FDEv, Open now is Bambi vs. Godzilla, please consider having an Open server that is PvE only

[Tygra]

Thing would be that if Solo and private would be combined to PvE Group (like ghosting in GTA V), we would have devoted solo/private group (with friends perhaps) players that would be uppset about losing their privacy as so many others could now see what system they are trying to make to expand and try to stop it, or block landing pads at good trade routes they have, etc.

Otherwise it would be all fine for me, perhaps people could opt out being seen at all by other players unless friends (including their ship/cargo/landing spot instance, and so on where they could interact with other players who dont wanna interact with invisible, though how would that be different from what we have as options now?).

Doesn't mean Private Groups or Solo would have to go away. But it would be the :x if people in an Open PvE start telling people to go to solo, wouldn't it. [haha]

 

[Ethaidan]

Thanks for proving my point.

You keep using that word (fact)... I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

[SciTrekker]

What "kind of gameplay"? PvP in elite is so basic and can be completely avoidable.

Remember: PvP in Elite: Dangerous is basic and avoidable. No caveats, buts, ifs, exceptions, et. al.?

Even when someone interdict your ship, you can just dodge his attempt by playing mini-game or you submit intercept and then just FSD from there like it never happened. And it is not true that you cant do anything versus engineered ship or higher class vessel, there are tons youtube videos where people on eagles, vipers and cobras PvP versus endgame ships and win purely by their skills. There are even people who do it with FA off.

Ahh, avoidable if one has skill. Big IF for some.

I dont have much experience in Elite, only 600 or 700 hours of gameplay, and all of them in Open Mode. And damn game is so huge that i rarely meet players who want to fight here Moreover i died only once by "ganker" as you call them, who just interdicred my smuggler-cobra and destroyed my ship just for fun. And i didnt cared much, because of how easy it is to make money here. Lost ship? Who cares really?

You said PvP is "so basic and can be completely avoidable" yet you didn't avoid it, albeit only once.

It's nice that you have time to alter your in-game plans to go make back the credits the "ganker" cost you. Not everyone has that luxury.


Solid argument(s) to ponder. /s

 

[Tygra]

The part where you write that nowhere written that you have to PvP here - whaat? Well when i bought Fallout noone told me that i will fight there with huge mutants or crabs. When i bought Skyrim noone told me that i have to fight giant spiders, i am so scared of those s, heh. Same logic for me. Why someone should write about this things officially? Elite Dangerous was in progress for many years, and already then people knew about PvP. There are wiki, all kinds of review where all this things are written, forums. All know about PvP in this game.

Not as much this:

The answer is: Because not everyone wants that kind of game play, and there is no real equivalent game on the market that offers the same kind of immersive game play as Elite Dangerous. What FDev intended, and the kind of crowed they have following the game are not the same. There is a PvE community that gets their own kind of enjoyment out of this game then pew pew. Where else are they going to go? FDev doesn't care about them. at all.

Really more this:

Steam was at least the most honest, even though it was buried in the middle of the article. They attracted the PvE crowed who like to be explorers, all the while, other players shoot them in the back and then wonder why everyone's upset. Bait and Switch, if you ask me. Regardless, it's clear this game is not advertised to the PvP MMO player. It's not touted as a major feature, limitless exploration is.

I was answering a specific question. Good one in fact, made me think about my answer. What was wrong with PvP? My answer was, not everyone wants to play that way, and there's enough people that the idea of an Open PvE mode should be considered. I offered a long string of evidence and the source of how people could come into this game with that idea. I also have multiple times said that FDev isn't going to do anything about it, even though the PvE player base might be bigger then the PvP player base. The weak numbers in open, and large number of private groups with large player counts is evidence to that fact. Open PvE would give those players shunned by the bullies a chance to play the game together.

No one has yet directly answered my questions.
1. What does the current Open loose if FDev creates an Open PvE Mode? (no changes to solo/private)
2. If there was an Open PvE Mode, and you enjoy the current Open Play mode, would you change modes to Open PvE?

I would even like to see Fdev's answer on this, though I bet they'll never even read this, and even if they did, won't answer it.

 

[Tygra]

You keep using that word (fact)... I don't think it means what you think it means.

Take each of my points,
1. There is a fundamental difference between a "Private Group" and an Open PVE.
2. PvP players would not leave Open PVP, They wouldn't want to play in a PVE Environment
3. The wild wild west would be even wilder now that only PvP consenting players would show up there.
4. There would still be explores and traders in a PvP Open
5. Both communities would have a chance to thrive in their own play style.

