FD have gone very quiet
- Thread starter Noogillim
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This is somewhat kind of part odd the topic, it does have to do with fd communication. If they said Italian was gonna be a supported language in one of their newsletters then later didn't, that kinda proves some of the point im trying to make. That guy may have bought the game thinking this was going to happen and then it didn't. It was poor communication from fdev.
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Insults are not necessary. If you feel what this person has to say is not helping the debate just do not respond.
if you say so, carry on.
I thought it was a thread about Frontier going quiet (which oddly happens every time just before each major release).
Shrugs, Italian language support it is.
They didn't lie, the game just got bigger than they plan and the cost of doing translation vs sales made it commercially unviable. Brooks explained it in one of their posts on here,.
I can see devs becoming more and more frighten of saying anything in the future about their games if get called liars every time plans change or a feature get withdrawn or scaled down. They are artists at the end of the day sometimes their dreams are bigger than the brushes and canvas they have available and people need to understand that.
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As an Sidenote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucYhhLwIxg
This is one thing where Frontier might want to check on what others are doing a bit.
Because here Star Citizen Demonstrates something that is exactly the reason. Why People Generally think that Star Citizen is doing much more Infromation Work than Frontier.
Star Citizen attempts to Create things which are linked together demonstrating exactly what you can expect.
They do this in a Safe enviroment of having an Employee Play. And they make sure not to share all information so they can actually maintain a certain safety of being able to drop or change things later on.
However. Instead of giving you small pieces and cut outs of Scenes in which you cannot actually see the Context or Systems that are being used.
They are giving an long Demonstration which allows players to actually see how things will work and how things are done.
Rather than a Trailer they make a Lets Play of it.
And this is an very Importand Point.
Because at least for me it works this way. And I would dare say for alot of others it works Similar.
A Trailer is Mouth Watering. It makes me Interested in the Game. It makes me look for the Game and Check it out.
BUT
It wont make me Buy it
Because before I buy it. I will not check the Trailers. But the Gameplay Videos I can find Online. I will check if there is Demo Plays like this one. Gameplay Footage from Gamescom or other stuff that shows me how the Actual Game looks like
Elite Dangerous on Gamescom mostly gave us Trailers. Small and Short Video Pieces and Scattered Vague Information.
Star Citizen however did something very simple and yet incredible effective. They simply demonstrated how it looks when your playing the Game
In Terms of Information and Advertisement. It might be worth an Idea to Check over at RSI and maybe learn a bit
After all. With NMS out of the Ring so fast. Star Citizen is going to be the Main Competition for Elite Dangerous. So it might be a Good Idea to not pull Punches in a Competition with them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucYhhLwIxg
This is one thing where Frontier might want to check on what others are doing a bit.
Because here Star Citizen Demonstrates something that is exactly the reason. Why People Generally think that Star Citizen is doing much more Infromation Work than Frontier.
Star Citizen attempts to Create things which are linked together demonstrating exactly what you can expect.
They do this in a Safe enviroment of having an Employee Play. And they make sure not to share all information so they can actually maintain a certain safety of being able to drop or change things later on.
However. Instead of giving you small pieces and cut outs of Scenes in which you cannot actually see the Context or Systems that are being used.
They are giving an long Demonstration which allows players to actually see how things will work and how things are done.
Rather than a Trailer they make a Lets Play of it.
And this is an very Importand Point.
Because at least for me it works this way. And I would dare say for alot of others it works Similar.
A Trailer is Mouth Watering. It makes me Interested in the Game. It makes me look for the Game and Check it out.
BUT
It wont make me Buy it
Because before I buy it. I will not check the Trailers. But the Gameplay Videos I can find Online. I will check if there is Demo Plays like this one. Gameplay Footage from Gamescom or other stuff that shows me how the Actual Game looks like
Elite Dangerous on Gamescom mostly gave us Trailers. Small and Short Video Pieces and Scattered Vague Information.
Star Citizen however did something very simple and yet incredible effective. They simply demonstrated how it looks when your playing the Game
In Terms of Information and Advertisement. It might be worth an Idea to Check over at RSI and maybe learn a bit
After all. With NMS out of the Ring so fast. Star Citizen is going to be the Main Competition for Elite Dangerous. So it might be a Good Idea to not pull Punches in a Competition with them.
