FD, statement please! Finally got the immense dimension of the reputation bug!

[Arubeto]

I think I finally understand how far the current reputation bug - and yes, I now am totally sure it's a bug - goes.

Like I described in another thread (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79005), my reputation with 3 minor faction associated with the Empire took a hit after I got caught by the police smuggling some stolen cargo. As a consequence, my reputation with those subfaction as well as with the Empire main faction dropped from "neutral" to "unfriendly" in the corresponding system. I first assumed the main faction's reputation in a specific system is only just local and based upon the reputations of the associated subfactions. But that seems to be wrong:
In a vain attempt to redeem myself I managed to increase my standing with all three subfactions to "neutral" again by doing numerous humanitarian and other legal missions, but the Empire itself remained "unfriendly".

When I got to another system, where I've never even been before, the Empire was still "unfriendly" there, and even worse: all three Empire-subfaction - with which I never interacted before - were "unfriendly" as well.

This amounts to more or less the following:

reputation drop of one minor Empire-associated subfaction from "neutral" to "unfriendly"
|
V
reputation drop with the entire Empire main faction from "neutral" to "unfriendly"
|
V
reputation drop with every Empire subfaction in every system!
|
V
every Empire-related subfaction needs to be brought back up from "unfriendly" to "neutral" individually!!!
(Even though you initially only dropped reputation with one little subfaction!!)​

I was able to verify this by jumping to at least ten other Empire-controlled systems I have never been to before. In each and every one of them, my Empire-main- and subfaction reputation was at "unfriendly"!

In this current version every reputation based gameplay is totally impossible. How should I increase my reputation with hundreds of systems and factions after receiving a fine once in one single system?

Please FD, make fixing this bug a top priority! I think it is even more severe than the few remaining crashs or disconnects (which I haven't got one since release).

 

[Barns]

Agreed it needs some sort of statement or clarification or acknowledgement that there's an issue. Me, I'm just staying well away from anything rep-related atm until it's fixed, which is a shame because I'd much rather be taking part in the slave story stuff than pure trading, but trading's about the only rep-safe thing to do!

 

[Arubeto]

Exactly, this more or less prevents any real interaction with the main factions and the game world atm.

Michael Brookes or anyone else at FD, please make a comment about this!

 

[Arubeto]

Sorry for bumping this so shamelessly, but I really think this issue needs more attention. Am I the only one stuck with a galaxy of "unfriendly" sub factions?

 

[RedWizzard]

There is no bug, it's working as intended. It works like this: your reputation with a minor faction that is affiliated with a major faction has two components: reputation with that minor faction specifically and your reputation with the major faction. If your reputation with the Empire is "unfriendly" and your minor-faction-specific reputation with a particular minor faction is "neutral" then the minor faction will treat you as "unfriendly". That's why every minor faction you've never seen before effectively defaults to unfriendly. But you don't need to raise each minor faction individually, you only need to raise the major faction reputation.

You need to use both the status panel and the mission summaries to get an accurate picture of where you are. The status panel shows the major-faction-specifc reputation for major factions and the overall reputation for minor factions (combined major-faction-specific and minor-faction-specific reputation). The mission summaries show the minor-faction-specific reputation for the faction that offered the mission.

So, in your case the timeline is:
1. Caught smuggling causing Empire major faction reputation dropped to "unfriendly" (minor-faction-reputation specific reputation for one of the minor factions in the system may also have dropped but I don't think so as then that faction would probably have shown as "hostile").
2. All Empire minor factions factor the major faction reputation in and so also become "unfriendly". Effectively they'd all get worse by one step so "allied" would become "friendly", "friendly" would become "neutral", etc.
3. Work to improve faction standing with minor factions (missions/trading). This will also improve Empire major faction standing to a smaller degree.
4. Eventually Empire major faction reputation returns to "neutral". All Empire minor faction reputations will effectively take a step upwards so all remaining "unfriendly" minor factions will also become "neutral", "neutral" will become "friendly", etc.