Tell me how I am wrong on them. If the point is valid, I will concede or debate it. I will even give you the first. I agree there's some conjecture in my statements. But can they hold up or not? Take each one, true or false, and explain why it is true or not.

 

[Slange Lands]

Commander Tygra, you have my respect and admiration. It would be a privilege to fly with you.

o7
slange

 

[MillennialDawn]

I think that Frontier should prepare the new player by making some of the AI comparable to human players. I was shocked to discover that my 'skill' at avoiding interdictions accounted for pretty much nought when I went in to Open and was first interdicted by other human players. Whereas, I am now able to completely avoid all AI interdictions, when I'm interdicted by human players it's a lot tougher avoiding the interdiction...

Also, In certain systems - Anarchy in particular - the AI needs to attack at random (even a Commander *without* cargo), because in an Anarchy scenario there is no law and order. Criminal gangs and groups attack at random - trespassers into their territory, because they don't like you and for the fun of it. AI should be behaving like this - the way so called 'Gankers' do. If anything, I'd suggest that any changes made need to drive these unsavoury human elements out of civilised space and into the lawless sectors of space. Hopefully, some of the Crime and Punishment changes may do this (although, I suspect that certain things will need to be adjusted to fully accomplish that objective - but it's a good start).

 

[xondk]

Lets see how the new crime and punishment affects the game, I think it could help at the very least the newbie hunting, because having a big ship hunting newbies is going to become more troublesome, and in essence that's the best thing to do, make it more trouble then its worth.

 

[Myspace Kaitsu80]

Take each of my points,
1. There is a fundamental difference between a "Private Group" and an Open PVE.
2. PvP players would not leave Open PVP, They wouldn't want to play in a PVE Environment
3. The wild wild west would be even wilder now that only PvP consenting players would show up there.
4. There would still be explores and traders in a PvP Open
5. Both communities would have a chance to thrive in their own play style.

Tell me how I am wrong on them. If the point is valid, I will concede or debate it. I will even give you the first. I agree there's some conjecture in my statements. But can they hold up or not? Take each one, true or false, and explain why it is true or not.

I´m not against the idea but I could try:

1. Sure Open PvE would have much more people flying around, but some (inviduals/groups) go to their own mode for their own privacy.
Huge Milky Way also would pretty much ensure that even in Open PvE group player encounters would be more or less random and rare (besides few known/temporarily popular systems for players), also divided to 4 instead of 3 groups might harm players online-numbers in all of them, not all Private/Solo moders would get to Open PvE, if even most (though I doubt it would hurt Solo or Private Groups a bit, but from that we come to following below).

2. and 3. contradict each others, would it affect numbers in Open or not?

But you are right in 4. that many explorers especially would still stay in Open (no risk almost at all but that slight possibility of running to somebody dangerous middle of nowhere..), and there are some traders who would feel bored without added risk from Open (because npc pirates could not even Hyperdict or catch after that a cow with rocket pack and a space helmet).

 

[Tygra]

I´m not against the idea but I could try:

1. Sure Open PvE would have much more people flying around, but some (inviduals/groups) go to their own mode for their own privacy.
Huge Milky Way also would pretty much ensure that even in Open PvE group player encounters would be more or less random and rare (besides few known/temporarily popular systems for players), also divided to 4 instead of 3 groups might harm players online-numbers in all of them, not all Private/Solo moders would get to Open PvE, if even most (though I doubt it would hurt Solo or Private Groups a bit, but from that we come to following below).

2. and 3. contradict each others, would it affect numbers in Open or not?

But you are right in 4. that many explorers especially would still stay in Open (no risk almost at all but that slight possibility of running to somebody dangerous middle of nowhere..), and there are some traders who would feel bored without added risk from Open (because npc pirates could not even Hyperdict or catch after that a cow with rocket pack and a space helmet).

To your reply on #1,

I will partly agree with you, but it's the private groups that would suffer, not Open.

Honestly, Open play wouldn't be affected much inho, I think it's the private groups that would stand the most to loose, some could even cease to exist. But the reason those group do exist is mostly out of an attempt to work round this very issue. Most of those players wouldn't be quitting, they would have migrated to the PvE mode. I think it will be a net gain in the end, as more people would be in PvE mode then any other. New players would fill in PvE Play and PvP Play over time.

