Fer De Lance - Best 'Laser Only' Build...?

[V'larr]

I don't even need hardpoints any more.
Heavy ship, modded bi-weaves, plus some DD5s and the ramifications become all too obvious.

I confess, I have found my trade Cutter to be up to speed using 6A prismatics...I had to blink a few times when, on a whim, I decided to boost into a would-be NPC Anaconda pirate in the middle of his initial scan, and had hardly a dent in the first ring in my shields while the Anaconda was left drifting with 21% hull remaining....

Not a criticism but the problem is ... what is left that isn't cheese?

Thank-you Engineers....*sighhhhhh*

Personally the only thing I will not duel against is missiles. I'm not even flying a hull tank but I hate their 'low damage, zero skill' model, which is drip-drip death to duelling. I would love it if missiles were high skill, massive damage - Top Gun style. But as it is, what's the point in a missile duel?

Man, if only we had effective point defence mounts, amirite? But surely somebody has said something about this before....

When the hounds did go off, boosting off their vector seemed to do the trick. But again, I haven't faced them often.

They *can* be rather slow. Even NPCs can outrun the things, at least for a ways - which has let one or two runaway pirates slip from the claws of my vengeful Cutter, sadly.

 

[jasonbarron]

I see people talking about the FdL meta and I don't even know what it is now. A few months ago 3x Efficient PA's and 2x rails was very common, and it seems like I am seeing more build diversity nowadays. I'd contend that a light weight FdL was always the rig used by the best of the best, along with biweaves. Rinzler's FdL is only 550 mj and is packing 3x chaff for instance.

@Truesilver, I'm not a laser man myself, but that would definitely change if they put phasing back up to 15% bleed through

 

[V3teran]

Noted for reference.

 

[Arthur Shappey]

There are some truly great points made on this thread. Thanks Enexemander & StiTch in particular.

And from them I think there are a couple of nuggets to surface:

1) If the NPCs ships were better, and had engineered, varied builds like the players - would the cheese mountain look so large? [I think it could disappear]
2) If (1) were true, could the player community put up with an NPC/player community where they would have to run away from a larger amount of battles (with NPCs or players) or prepare to rebuy? I.e. a really 'dangerous' Elite: Dangerous game?

I can't find a nasty build that there isn't a counter to, BUT the key here is if you only have to build that counter for the occasional player - it becomes a cheese issue. Too many players are obsessed with this single uber-indestructable build, a really dull goal. Not enough players are obsessed with when to pick a fight and when to run, strategy & tactics.

Just my farthing's-worth. I'll go make the tea...

 

[Han_Zen]

There are some truly great points made on this thread. Thanks Enexemander & StiTch in particular.

And from them I think there are a couple of nuggets to surface:

1) If the NPCs ships were better, and had engineered, varied builds like the players - would the cheese mountain look so large? [I think it could disappear]
2) If (1) were true, could the player community put up with an NPC/player community where they would have to run away from a larger amount of battles (with NPCs or players) or prepare to rebuy? I.e. a really 'dangerous' Elite: Dangerous game?

I can't find a nasty build that there isn't a counter to, BUT the key here is if you only have to build that counter for the occasional player - it becomes a cheese issue. Too many players are obsessed with this single uber-indestructable build, a really dull goal. Not enough players are obsessed with when to pick a fight and when to run, strategy & tactics.

Just my farthing's-worth. I'll go make the tea...

I think giving NPCs access to the same engineering and outfitting strategies that players have, would make the game better. These NPCs should be relatively rare. Some Elite and Deadly NPCs could have have meta builds, based on their role.

To me it feels natural that military Elites in general and System security Elites in rich high sec. systems, should be on this level. There could also be Elite pirate lords with full meta builds.

The player community could put up with this, because every single one of us survived against superior NPCs when we started of in our Sidewinder. We ran and survived.

I even think there is room for a few mission related 'ultra NPCs' with above player capabilities, to give a real challenge to PvE wings.

 

[StiTch]

1) If the NPCs ships were better, and had engineered, varied builds like the players - would the cheese mountain look so large? [I think it could disappear]
2) If (1) were true, could the player community put up with an NPC/player community where they would have to run away from a larger amount of battles (with NPCs or players) or prepare to rebuy? I.e. a really 'dangerous' Elite: Dangerous game?

Not sure you'll blitz the cheese - in any competitive environment people are gonna use the meta regardless. It's not even like players are having a go at FD because "commonly used loadouts" exist...that's gonna happen.

What grinds my gears is that FD have introduced some really, really poorly conceived mechanics or tools and mixed it with a healthy dose of poor balancing updates. They can program this entire game and yet not have the common sense to put two and two together. For, example the predominant tactic before 2.1 was SR rail-de-lances; when 2.1 hit we gained access to engineers, mods, effects...a veritable balancing minefield. The sensible option would have been to get stuck in to testing directly and through the beta, take things slowly and watch out for abusable mechanics. What actually happened? They gave silent running a whack, the FDL got hotter, heat sinks got nerfed...and engineers brought us thermal shock. In a couple of weeks we went from everyone's ships running cold to running away from insta-heat death.

A brief moment of common sense and some testing could have averted that little nugget of cheese (and oh look, the pack hounds were at fault again).

*sigh*..../rant

Back on your (real) topic, improved AI is a winner for all. We already have the ability to scale by pilot rank, and that's all we realistically need to make a move on. Want the fight of your life? Go take on an Elite ranked foe, supposedly toughest in the galaxy. Want to go seal clubbing in a forum-accepted manner? Go take on Harmless NPCs.