What? Are you trying to tell me that the more copies of the game sold makes it harder to translate. Not sure how this is possible. Thought eveone just had copies of the main version. Am i missing something?
Anyway this is again digressing from the main topic which is fd being quiet aslo know as lack of communication.
If their upfront and informative about any changes and the reasons why the community will understand. A few won't. But no communication and changes out of the blue will make things worse
No we don't but the devs have commented on the costs of localisation and have stated it themselves that it was commercially viable and that they would try other approaches, community translations.
As an Sidenote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucYhhLwIxg
This is one thing where Frontier might want to check on what others are doing a bit.
Because here Star Citizen Demonstrates something that is exactly the reason. Why People Generally think that Star Citizen is doing much more Infromation Work than Frontier.
Star Citizen attempts to Create things which are linked together demonstrating exactly what you can expect.
They do this in a Safe enviroment of having an Employee Play. And they make sure not to share all information so they can actually maintain a certain safety of being able to drop or change things later on.
However. Instead of giving you small pieces and cut outs of Scenes in which you cannot actually see the Context or Systems that are being used.
They are giving an long Demonstration which allows players to actually see how things will work and how things are done.
Rather than a Trailer they make a Lets Play of it.
And this is an very Importand Point.
Because at least for me it works this way. And I would dare say for alot of others it works Similar.
A Trailer is Mouth Watering. It makes me Interested in the Game. It makes me look for the Game and Check it out.
BUT
It wont make me Buy it
Because before I buy it. I will not check the Trailers. But the Gameplay Videos I can find Online. I will check if there is Demo Plays like this one. Gameplay Footage from Gamescom or other stuff that shows me how the Actual Game looks like
Elite Dangerous on Gamescom mostly gave us Trailers. Small and Short Video Pieces and Scattered Vague Information.
Star Citizen however did something very simple and yet incredible effective. They simply demonstrated how it looks when your playing the Game
In Terms of Information and Advertisement. It might be worth an Idea to Check over at RSI and maybe learn a bit
After all. With NMS out of the Ring so fast. Star Citizen is going to be the Main Competition for Elite Dangerous. So it might be a Good Idea to not pull Punches in a Competition with them.
Whether the actual game pans out or not, they are really on to something when it comes to player / community communication. They did not maje that much money by accident. Frontier was a game development company before ed and sc were a thing. Cloud emperium / RSI seemingly came out of nowhere and blew em outta the water with the amount of money they raised. If the game actually pans out ro be something it could effectively change the way game developers operate. Not a single development company wanted ro touch that game and it went on to be the most successful crowd funding project of all time. There formula for doing things is successful. Their games remains to be so. But their success so far illistrates how to treat a customer.
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As an Sidenote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucYhhLwIxg
This is one thing where Frontier might want to check on what others are doing a bit.
Because here Star Citizen Demonstrates something that is exactly the reason. Why People Generally think that Star Citizen is doing much more Infromation Work than Frontier.
Star Citizen attempts to Create things which are linked together demonstrating exactly what you can expect.
They do this in a Safe enviroment of having an Employee Play. And they make sure not to share all information so they can actually maintain a certain safety of being able to drop or change things later on.
However. Instead of giving you small pieces and cut outs of Scenes in which you cannot actually see the Context or Systems that are being used.
They are giving an long Demonstration which allows players to actually see how things will work and how things are done.
Rather than a Trailer they make a Lets Play of it.
And this is an very Importand Point.
Because at least for me it works this way. And I would dare say for alot of others it works Similar.
A Trailer is Mouth Watering. It makes me Interested in the Game. It makes me look for the Game and Check it out.
BUT
It wont make me Buy it
Because before I buy it. I will not check the Trailers. But the Gameplay Videos I can find Online. I will check if there is Demo Plays like this one. Gameplay Footage from Gamescom or other stuff that shows me how the Actual Game looks like
Elite Dangerous on Gamescom mostly gave us Trailers. Small and Short Video Pieces and Scattered Vague Information.
Star Citizen however did something very simple and yet incredible effective. They simply demonstrated how it looks when your playing the Game
In Terms of Information and Advertisement. It might be worth an Idea to Check over at RSI and maybe learn a bit
After all. With NMS out of the Ring so fast. Star Citizen is going to be the Main Competition for Elite Dangerous. So it might be a Good Idea to not pull Punches in a Competition with them.