Private groups would become just that, small, specific purposed groups for a specific task, like racing or other event oriented things where the runners want to control the crowds. Here's a really good question, Is that what FDev really meant for private groups to be? If so, even if the large groups collapsed, there would be a much overall larger area to find more commanders to play with in net total.

Solo is unaffected. 1+0=1. Could solo players be drawn out into PvE mode? Some might, and that would be an absolute net gain to make up some of the difference.

As for 2 & 3....

Those were kind of pulled out of context form their original paragraphs (By me). Point 3 was really trying to say that many PvP'er argue that the game is already too easy, and any suggestion with even the slightest amount of QoL often triggers them into complaining that the game is easy enough.

Anyone in Open PVP is fair game with no more excuses to complain about PvP. For the PvP community, they themselves would have a place where they can meet like minded individuals. Kill or be Killed will rule absolutely with no excuse. Thus why it's worded wild wild west. Each blip on your scanner could be a CMDR who's gonna just fly by and o7, or that CMDR might just hunt you relentlessly. For those who like that high stakes flying, people will play it for that challenge alone. Game on!

Anyhow, to your point...

Is it possible the numbers could drop in Open, I will concede the point, perhaps a little bit. But it would end debate and the bullying. In some ways, it seems to be a side effect that the game design pushes the PvE community who don't want to play alone onto PvP players.

Two communities that don't see Eye to Eye are forced together, for the appearance of a vibrant world. They force a larger peaceful majority into an area with a more aggressive minority for the sake of 'content'. Then they punish that majority should they not like it by making them play in limited modes. That's really what seems to be going on here. This has led to bullying and frustration for many, and even hate. Not the best game design for a deep space exploration game. IMHO

One final factor is the people who just want to watch the world burn, the Gankers of the Galaxy. None of this affects them. Ironically, they'd go to the PvE mode to harass people, more likely because they are less likely to get shot. [big grin] Nothing is going to stop them, but, depending on how the mechanic of a PvE mode would work, it at least prevents them from ruining hours of play by another player just for kicks. The revamped C&P system of 3.0 won't really affect them. I saw it in beta, it won't help.

 

[CMDR_Havok]

Do new players deserve to play Elite in a multiplayer environment from the start? Unlike World of Warcraft with its multitude of different kinds of servers, i.e. PvP only or PvE only, there is only one Open multiplayer server in Elite. New players in Elite wanting the multiplayer environment don't have a choice but to play with Godzilla.

PvE servers, solo mode, private groups..etc...
None of these are at all nescessary, nor are they desirable.

All that is needed is proper balance and a robust crime and punishment system. Most of the time when pkers gankers or whatever attack noobs or weaker player they are acting like bullies, and like all bullies they only do it because they can get away with it.
They get away with it in Elite, because:

Crime has no real consequences..
For example, criminals can still dock at all starports and have full access to the facilities...

Bounty hunter players are inept, i've tried it repeatedly, playing as a bounty hunter (pvp) sucks, there is no mechanism to locate and track criminal down...

But the absolute most significant reason is that for some absurd reason the authorities forgive your crimes in no time at all, in other words whatever small consequences exist for 'bad' behaviour is so temporary as to be meaningless. IMO comiting acts of agression such as attacking another player should be a conscious decision that will lead to serious and long-lived game consequences.

In other words attacking another ship in Elite should be a career choice, not some casual act that will be forgotten by your next gaming session.... That way any such aggressive PvP behaviour is both reduced and at the same time made more meaningful... thus enriching the environment for all

So whilst I do understand and sympathise with your concerns I think the real solution to the problems in the main server 'open' require solutions to the game, not adding extra servers, or stupid 'alternative universes' like solo.

 

[CMDR_Havok]

Take each of my points,
1. There is a fundamental difference between a "Private Group" and an Open PVE.
2. PvP players would not leave Open PVP, They wouldn't want to play in a PVE Environment
3. The wild wild west would be even wilder now that only PvP consenting players would show up there.
4. There would still be explores and traders in a PvP Open
5. Both communities would have a chance to thrive in their own play style.

Tell me how I am wrong on them. If the point is valid, I will concede or debate it. I will even give you the first. I agree there's some conjecture in my statements. But can they hold up or not? Take each one, true or false, and explain why it is true or not.

You are forgetting that Elite is not that kind of game where you either play it to fight with other players or you don't. Elite is a game where combat with other players sometimes happens as a result of your actions in the game, but the game is not 'about' combat with other players.