Why we have so little variation is beyond me. There's absolutely nothing stopping all players having AI content that suits them.

 

[yolomcbobbinz]

Rapid fire bursts

 

[Alikat]

I use 4 medium gimballed efficient pulses, 2 with scramble spectrum. and a Huge corrosive efficient mc on my FDL. Huge MC's have no wind up time, and a slower rate of fire than smaller MC's so ammo lasts a long time. I average about 7million in bounties between reloads.

 

[EvE4evah]

Passing by, just to track y'all in this thread. It's very fruitful and had a nice mood. Lots of useful info too. I love you guys.

 

[yolomcbobbinz]

I use 4 medium gimballed efficient pulses, 2 with scramble spectrum. and a Huge corrosive efficient mc on my FDL. Huge MC's have no wind up time, and a slower rate of fire than smaller MC's so ammo lasts a long time. I average about 7million in bounties between reloads.

why effectient on the multi cannon? It shouldnt have heat or distributor problems I'd run high capacity or rapid fire

 

[Nazdakka]

What grinds my gears is that FD have introduced some really, really poorly conceived mechanics or tools and mixed it with a healthy dose of poor balancing updates. They can program this entire game and yet not have the common sense to put two and two together. For, example the predominant tactic before 2.1 was SR rail-de-lances; when 2.1 hit we gained access to engineers, mods, effects...a veritable balancing minefield. The sensible option would have been to get stuck in to testing directly and through the beta, take things slowly and watch out for abusable mechanics. What actually happened? They gave silent running a whack, the FDL got hotter, heat sinks got nerfed...and engineers brought us thermal shock. In a couple of weeks we went from everyone's ships running cold to running away from insta-heat death.

A brief moment of common sense and some testing could have averted that little nugget of cheese (and oh look, the pack hounds were at fault again).

Balancing is much harder than you think. FD have (complete guess) say 10-20 people actively working in/around combat design. On the other hand, there are tens of thousands of players out there looking for an edge, and any time that the FD slip up, someone finds it and then the internet does its thing and everybody knows the secret.

Back on your (real) topic, improved AI is a winner for all. We already have the ability to scale by pilot rank, and that's all we realistically need to make a move on. Want the fight of your life? Go take on an Elite ranked foe, supposedly toughest in the galaxy. Want to go seal clubbing in a forum-accepted manner? Go take on Harmless NPCs.

Why we have so little variation is beyond me. There's absolutely nothing stopping all players having AI content that suits them.

On this I agree completely. I'd love more ways for the AIs to challenge a high-end ship. My current goal is figuring out how to get through the SLF spam and drive off a capital ship in a CZ. Current plan is a gimbal-tastic Pulse Laser/MC FdL.

 

[Truesilver]

I use 4 medium gimballed efficient pulses, 2 with scramble spectrum. and a Huge corrosive efficient mc on my FDL. Huge MC's have no wind up time, and a slower rate of fire than smaller MC's so ammo lasts a long time. I average about 7million in bounties between reloads.

why effectient on the multi cannon? It shouldnt have heat or distributor problems I'd run high capacity or rapid fire

It depends on whether you intend to use the weapon sets separately or together.

If, as I expect, Cmdr Alikat wants to fire his 4 x gimballed efficient pulses at the same time as his huge MC, he'll get a modest but over time significant increase in sustainable DPS from having efficient on the multi also.

 

[Khazid]

I have the impression that the PvP community values MCs because they allow more engine and shield pips. Damage output comes secondary and with a good margin. Note that Truesilver pilots a hull-tankish FDL in the videos, as he has not sufficient pips for shields too. With a 0 shields 4 engines 2 weapons pip configuration, he can focus more on evasion maneuvers instead of pip juggling. With a shield and the need to have 4 pips on it you must make a choice over engine pips or Laser pips. Avoiding hits without engine pips is much harder.

So one has to choose over high evasion hull tank laser build (no need for shield pips) or shield-face-tanking MC build (less pips on weapons and possibly engines, more for shield damage absorption)

Of course you can be exceptionally good at pip management and be able to juggle between weapons engines and shields depending on the situation, but I still doubt you can be effective on all 3 pip aspects at the same time. At least you cannot be as effective as in the case of focusing on 2 aspects.

 

[Alikat]

It depends on whether you intend to use the weapon sets separately or together.

If, as I expect, Cmdr Alikat wants to fire his 4 x gimballed efficient pulses at the same time as his huge MC, he'll get a modest but over time significant increase in sustainable DPS from having efficient on the multi also.

You are correct Sir. I can fire all five weapons near indefinitely on 2.5 pips. When I'm low on ammo and don't want to go back to the station yet I'll some times start only firing an MC shot once every couple seconds just to keep the corrosive debuff going for the pulses too. ^^

 

[N3rd Murd3r3r]

This thread has grown mini-legs.

When I returned from my holibobs (in case anyone even cares anymore) I went with the two Efficient burst (Scramble), two Rapid fire Pulses (Phase) and one huge Efficient pulse (also Phase).

This is nice, and met the key requirement of being a bit of fun and decently effective enough to not pine for multi-cannons too much.

Next up; my FAS is getting three Overcharged cannons with High Yield shell after I accidentally found out how decent they were at targeting power plants...(I was desperately trying to make my Dolphin beat something, anything, in combat and tried them out to good effect).