Whether the actual game pans out or not, they are really on to something when it comes to player / community communication. They did not maje that much money by accident. Frontier was a game development company before ed and sc were a thing. Cloud emperium / RSI seemingly came out of nowhere and blew em outta the water with the amount of money they raised. If the game actually pans out ro be something it could effectively change the way game developers operate. Not a single development company wanted ro touch that game and it went on to be the most successful crowd funding project of all time. There formula for doing things is successful. Their games remains to be so. But their success so far illistrates how to treat a customer.
No what I'm saying is that the game design expanded in scope when Newsletter 31 and they have had to row back from those promises. Brookes have made comments about them decreasing the amount of languages they plan on supporting.
They didn't plan to do things like the hunt they did last week and the whole UA/UP/Barnacles mystery, which becomes all the more costly if it all have to be translated to 10 or 20 languages.
Read some of my other comments before saying that, I have criticising frontier approach to marketing. I have also criticise Frontier for there game design choices, that whole instant teleportation of ships. Over on Planet Coaster forum I have criticise Frontier for making the game a Steam exclusive and for require a steam account to play the game without hacking files.
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Have you actually ask for a refund or are you one of those gamers who think you can play the game for tens of hours and still demand a refund because one feature or another didn't make the cut during the game production or ED case continue production?
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Is everyone out of excuses for FD's poor community communication, where did everyone go?
Just remember it doesn't have to be all silence from fd like this if we as customers demand more. They have info to share. Im sure theres that one annoying bit of programming thats hounding a particular dev that hes trying to get past so the update can release. I want to know about it. This way i can understand whats up and why things are the way they are. It also lets me know they are hard at work and my money isnt wasted on them. You want my money upfront, i want to stay informed.
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I would think language difficulties would be a good reason for a refund. And again... if the scope of things has changed really good communication would have helped with any qualms about those changes.
Just remember it doesn't have to be all silence from fd like this if we as customers demand more. They have info to share. Im sure theres that one annoying bit of programming thats hounding a particular dev that hes trying to get past so the update can release. I want to know about it. This way i can understand whats up and why things are the way they are. It also lets me know they are hard at work and my money isnt wasted on them. You want my money upfront, i want to stay informed.
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I would think language difficulties would be a good reason for a refund. And again... if the scope of things has changed really good communication would have helped with any qualms about those changes.
...
In Terms of Information and Advertisement. It might be worth an Idea to Check over at RSI and maybe learn a bit
After all. With NMS out of the Ring so fast. Star Citizen is going to be the Main Competition for Elite Dangerous. So it might be a Good Idea to not pull Punches in a Competition with them.
Something I noticed and I think it has a lot to do with the development approach and communication is the amount of views the gamescom 3.0 Demo presentation has of SC vs ED.
SC has 1.3 Million and ED 30 thousand the most viewed, the 2 were upload since 2 weeks. The diference is striking.
The hype also helps but the shows were completely diferent.
I hoped a lot more of ED.
Yup... something to be said about that definitely. Theres no reason ED can't be like this as well. The game is really good and i love it. I do not like how the devs interact or communcate with the players. All these mysteries that seem to require out of game resources aren't in touch with most of the player base either.
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I think ED is a bit more of a niche game for a niche audience. I am part of that audience, I'd like ED to stay a niche game for players like me.
It does look, based on donations and hype, that SC gets a bigger audience. With more money and not releasing a full game yet, they can afford to spend more in community content, outreach and retention. I doubt FD has the money to keep people as hyped as RSI.
SC looks interesting and when it's finished I might check it out. I've watched some of their videos. I like the lore presentations, I'm a bit underwhelmed with the actual game rendering and mechanics. Plus SC looks to me like it's best played with larger groups like clans or guilds. There's a lot of in-game or real life money needed to run the larger ships. From the way I've seen it described you'll need to pay big, and realistic, amounts of money to keep your ship maintained.
I like that ED isn't that realistic in the costs department, imagine paying 10,000 credits to fill your fuel tank or 100,000 credits per torpedo? That hole in your hull, that's about 250,000 at the dry dock and 2 weeks to fix, assuming they aren't overbooked!
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Hmmmm.
Going from a Professional Viewpoint this is a bit of an Ditchy Topic.
Generally Translations are not very Expensive. I doubt Translating the entirety of Elite Dangerous would Cost more than 500 Euro.
The True Problem likely is Localization.
Which is a different Topic because it actually means Adjusting the Game towards using an Italian System and Italian System Variables in response towards Italian being used as Language.
Which would require Allocating these Localizations.
This is not exactly an Difficult Work but it is indeed Time Consuming.
Now this being too Expensive in itself is clearly not Correct.
Even Including Localization**. This would likely stay below 2000 Euro.
The thing Stopping FD from doing it. Is two other Reasons.
1.
If they did this. Any Future Addons of Text, Names etc etc. Would require to be Translated for this as well.
Which thanks to the small amounts of Text would then Run an Fairly Inefficient Additional Cost for each and every Update to get Text Translated and Localized.**
2.
If they added Italian which is a Fairly small User Group. All other Groups Bigger than Italian would demand their Language to be Added as well.
Currently we got English, Russian, German, French and Spanish. All of which are Languages that are really really dominant in the Internet. Almost anyone will recognize these Languages even if he cannot speak them.
So these can be added without most People feeling treated unfairly.
Chinese, Japanese and Hindi would likely be Included if the Game was intended to expand into the Eastern Markets.
But a Language like Italian which is not a common sight in Internet Games.
Would result in alot of People demanding that their own Native Language like for example. Polish, Romanian and Arabian are added. Turkey would likely be right there as well.
And while 1000-2000 Euro for a Localization is not that much. If you suddenly started to go for every Language there is. Even if your actual User Group from this Country is Fairly small. You would very fast Run up Costs of 10-20.000 Euro which would then clearly not be Cost Effective anymore.
Ultimately its likely that FD is not expanding Localizations Further. Because it would increase Peoples Demand to add even more Localizations and get even more Languages available. Which would then Result in either more Costs for them. Or even more Dissappointed Users.
**
Above I talked about Translation and Localization as seperate things.
Now pls note Localization means to Translate a Game for another Language.
This does include Translation usually.
But a Game works by having Buttons, Names, Variables, Equipment etc etc etc. Displaying you a Text or Name.
So while a Translation of the Text and Names etc in the Game. Costs you Fairly little (200-500 Euro if you Hire a Professional Translator for it)
The Time to add all these Words into the Right Places and actually make sure that these Translations are actually ending up Correctly inside the Game. Is another Story. And Requires quite a bit of Work.
The Cheapest way to do it is by using an Automatic Program for it.
Which simply Automaticly Translates and Replaces all Words in the Game by an Counterpart of the Right Language.
But this is very Wonky in most cases. Because the Context might end up Screwing you over by using the wrong word for that Context.
Just to make an simple example within Elite Dangerous.
The German Localization for the Pip Management.
Original Text in the Game.
Divert Power to Engines
Divert Power to Weapons
Divert Power to Systems
Balance Power Distribution
German Text in the Game.
Energie zum Antrieb umlenken
Energie zu den Waffen umlenken
Energie zu den Systemen umlenken
Energieverteilung abgleichen
And here if you are German you can already see something thats not entirely good.
The Translation was not done properly. And likely allocated by an automated system.
Let me Translate you this German Text back into English so you see why a German has to Chuckle at this.
And then also Provide you with an proper Translation.
Energie zum Antrieb umlenken = Redirect Energy to the Engine
Energie zu den Waffen umlenken = Redirect Energy to the Weapons
Energie zu den Systemen umlenken = Redirect Energy to the Systems
Energieverteilung abgleichen = Match Energy-distributor (The joke is if you used Google Translate for this to Translate it into English you would make it even more funny cause it says "Syndicate energy distribution" which is hilarios xD
The Correct German Translations would have been slightly different.
Energie auf den Antrieb umleiten
Energie auf die Waffen umleiten
Energie auf die Systeme umleiten
Energieverteilung ausgleichen.
You notice. That the Game here makes 3 mistakes.
1.
It uses the wrong word by saying "umlenken" instead of "umleiten"
Because "umlenken" in German is leaning way more towards changing the direction of something physical.
When talking about Energie you say "umleiten" instead
2.
This is minor and could actually be left alone.
The Game says "Zu den Waffen" rather than "Auf die Waffen" Which is both fine and acceptable.
But "Zu den Waffen" sounds fairly strange. It sounds forced and not very natural
3.