If the player base becomes split between those players that want to fight other players regardless of any in game context do do so, and those players who want to avoid combat at all cost, then the game is essentially dead... because there is no longer any possibility of 'meaningfull' combat within any game context...

My biggest fear for this game is that Open becomes a place where people go for PvP and its just a dogfighting arena , and Solo is where everyone else goes to avoid conflict altogether..

 

[Jaylem]

I understand what you mean, but there are player groups people can join instead (or just go into solo)

I prefer Solo play now due to influx of evil players in that past few months, if they don't kill you for no reason they will find some other way to kill you or ruin your experience. even non-griefers are dangerous if they are careless (like blasting 400m/s out of mailslot into your ship with 2% hull.....)

Although you don't get to talk to players, there appears to be no penalties for participating in private groups and solo game modes.

 

[RamirezKurita]

The simplest solution I see to these issues is to give players the option for an "incognito mode", which removes the CMDR prefix from their name and the hollowed out pip. The murderhobos would quite quickly run out of player targets to prey upon unless they want to spend most of their time hunting NPCs in the hopes of picking on a player.

 

[CMDR_Havok]

The simplest solution I see to these issues is to give players the option for an "incognito mode", which removes the CMDR prefix from their name and the hollowed out pip. The murderhobos would quite quickly run out of player targets to prey upon unless they want to spend most of their time hunting NPCs in the hopes of picking on a player.

This solution is one that has been discussed since beta, and its a solution that has a LOT of community support, FD don't seem interested however. To me it would be an almost perfect solution as it does allow for player interactions to happen, whilst removing the ability of griefers and PKers to target other players simply for being another player....

 

[alphakomodo]

I totally agree with removing player indicators AS AN OPTION. I think being able to see other players increases interaction but since FDev wants this game to blur pve and PvP then obviously blurring the distinction between E and P is necessary lol. I think adding a function just like report crimes that lets you display as an online player or just another ship in the ethos is totally warranted and should 100% be added. No harm no foul and it’s simple to use with just a “yes I’m online let people notice me” or “I’m trading don’t look at the random expert level trade conda” button so to speak lolol

 

[Sweet&Dandy]

This solution is one that has been discussed since beta, and its a solution that has a LOT of community support, FD don't seem interested however. To me it would be an almost perfect solution as it does allow for player interactions to happen, whilst removing the ability of griefers and PKers to target other players simply for being another player....

Sneaky mode!

 

[CMDR_Havok]

I totally agree with removing player indicators AS AN OPTION. I think being able to see other players increases interaction

But the point is that interaction should not occur just because it is two players that meet, that is a recipe for griefers etc to annoy other players by attacking them for no good reason and it is IMO the main reason why a huge portion of the player base has dissapeared off into solo.

IMO an 'interaction' should happen because for example, a bounty hunter meets a criminal, or when a pirate spots a juicy unarmed trader... It should not be about 'hey there is another player, lets pick a fight '...

but since FDev wants this game to blur pve and PvP then obviously blurring the distinction between E and P is necessary lol. I think adding a function just like report crimes that lets you display as an online player or just another ship in the ethos is totally warranted and should 100% be added. No harm no foul and it’s simple to use with just a “yes I’m online let people notice me” or “I’m trading don’t look at the random expert level trade conda” button so to speak lolol

If they really wanted to blur the line between PvP and PVE then they would not have added a solo play mode..... My view is that Solo is a quick fix for gameplay balance issues that they can't be bothered or aren't creative enough to solve in the main game

 

[alphakomodo]

I understand that but messaging NPC’s isn’t a thing and no one is interested in sending out a hello into the Black every time they see a ship. Just saying there should be a toggle so those who wish to remain anonymous to ganking may, and those not worried or even inviting to it can be seen. Might even reduce ganking cause now all the visible targets are likely harder to kill

Edit: that’s pretty harsh. Fdev isn’t lazy and it shows. Look solo is easier on broadband (it’s the only way I can play right now because of poor internet) and it also allows those not interested in interacting for ANY reason to avoid it. The elite univers is guote “a cut throat galaxy” and they mean it literally. If you can’t handle real psychos killing you with their gank machine condas then you shouldn’t play with people. That’s how the galaxy is and no amount of whining will change it. Get good or go solo. If you disagree that’s on you not anyone else. And I don’t even gank

#ganksupport