Note that while I was talking about steps up and down that was just a simplification. The reputation values are actually more fine-grained than that. It is possible to be "neutral but nearly friendly" and if that was the case for the major faction and for the minor-faction-specific reputation for a minor faction then the minor faction would show as "friendly".

The main issue here is that (IMO) the reputation drop from getting caught smuggling (and other offenses) is too high. I believe it has been toned down once already but it is still too easy to get offside with the major factions. The second issue is that the reputation system is a bit opaque - it's not that obvious how it works. But neither of these issues are bugs as such.

 

[murraypaul]

every Empire-related subfaction needs to be brought back up from "unfriendly" to "neutral" individually!!!
(Even though you initially only dropped reputation with one little subfaction!!)

No, because positive reputation trickles up and down as well. So as you improve your reputation with the main Empire faction, that improves your reputation with all of the sub-factions.
The problem is that the initial reputation drop is far too harsh.

 

[adam]

Looks like you may have found the root of the issue..

The core bug is step 3 of your diagram.

And the (correct) gameplay mechanic of step 4 becomes an impossibility when the step 3 bug has made every subfaction in the galaxy unfriendly.

 

[PLF]

Really I wouldn't worry about it, Rep in the game is about as important as rep on a forum, it makes no difference.

 

[BigDaddio]

Why do you people want every single game mechanic explained in minute detail? For years people had great fun trying to figure it out for themselves or with friends.

 

[adam]

Really I wouldn't worry about it, Rep in the game is about as important as rep on a forum, it makes no difference.

Is makes a difference as to the missions you have available, and whether ships shoot you - so I'd say it does make a difference?

 

[RedWizzard]

Looks like you may have found the root of the issue..

The core bug is step 3 of your diagram.

And the (correct) gameplay mechanic of step 4 becomes an impossibility when the step 3 bug has made every subfaction in the galaxy unfriendly.

No, the diagram is wrong. You haven't lost reputation with every subfaction, it only looks that way. Repair your reputation with the major faction and all subfactions will follow.

 

[Nauht]

While I'm in total agreement that the rep system is totally borked - not how they're intending it to work with main rep and then minor local systems rep but rather on the number that drops for one infraction and gained again. Those numbers need tweaking.

BUT - you're a smuggler. You have to avoid the ISS/Feds/authorities at any cost. Even the most corrupt government still has to put on a public face. They'll get you to smuggle in their cigars ob the sly but will jail you and disavow you in public.

You have to run from fights, even if the bounty seems huge, and offload your smuggled goods before you get caught. Sometimes you can't run but just like in real life, thems the breaks and you'll get busted.

 

[Arubeto]

There is no bug, it's working as intended. It works like this: your reputation with a minor faction that is affiliated with a major faction has two components: reputation with that minor faction specifically and your reputation with the major faction. If your reputation with the Empire is "unfriendly" and your minor-faction-specific reputation with a particular minor faction is "neutral" then the minor faction will treat you as "unfriendly". That's why every minor faction you've never seen before effectively defaults to unfriendly. But you don't need to raise each minor faction individually, you only need to raise the major faction reputation.

You need to use both the status panel and the mission summaries to get an accurate picture of where you are. The status panel shows the major-faction-specifc reputation for major factions and the overall reputation for minor factions (combined major-faction-specific and minor-faction-specific reputation). The mission summaries show the minor-faction-specific reputation for the faction that offered the mission.

So, in your case the timeline is:
1. Caught smuggling causing Empire major faction reputation dropped to "unfriendly" (minor-faction-reputation specific reputation for one of the minor factions in the system may also have dropped but I don't think so as then that faction would probably have shown as "hostile").
2. All Empire minor factions factor the major faction reputation in and so also become "unfriendly". Effectively they'd all get worse by one step so "allied" would become "friendly", "friendly" would become "neutral", etc.
3. Work to improve faction standing with minor factions (missions/trading). This will also improve Empire major faction standing to a smaller degree.
4. Eventually Empire major faction reputation returns to "neutral". All Empire minor faction reputations will effectively take a step upwards so all remaining "unfriendly" minor factions will also become "neutral", "neutral" will become "friendly", etc.