And finally a Grave Translation Mistake.
"Abgleichen" instead of "Ausgleichen"
Abgleichen in German means to Match something to either an Base Value or to something else. For example the Police Matches the Finger Prints of an Fugitive to these of an Wanted Criminal to see if he is the same.
However this Translation in the Game and in context with the Energieverteilung (Power Distribution) makes little to no sense. Type it into Google and you.ll notice the Automatic Translation cant even make sense of it and ends up telling you some funny results
The word they looked for was "Ausgleichen" which means Balancing.
Now I am actually Impressed a bit.
Cause the First Translation you get for Power in that sense. Would be "Leistung" So I am pleasantly surprised that they actually tried to translate this and did not fall right into the first trap
Its actually speaking for an Manual Translation that they Translated "Power Distribution" as "Energieverteilung". A Machine would likely have translated it as "Leistungs Verteilung" which talks about Physical Power rather than Electric Power
Energie Verteilung would Translate back as Energy Distribution. Rather than Power Distribution. But in this case makes alot more sense
But its also clear that the one who translated this was not a Native Speaker. As he Translated it too literally thus ending up using an translation that just doesnt match up with the meaning in the Game
Doing Localizations like this requires far more work than just Translating a simple Text. Which makes it more Expensive and Time Consuming than a Normal Translation.
So Final Result.
FDs Decision to not do this is Understandable. Even if I think that the Cost Argument is something they only put out front as an cover to not give an more Detailed Explanation.
Greetz Sun
I think ED is a bit more of a niche game for a niche audience. I am part of that audience, I'd like ED to stay a niche game for players like me.
It does look, based on donations and hype, that SC gets a bigger audience. With more money and not releasing a full game yet, they can afford to spend more in community content, outreach and retention. I doubt FD has the money to keep people as hyped as RSI.
SC looks interesting and when it's finished I might check it out. I've watched some of their videos. I like the lore presentations, I'm a bit underwhelmed with the actual game rendering and mechanics. Plus SC looks to me like it's best played with larger groups like clans or guilds. There's a lot of in-game or real life money needed to run the larger ships. From the way I've seen it described you'll need to pay big, and realistic, amounts of money to keep your ship maintained.
I like that ED isn't that realistic in the costs department, imagine paying 10,000 credits to fill your fuel tank or 100,000 credits per torpedo? That hole in your hull, that's about 250,000 at the dry dock and 2 weeks to fix, assuming they aren't overbooked!
Not ro be rude... but this threads topic is FDs communication or lack there of
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Hmmmm.
Going from a Professional Viewpoint this is a bit of an Ditchy Topic.
Generally Translations are not very Expensive. I doubt Translating the entirety of Elite Dangerous would Cost more than 500 Euro.
The True Problem likely is Localization.
Which is a different Topic because it actually means Adjusting the Game towards using an Italian System and Italian System Variables in response towards Italian being used as Language.
Which would require Allocating these Localizations.
This is not exactly an Difficult Work but it is indeed Time Consuming.
Now this being too Expensive in itself is clearly not Correct.
Even Including Localization**. This would likely stay below 2000 Euro.
The thing Stopping FD from doing it. Is two other Reasons.
1.
If they did this. Any Future Addons of Text, Names etc etc. Would require to be Translated for this as well.
Which thanks to the small amounts of Text would then Run an Fairly Inefficient Additional Cost for each and every Update to get Text Translated and Localized.**
2.
If they added Italian which is a Fairly small User Group. All other Groups Bigger than Italian would demand their Language to be Added as well.
Currently we got English, Russian, German, French and Spanish. All of which are Languages that are really really dominant in the Internet. Almost anyone will recognize these Languages even if he cannot speak them.
So these can be added without most People feeling treated unfairly.
Chinese, Japanese and Hindi would likely be Included if the Game was intended to expand into the Eastern Markets.
But a Language like Italian which is not a common sight in Internet Games.
Would result in alot of People demanding that their own Native Language like for example. Polish, Romanian and Arabian are added. Turkey would likely be right there as well.
And while 1000-2000 Euro for a Localization is not that much. If you suddenly started to go for every Language there is. Even if your actual User Group from this Country is Fairly small. You would very fast Run up Costs of 10-20.000 Euro which would then clearly not be Cost Effective anymore.
