolutely stunning! The visuals are amazing and the animation is top notch. But the game flow and and game play are seriously lacking, and bugs that should never appear or reappear keeps plaguing each update.

Anyone ever tried taking a module from one ship and installing it on another? It's a pain in the behind, isn't it? You have to switch ships, remove the module, and if it's a core module, replace it with an E version, or something that's already in storage. And if your storage is full, well, I can't help you there. Next you have to switch back to your original ship, install the module, then go back into storage and delete the E version if you had one in there as a placeholder. This is a horrible process and I cringe every time I have to do it.

"Now, which ship has that module?" That's the worst, isn't it? Knowing that you have a module that will perfectly fit your ship, but it's on another ship, possibly far away in some distant solar system, so you have to go through every ship to see which one has it. This is such a horrible game flow that sometimes I become frustrated and either quit the game or fly another ship.

Have you ever wanted to a planet with the material you need to engineer a module? You can't buy it, and that makes no sense. OK, ask an NPC. You can't! There is no NPC interaction, with the exception of the station menus. You can't negotiate with a pirate that you know his boss and therefore he/she should stop interdicting you. You can't go to a station bar and collect on local gossip where you can find a good cache of carbon. You can't even hire an NPC to go out an mine for you while you take care of other things. I've never encountered a game so lacking in basic game play as this one. So why do we continue to play? Two reasons, I find; we are all fans of the original Elite, and the game does look lovely. But lovely can only entertain for so long.

I remember the bug where you were able to install an exclusive module twice, and as a result, it corrupted your commander data. This should never have happened. There should exist checks in the code and database (if FD uses one) to prevent such occurrences. Even my 9 y/o daughter knows this!

And this past update where missions were paying out a ridiculous amount of credits. Nobody coded in some sanity checks? And the solution was even worse. Instead of just denying the transaction, you get disconnected from the server. It's as if if Windows gets one BSOD you chop the computer/server into little pieces, burn down the building, then finally explode an EMP over the site to prevent further infection. Then finally nuke it from space. It's the only way to be sure. Seems a bit extreme doesn't it?

And simple things that other games have implemented for decades, such as walking around, NPC interaction, or even PC interaction through trading, selling, and such, is not in the game, and won't seem to be in the game for some foreseeable future. Is this the quality we have come to expect?

Bar far these examples are not an exhaustive list. There are a ton of things that should be in the game by now, and proper QA to make sure bugs that were fixed before do not reappear in the game. But the process doesn't seem to be getting better.

So I have to ask, do our programmers suck?
 
With all due respect, you seem to be under the impression that you need to have it all, and all right now. We're all hoping for a few more of our favorite feature concepts to make it into the game sometime, but we've seen what feature creep and overprimising can do to a game. FD put an offering onto the market based on a modest premise, and met its goals. In a genre where overpromising and underdelivering is standaqrd, ED had a complete product out the door and made to spec right from day 1. As a result ED is the only big ticket space game I can think of in recent memory not to have a major crapstorm before or at release.

They are now engaged in the risky prospect of trying to increase the features list without upsetting everything that's already there. That takes a lot of testing and is very easy to get wrong, so they proceed slowly, not because their programmers suck, but because their directors don't, and would rather minimize bugs than go to the wall on new half-baked features.

Oh yes, regarding bugs -- show me a game or other product with no bugs at all and I'll show you a project that was nowhere near as ambitious as it could have been. In a project as ambitious as ED, no matter how thoroughly you test, a few bugs are inevitable, all you can do is try to squish them as you find them. That doesn't mean the FD people are bad programs, what it means is the project was so ambitious that if you took the time to test absolutely everything before release, you'd never get the product out the door. Sooner or later it's time to cut the cord and open for business, and no matter when in the testing process you do that, a few teething troubles are unavoidable. In my experience ED has done a fair job of squishing bugs, if you're smart enough to recognize that no game this big will be completely bug free, you're probably going to agree with that.
 
Last edited:
Sorry bro I'm not trying to be a fanboy who pretends nothing is wrong. However I don't think these make for good examples.

First, module swapping. This isn't supposed to be easy as really you should buy a ship, outfit and then fly it. I'm told module swapping only exists because before you could store modules, this was your only chance of a truly multirole ship.

Second, yes I always think it's strange that I'm grinding to find some carbon or iron. Isn't my ship mostly made from this extremely common element. But wait, engineers gives you a huge advantage over other players so I'm quite happy that someone can't just buy infinite rolls.

Thirdly, pirate boss man. You lost me on this one. Why would you know some pirate boss and why as a player that doesn't really care about role play would I want to make friends with this character. I get a little frustrated when federal navy ships interdict me when as a rear Admiral, I definitely outrank the little **r but like I said, seems a little too in depth for a game.

Sorry man but if these are your problems with the game then the programmers obviously did one hell of a job. I mean I played the Division, I know poor programming when I see it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
And simple things that other games have implemented for decades, such as walking around, NPC interaction, or even PC interaction through trading, selling, and such, is not in the game, and won't seem to be in the game for some foreseeable future. Is this the quality we have come to expect?

What on earth gives you the idea these are simple things?

One thing I recognize from what you're saying here, is you play other games that have 5 year development cycles, now admittedly ED could have more depth, but the things you mention above are far from simple to implement, wow, I'd love an AI crew mate I could interact with on the bridge of my ship, but that alone would take a lot of development, then we'd want lip sync and all kinds of other assets to make it work, I presume you've seen the size of this game on disk already, right?
 
But do our programmers suck?