Note that while I was talking about steps up and down that was just a simplification. The reputation values are actually more fine-grained than that. It is possible to be "neutral but nearly friendly" and if that was the case for the major faction and for the minor-faction-specific reputation for a minor faction then the minor faction would show as "friendly".

The main issue here is that (IMO) the reputation drop from getting caught smuggling (and other offenses) is too high. I believe it has been toned down once already but it is still too easy to get offside with the major factions. The second issue is that the reputation system is a bit opaque - it's not that obvious how it works. But neither of these issues are bugs as such.

Ok, thanks for the explanation. So, this mean effectively I didn't even decrease reputation with some minor faction when receiving a fine for smuggling to begin with, but instead suffered a reputation loss with the main-Empire faction, which in turn acts as some kind of offset for the minor faction reputations? So if I'd just see the minor faction reputations without the Empire reputation setting them off, they'd indeed all still be "neutral"? And the few that I managed to return to "neutral" actually are already "friendly" if the negative main faction offset is removed?

That makes sense, but indeed is not intuitive at all. And since I already finished at least 30 humanitarian missions that don't even reward me credits but just reputation, just to regain my neutral status with the Empire, I think regaining just a single reputation level is off by a long shot. I mean, how many more reputation missions am I supposed to do to counteract one little smuggler run? This is ridiculous!

While I'm in total agreement that the rep system is totally borked - not how they're intending it to work with main rep and then minor local systems rep but rather on the number that drops for one infraction and gained again. Those numbers need tweaking.

BUT - you're a smuggler. You have to avoid the ISS/Feds/authorities at any cost. Even the most corrupt government still has to put on a public face. They'll get you to smuggle in their cigars ob the sly but will jail you and disavow you in public.

You have to run from fights, even if the bounty seems huge, and offload your smuggled goods before you get caught. Sometimes you can't run but just like in real life, thems the breaks and you'll get busted.

Actually, no, I am not really a smuggler. Normally I am just a trader, the smuggling was very out of the ordinary for me, not my usual business. I just picked up some rebel transmission at a USS. All the other times i was doing totally legal trades. So it's pretty unrealistic to slowly build up a name as a reliable trader via doing lots of trade runs and delivery mission and then suddenly becoming a persona non grata in every system in the galaxy after one small smuggling attempt.

Why do you people want every single game mechanic explained in minute detail? For years people had great fun trying to figure it out for themselves or with friends.

Because it seems broken. It's something that hasn't been designed in a way that would make it rewarding to figure it out. I normally concur with your opinion that figuring out stuff yourself in games in fun and rewarding, but in this case the whole galaxy is suddenly against you for non apparent reason. So that's why I was asking for an explanation.

 

[Gremlin]

That makes sense, but indeed is not intuitive at all. And since I already finished at least 30 humanitarian missions that don't even reward me credits but just reputation, just to regain my neutral status with the Empire, I think regaining just a single reputation level is off by a long shot. I mean, how many more reputation missions am I supposed to do to counteract one little smuggler run? This is ridiculous!.

A similar mistake like that has made the founders world hostile to me.. I go into the system and the hatin' just piles up..

I wasn't even trying to deliberately smuggle - lol.. I logged off one night having foolishly collected some canisters I found.
Then completely forgot, started my docking run the next day - got scanned a 24K find and immediately hostile.

Rep system is broken.. far too severe for degrading with no (practical) way to recover..

sigh.

 

[Arubeto]

If this is working as intended, the intention is flawed.

There seems to be no way to increase Empire or Federation rep even when you're Neutral and able to dock at stations without worrying. If there is an upward curve, it is so unbelievably slow that nobody has even been able to hit the first tick on it yet, meaning the total path up the major faction rep tree is absolutely insane in terms of time investment, think WoW reputation grind all added onto one another.

It's too easy to lose your reputation with factions in one quick gulp, leaving you unable to recover from it without a save wipe. As a result, I'm afraid to do missions in case some random faction interaction destroys my save. It's happened to plenty of people.

This is actually the one big problem I have with the system: the (missing) balancing between gaining and losing reputation. I am actually very happy that their is a way to lose reputation, since it would become pretty meaningless otherwise (like in WoW, where reputation always just goes up and is as boring as can be). But if you can't repair the damage a single smuggling run does to your reputation with over two dozens of humanitarian missions, than the whole system is destined to fail.

I can even live with the current mechanic where the main faction reputation effectively affects every minor faction reputation, but only if it's at least feasible to correct the losses you have suffered. I am not even talking about playing as a smuggler all the time - which, btw., should be viable "trail to blaze" nonetheless! - and therefore dropping in reputation continuously, but being reduced in Imperial reputation so much for just one run that I can't even restore the former status quo in many, many hours of grinding rep for the Empire! As it is now, my whole game time would be consumed by just reaching the initial status when I started the game, which can't be the intention of the designers of the reputation system.

 

[Espege]

Sorry for bumping this so shamelessly, but I really think this issue needs more attention. Am I the only one stuck with a galaxy of "unfriendly" sub factions?

No you're not. I'm usually an honest captain. But I found some cargo that looked good. The problem was not smuggling it into station. I float in, cold running, but while getting back I engaged some wanted guy. After I killed him, security vessel scanned me and fined me for 35k. I smuggled the cargo in, sold it for 25k, paid for my fine. Everything was good. Next restart of the game, I'm Unfriendly with everyone in Federation. Come on...

That is bugged, or is not a concept I agree on. Reputation should be based on the crime commited or favor done. I was going up for weeks trading in Federation and bounty hunting. And one fine and everything is not reset but burried into negative? Cool. I think I'll just be a serial killer then, no worries about reputation going any lower.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

This is a good bit of analysis! Nice work thinking it through and kicking it around, all.

I'm back from a week of exploration, and am about to go and play the reputation game. I'll watch all this like a hawk.

Nice work, all. It'll be interesting to see how this develops!

 

[Arubeto]

And one fine and everything is not reset but burried into negative?

This is what reduces all my efforts in the game to just retaining my status quo.

To be clear here: I am normally the last one to demand some difficult game mechanic to be dumped down, and normally I am adamant to defend every hardcore feature that makes the game challenging (docking computer? who needs that! autopilot? stop being lazy, commander! reduced insurance costs? the game has to remain punishing so that success is indeed meaningful! etc.), but in this case the missing balancing between losing and gaining rep is so far of that it actually hinders realistic gameplay. It's harsher than reality, and therefore immersion-breaking (immersion is my holy cow!). Why would some minor 200 ly away care about me shipping in one container of tech prototypes in a totally unrelated, far away system?

 

[Arubeto]

I very much hope FD is going to make a statement about the situation, and when things are going to work normal.

Right now the gap between gaining and losing reputation with main faction works more or less like this:

"Ah, commander, thanks for your efforts in helping us. Your reputation with us increased by 0.1%"

"Hello commander, nice of you to get us those 20 tons food that keeps our local population from starving. Have another 0.1% rep!"

"We appreciate you bringing us 10 tons non-leathal weapons, really helps our cause...+0.1%"

...

...

...

"What the hell? You brought this bottle of brandy into our system? How dare you?? Are you mad?!?! -100% rep!!!! Consider yourself an enemy of the state!!!"

Actually I am not too sad that I can't play very much in the next weeks, so u at least have chance to get a working rep system when I return...

 

[Andromalius]

Why do you people want every single game mechanic explained in minute detail? For years people had great fun trying to figure it out for themselves or with friends.

Mainly because in solo games, rules don't change. In online games, you want to know the rules because it's the only way to be sure they weren't changed by the developers. FD wanted an online game, they have to follow the rules of online game now, otherwise the player base will be pretty upset in the long term and player numbers will drop.