Ultimately its likely that FD is not expanding Localizations Further. Because it would increase Peoples Demand to add even more Localizations and get even more Languages available. Which would then Result in either more Costs for them. Or even more Dissappointed Users.
**
Above I talked about Translation and Localization as seperate things.
Now pls note Localization means to Translate a Game for another Language.
This does include Translation usually.
But a Game works by having Buttons, Names, Variables, Equipment etc etc etc. Displaying you a Text or Name.
So while a Translation of the Text and Names etc in the Game. Costs you Fairly little (200-500 Euro if you Hire a Professional Translator for it)
The Time to add all these Words into the Right Places and actually make sure that these Translations are actually ending up Correctly inside the Game. Is another Story. And Requires quite a bit of Work.
The Cheapest way to do it is by using an Automatic Program for it.
Which simply Automaticly Translates and Replaces all Words in the Game by an Counterpart of the Right Language.
But this is very Wonky in most cases. Because the Context might end up Screwing you over by using the wrong word for that Context.
Just to make an simple example within Elite Dangerous.
The German Localization for the Pip Management.
Original Text in the Game.
Divert Power to Engines
Divert Power to Weapons
Divert Power to Systems
Balance Power Distribution
German Text in the Game.
Energie zum Antrieb umlenken
Energie zu den Waffen umlenken
Energie zu den Systemen umlenken
Energieverteilung abgleichen
And here if you are German you can already see something thats not entirely good.
The Translation was not done properly. And likely allocated by an automated system.
Let me Translate you this German Text back into English so you see why a German has to Chuckle at this.
And then also Provide you with an proper Translation.
Energie zum Antrieb umlenken = Redirect Energy to the Engine
Energie zu den Waffen umlenken = Redirect Energy to the Weapons
Energie zu den Systemen umlenken = Redirect Energy to the Systems
Energieverteilung abgleichen = Match Energy-distributor (The joke is if you used Google Translate for this to Translate it into English you would make it even more funny cause it says "Syndicate energy distribution" which is hilarios xD
The Correct German Translations would have been slightly different.
Energie auf den Antrieb umleiten
Energie auf die Waffen umleiten
Energie auf die Systeme umleiten
Energieverteilung ausgleichen.
You notice. That the Game here makes 3 mistakes.
1.
It uses the wrong word by saying "umlenken" instead of "umleiten"
Because "umlenken" in German is leaning way more towards changing the direction of something physical.
When talking about Energie you say "umleiten" instead
2.
This is minor and could actually be left alone.
The Game says "Zu den Waffen" rather than "Auf die Waffen" Which is both fine and acceptable.
But "Zu den Waffen" sounds fairly strange. It sounds forced and not very natural
3.
And finally a Grave Translation Mistake.
"Abgleichen" instead of "Ausgleichen"
Abgleichen in German means to Match something to either an Base Value or to something else. For example the Police Matches the Finger Prints of an Fugitive to these of an Wanted Criminal to see if he is the same.
However this Translation in the Game and in context with the Energieverteilung (Power Distribution) makes little to no sense. Type it into Google and you.ll notice the Automatic Translation cant even make sense of it and ends up telling you some funny results
The word they looked for was "Ausgleichen" which means Balancing.
Now I am actually Impressed a bit.
Cause the First Translation you get for Power in that sense. Would be "Leistung" So I am pleasantly surprised that they actually tried to translate this and did not fall right into the first trap
Its actually speaking for an Manual Translation that they Translated "Power Distribution" as "Energieverteilung". A Machine would likely have translated it as "Leistungs Verteilung" which talks about Physical Power rather than Electric Power
Energie Verteilung would Translate back as Energy Distribution. Rather than Power Distribution. But in this case makes alot more sense
But its also clear that the one who translated this was not a Native Speaker. As he Translated it too literally thus ending up using an translation that just doesnt match up with the meaning in the Game
Doing Localizations like this requires far more work than just Translating a simple Text. Which makes it more Expensive and Time Consuming than a Normal Translation.
So Final Result.
FDs Decision to not do this is Understandable. Even if I think that the Cost Argument is something they only put out front as an cover to not give an more Detailed Explanation.
Greetz Sun
That was very informative... thanks... see the little details matter folks. Now if FD had communicated these intricate details there might be some folks that would now understand why this was not done. Instead silence on the subject provoked anger instead
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