No. They're human. Make mistakes. And work hard, for people that like to endlessly tell them, that they 'suck'.

Frontier needs a QC team, to validate changes (I'm convinced of that more than ever) but people seem to believe they are (suddenly) development gurus, whereas Frontier are somehow hopeless. We have an entire forum full of expert coders. Yeah no. If it was easy to develop exceptional games, that are robust and wildly successful, everyone would. It's actually insanely stupidly difficult. The litany of failed attempts, and broken examples, tells us this.

FX17 for me was a watershed moment; I saw a developer that finally realised where the game's heart was (the people and the experience) and pledged to do better. They are not perfect, will make mistakes (hence QC, please frontier for the love of god) but they keep going, in spite of all the people telling they can't do, and won't succeed, despite them already doing so.

I'm quite sure they will be solidly pouring heart and soul into the game, whilst being told they suck, for as long as they have the strength to do so. And I don't doubt they have more staying power, and infinitely more patience. ;)
 
Last edited:
Bugs happen in programming and game development, that's just a fact of the industry. Elite does get it's fair share of bugs during development, that's for sure, but all games do. What is particularly bad about Frontier and Elite though is how many of these bugs actually get released to live. What is especially bad is how many of these bugs get fully reported during the beta phases and still end up going live. That's not so much the programmers fault as bugs are simply unavoidable with a game as complex as Elite, but it makes for a good argument that Frontier needs to improve some of their quality policies and methods. I feel like Frontier often chooses to go live with bugs rather than delay to fix things first, and I'm not sure that is always a wise choice.
 
I have always said FD has some questionable design decisions, but what the game offers I like and so far I hadn't that many issues to say "they suck".
The game is constantly being worked on and they keep delivering stuff. Perhaps is not what you want and perhaps is not what you consider "industry standard".
But luckily for many of us, you are not everyone.
What I do concede in all this is that FD needs to upscale their QA department, and to design their features with a more human like approach.
 
@OP

First you ask FD to not take this the wrong way and the next thing you ask is if their programmers suck........ugh.

It's because of people like you why we can't have nice things.
By complaining and ranting, tripping over every little fault the only thing you do is demoralize the people who make this game.
They dedicate their time, creativity and effort into this game and all you do is degrading it to rubish, telling them they suck at what they do.

If you can do better then be my guest.

I'm not blind for the bugs or imo less logical choices FD makes but I would be the last to ask FD if their devs suck.
Just take a look at ED, how big, how much features, how much coding is involved to make it all work.
You name a "released" game as complex as ED without any bugs or glitches, besides that those bugs and glitches aren't that big imo, not compared to the scale of ED.

And those things you mention, module swapping? It takes like what one or two minutes to swap a couple modules.
Don't even get me started about a pirate boss.....ugh

Grow up, stop whining or find yourselfs another game when ED is so crappy to you.
 
Last edited:
I'm waiting for all the "if you don't like the game so much, leave" threads to make their run. They always seem to come first. Tomorrow, others will read my post critically and make thoughtful responses. I'll give my own response then.
 
For someone who wants a thoughtful response, ignorantly dismissing everything including some very thoughtful responses that happened to disagree with your opinion, probably is the single most idiotic possible way to accomplish that.

... but don't take that the wrong way. I mean I'm literally saying you're stupid, that you're an idiot, but you know, don't take that the wrong way.
 
Last edited:
I'm waiting for all the "if you don't like the game so much, leave" threads to make their run. They always seem to come first. Tomorrow, others will read my post critically and make thoughtful responses. I'll give my own response then.

Maybe you could take some of that time to edit your post into something more constructive and you could skip that phase entirely. I see good points in there but they're kind of covered in saline and snark. Not the best springboard for a rational discussion, but it does make for a fairly decent sniper range.
 
Don't blame the troops, when you should be having the generals executed by firing squad.

"Lions, led by donkeys"- the assessment of the Royal Army by the Germans during World War 1.
 
  • Like (+1)
Reactions: NW3
No. They're human. Make mistakes. And work hard, for people that like to endlessly tell them, that they 'suck'.

Frontier needs a QC team, to validate changes (I'm convinced of that more than ever) but people seem to believe they are (suddenly) development gurus, whereas Frontier are somehow hopeless.

If it was easy to develop exceptional games, that are robust and wildly successful, everyone would. It's actually insanely stupidly difficult. The litany of failed attempts, and broken examples, tells us this.

I agree. As a software engineer, I feel that FD needs more automated "unit tests". Unit tests are laborious to write, tedious to update, and worth their weight in Gold-Pressed Latinum.

Software engineering is much harder than "programming". The software I work on for a living has tens of thousands of source files (seriously). Making significant changes without breaking things is really tough.

Bugs happen in programming and game development, that's just a fact of the industry. Elite does get it's fair share of bugs during development, that's for sure, but all games do. What is particularly bad about Frontier and Elite though is how many of these bugs actually get released to live.

That's not so much the programmers fault as bugs are simply unavoidable with a game as complex as Elite, but it makes for a good argument that Frontier needs to improve some of their quality policies and methods. I feel like Frontier often chooses to go live with bugs rather than delay to fix things first, and I'm not sure that is always a wise choice.

True, bugs are unavoidable. The trick is minimizing the ones that reach customers.

I have personally been burned (more than once) by a "simple low risk change" at the end of a release cycle, which had severe, unforeseen consequences, which necessitated expensive decisions to pull/delay a release.

I understand FD's difficult position, but sometimes it's better to go with the "the devil you know than the devil you don't."
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom