FD please answer this enquiry. I've touched upon this before.

[Miko]

I know this isn't critical on the grand scheme of things, but could someone at FD please enlighten me as to why HUGE lasers have the same fall off ranges as their small counterparts?

I've recently taken a liking to HUGE burst lasers but I feel the minimum fall off range at 500m really doesn't make much sense when the smaller laser has the same fall off damage range despite enormous energy differences between two.

Can't these be doubled to a more practical 1km since most combat takes place between 1-2km, unless somebody is stuck you your hull.

Could anyone share any details on the actual fall off damage effect? At 1km for example, what kind of penalty to the damage are we talking about?

P. S. I am aware of engineering long range or focused, but I still feel the disparity by default between the small and huge should be addressed.

Thanks.

 

[Kaocraft]

The Huge laser does more damage than the small laser. They both have the same falloff range because of course they do. But after 500m, the Huge laser still does more damage than the small laser. I don't know why you think it makes any sense that the Huge laser would have a greater falloff range "because energy". The energy is already accounted for in the base damage stat, which, again, is higher than the small and remains so at all ranges.

 

[Dagwit]

Falloff range is determined by the dispersion of the beam - its tendency to spread out - not its intensity. A huge laser will have a more intense beam than a small one but there's no reason to assume that it must have less dispersion.

 

[Miko]

OK, so with most builds using high thermal resistances and lasers losing 50%+ of their damage from 1.5km onwards, do you feel the 500m makes them as viable as they should be in the larger classes?

Yes, they have higher base damage, but that's logical. It still doesn't make them worth taking over a huge multicannon that has a 2km fall off range.

I know it's down to personal opinion, but I really think the lasers need that fall off increased to 1km.

It's just ridiculous that a laser by default literally begs to be engineered with long range only mods.

 

[Aashenfox]

I did the math on this once for efficient beams vs long range, but I don't have it to hand. so below are guesstimates.

Caveats: For beams fall off is 600m, so for pulse and burst, you can reduce the effective ranges slightly further still, as described below.

What it comes down to is the average distance at which the engagement is fought. If you fight at an average 1150m(ish) or more, you'll get more dps out of a mod that increases falloff compared to EFFICIENT (this was the math I did, that's the only reason I'm referring to efficient). If you are using some other mod that does not increase fall off, OR add dps (as efficient does), then that range becomes even shorter, more like 1000m.

Bottom line, if your flying style and your loadout and your opponents loadout all dictate you need to maintain distance (they are frag, MC, Cannon or torp users), use a mod that reduces falloff, long range or focused (focused is still only 1000m, but that is still DOUBLE what it was before, and not many battles are fought at more than an average 2km).

Extra bottom line...if you have the DISTRIBUTOR AND PIP SKILL, long range is the superior laser mod in almost all cases, except those where you are deliberately trying to stay close to the enemy (always within 1000m), and in that case, all of a sudden efficient starts getting ever better as you get closer to 500m average engagement range.

P.S. I realise this is anecdotal and doesn't address the question in the op. Hopefully it gives some design insight though.

 

[Brrokk]

Lasers... Fall-off ranges... Another sad physics failure. We've already bounced lasers off the moon, which is 1.3ls away.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

Lasers... Fall-off ranges... Another sad physics failure. We've already bounced lasers off the moon, which is 1.3ls away.

100% and suddeny 0 % damage wouldn't be more logical either, but I think the falloff starst way too early, which is why you have to use your modification depending on what your ship can. Sure short range sounds awesome. But it requires a very specific ship that able to stay mostly on range for a proper amount of time.

 

[pzykozomatik]

Even worse, our ship lights have an effective range of a few dozen meters. The LED lamp on my bicycle does a better job at illuminating what's in front of me.

 

[cyberus]

No matter how much I like that lasers could be even close to viable weapon in the game I came to conclusion that it is absolutely most worthless weapon in the game even whit engineer mods.

The combination of
Capacitor draw, damage falloff , and the damage dealt vs used energy is simply what makes this weapons totally garbage compared to other weapons in game.

Now I have safely parked those in storage waiting for better times for lasers.... but the hope is very small they probably never will be any good compared to other much better options out there.

 

[Miko]

You see I am utilising them for phasing, which is useful in a long fight against FDL's etc. But generally, they are far too weak compared to the better options. Incendiary Multicannons are far more useful at stripping shields generally, and retain an excellent fall off damage range, albeit projectile travel time sometimes resulting in fewer hits.

I just wish lasers would be made more viable by at minimum just buffing that fall off range to double what it sits at currently.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[XW_Ziggy]

My only complaint about lasers is their overall effectiveness compared to other weapons. I remember back when polls were a thing on these forums that most people thought they weren't balanced well against other weapon types.

The combination of short range, high capacitor draw, low absolute damage, abysmal hull damage, and high thermal load is not even remotely worth the advantage that they don't require ammo. Synthesis is dirt cheap and can even be performed in combat, plus there are high capacity mods for other types of weapon anyway, meaning you can fight 20+ encounters before having to worry about re-arming.

Realistically, I'd like to see either the WEP draw reduced and all their other downsides kept, or give them a damage upgrade for the insane WEP draw they use.

Lasers are a lazy PVE option when the amount of damage doesn't matter in the slightest but in serious combat I wouldn't touch lasers with a ten-foot pole; everything else does double the damage (often much more than double the effective damage) and still leaves more pips for SYS or ENG anyway.

 

[Aashenfox]

You see I am utilising them for phasing, which is useful in a long fight against FDL's etc. But generally, they are far too weak compared to the better options. Incendiary Multicannons are far more useful at stripping shields generally, and retain an excellent fall off damage range, albeit projectile travel time sometimes resulting in fewer hits.

I just wish lasers would be made more viable by at minimum just buffing that fall off range to double what it sits at currently.

But that's just my opinion.

I don't mean to brag, but good luck hitting me consistently at 1k plus, with anything that flies at less than 2kmps, while MCs are slightly faster than that, I can still avoid some of your burst by being unpredictable. Lasers are hit scan, if I can aim I will always hit you. That's partly why falloff, for balance.

 

[Aashenfox]

My only complaint about lasers is their overall effectiveness compared to other weapons. I remember back when polls were a thing on these forums that most people thought they weren't balanced well against other weapon types.

The combination of short range, high capacitor draw, low absolute damage, abysmal hull damage, and high thermal load is not even remotely worth the advantage that they don't require ammo. Synthesis is dirt cheap and can even be performed in combat, plus there are high capacity mods for other types of weapon anyway, meaning you can fight 20+ encounters before having to worry about re-arming.

Realistically, I'd like to see either the WEP draw reduced and all their other downsides kept, or give them a damage upgrade for the insane WEP draw they use.

Lasers are a lazy PVE option when the amount of damage doesn't matter in the slightest but in serious combat I wouldn't touch lasers with a ten-foot pole; everything else does double the damage (often much more than double the effective damage) and still leaves more pips for SYS or ENG anyway.

I agree, they need something. Perhaps a mod that turns their damage to absolute. Maybe plasma slug for lasers, converts all damage to absolute but uses a small amount of fuel for each shot. Just thinking out loud, cos mechanics need to be interesting, straight buffing and nerfing is... I dunno, lazy?

 

[Miko]

I don't mean to brag, but good luck hitting me consistently at 1k plus, with anything that flies at less than 2kmps, while MCs are slightly faster than that, I can still avoid some of your burst by being unpredictable. Lasers are hit scan, if I can aim I will always hit you. That's partly why falloff, for balance.

Get on PS4 and face the Miko! Lol

 

[Thatchinho]

Lasers... Fall-off ranges... Another sad physics failure. We've already bounced lasers off the moon, which is 1.3ls away.

It's really not a physics failure. Different lasers would be used differently for different purposes.

For a cutting or weaponised laser, as a general principle you'd need to maximise the energy density on the target. That means focussing the beam so that it's narrowest point is on the target, or equivalently, at the same distance as the target. That gives an optimal range, and a damage fall off either side of that optimal range. Once you get to twice that optimal range, the beam starts to spread out to wider than it was when it left the laser an continues to spread more and more, becoming less and less effective.

As the lasers aren't being used for something at a fixed distance, then things have to be modified to account for that, but the basic principle remains.

With the moon, its a very different situation. It's not cutting or weaponised lasers that are being bounced off the moon. Also, it's reflectors that the laser beam is being bounced off, so they need to be hit by the laser beam, but they're a very small target a long distance away, so there needs to be enough spread on the beam to cover a reasonable area, so that some parts of it will cover the target. There also needs to be sufficient spread for some of the returning light (from the small % of the original beam that hits the refector) to hit the detector. It's a tiny amount that actually returns to the detectors and they have to be very sensitive in order for it to work.

In short, the moon situation really has very little bearing on what would happen with laser weapons.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

I agree, they need something. Perhaps a mod that turns their damage to absolute. Maybe plasma slug for lasers, converts all damage to absolute but uses a small amount of fuel for each shot. Just thinking out loud, cos mechanics need to be interesting, straight buffing and nerfing is... I dunno, lazy?

I would rpefer to nerf "absolute" damage from other weapons, makes no sense that a weapon is neither excplosive, nor ballistic nor thermal. Same for ships colliding. Colliding ships should be highly ballistically, with a part being energy when one of the ships has shields.
Then I would also get rid of the rails piercing which is totally the same across all sizes. Not very logically, even less compared to lasers which do have size related piericings.

What really broke the deal is engineering when shields became so strong, that the high energy draw of lasers doesn't supply any proper serious damage anymore. Another one is, that resistances by engineering additionally tweaked the previously strong vs shields thermans into now even less effective weapons and all these tweaks downsides was mostly energy draw, which PP engineering counterd easily. On the other side laser tweaks by engineers usually have a heavy downside on many possibilities. This really shifted the value of Energy weapons vs other ships by too far.

 

[XW_Ziggy]

What really broke the deal is engineering when shields became so strong, that the high energy draw of lasers doesn't supply any proper serious damage anymore. Another one is, that resistances by engineering additionally tweaked the previously strong vs shields thermals into now even less effective weapons.

Both these points are serious issues that have each had their own beta tests and megathreads discussing.

1. Mega-shields are still a thing, and now - thanks to Guardian Shield Boosters, the problem has infected smaller ships too. An attempt to nerf shields failed, due to massive whining from a vocal minority during the beta feedback.
2. When it comes to "thermal vs shield, kinetic/explosive vs hull, lasers' low DPS is silly because most players will engineer for flat damage resistances anyway. Diminishing resistance boosters was supposed to be the solution for resistance stacking but due to a long-unfixed bug, the diminishing returns do not affect the shield generator, nor their extremely potent engineering mods.

/facepalm.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Both these points are serious issues that have each had their own beta tests and megathreads discussing.

1. Mega-shields are still a thing, and now - thanks to Guardian Shield Boosters, the problem has infected smaller ships too. An attempt to nerf shields failed, due to massive whining from a vocal minority during the beta feedback.
2. When it comes to "thermal vs shield, kinetic/explosive vs hull, lasers' low DPS is silly because most players will engineer for flat damage resistances anyway. Diminishing resistance boosters was supposed to be the solution for resistance stacking but due to a long-unfixed bug, the diminishing returns do not affect the shield generator, nor their extremely potent engineering mods.

/facepalm.

Physical Contact works wonders.
Can't quite get that shield down? Give that ship a little tap and watch it pop.

 

[Eros]

It's really not a physics failure. Different lasers would be used differently for different purposes.

For a cutting or weaponised laser, as a general principle you'd need to maximise the energy density on the target. That means focussing the beam so that it's narrowest point is on the target, or equivalently, at the same distance as the target. That gives an optimal range, and a damage fall off either side of that optimal range. Once you get to twice that optimal range, the beam starts to spread out to wider than it was when it left the laser an continues to spread more and more, becoming less and less effective.

As the lasers aren't being used for something at a fixed distance, then things have to be modified to account for that, but the basic principle remains.

With the moon, its a very different situation. It's not cutting or weaponised lasers that are being bounced off the moon. Also, it's reflectors that the laser beam is being bounced off, so they need to be hit by the laser beam, but they're a very small target a long distance away, so there needs to be enough spread on the beam to cover a reasonable area, so that some parts of it will cover the target. There also needs to be sufficient spread for some of the returning light (from the small % of the original beam that hits the refector) to hit the detector. It's a tiny amount that actually returns to the detectors and they have to be very sensitive in order for it to work.

In short, the moon situation really has very little bearing on what would happen with laser weapons.

Finally the first person who said something that made sense. Lasers while coherent and directional, do suffer from dispersion, some focusing is most often required to confine a beam. The other thing that is done to get the power is to use multiple sources and converge them. Again this means that unless you adaptively focus, you end up with a fixed amount of power and a sweet spot, after which you get fall off.

Even the laser experiments done bouncing light off of the moon, if people thing that you fire a laser, turn it off and then see a nice huge laser pulse come back, then they are sadly to be mistaken. A high power laser is used and you get like hand full of photons back on large collection arrays.

 

[znôrt]

You see I am utilising them for phasing, which is useful in a long fight against FDL's etc. But generally, they are far too weak compared to the better options. Incendiary Multicannons are far more useful at stripping shields generally, and retain an excellent fall off damage range, albeit projectile travel time sometimes resulting in fewer hits.

I just wish lasers would be made more viable by at minimum just buffing that fall off range to double what it sits at currently.

But that's just my opinion.

yeah, it could be argued that your tactic is already viable at short range, like many other tactics or weapons have a range (p)reference. burst laser has always been short range (try cytoscramblers!). you can even get around that with the magical long range spell but you are bluntly asking for the range limitation to be ignored in this case, which makes it look like you want it all and are not really making a good case about how long range phasing would contribute to interesting fight dynamics or more balance.