Elite / Frontier FFE - Not what it used to be :-/

Kipper · Nov 3, 2006

Well I thought i'd give FFE a crack again now its been tweaked and modded a bit... but nostalgia aint what it used to be. That said, however, it must be nearly 15 years - half my life - since I played it.

Ok graphics and sound wise theres nothing to say - its an old game!

Playability is not where I remember it though - I tended, until I tried it again, to only remember it for the bugs, but I still remembered it pretty fondly. But not this time around, to be honest, its pee'ing me off!

Its the combat thats doing it. I can't see where the skill is involved, I am spending my time reloading saved games because I get no chance to defend myself when attacked. I am literally destroyed in one shot - which I dont seem to have any kind of input into whether i'm hit or not, I can't get out of the way because nothing seems to have any rhyme or reason for the direction its heading in, and because you can turn on yourself - and so can they - they just spin round and one shot me. Load saved game. Ad infinitum until either I dont get attacked on the route, or I get a bit luckier and can get turned on them before they get turned on me. More often than not, though, this is not at all possible. At least I have a fighting chance having been able to upgrade the ship and get a beam laser fitted, can't hit a thing with the pulse laser.

Occasionally i'll get attacked by ships with no guns (?) or ships that, regardless of whether i carry on or stop, just continually yoyo thousands of kilometers away, the speeds so mismatched that I cant fight them, they cant fight me, and I can't accellerate time because they're in the area. It certainly seems there is no option but to fight, even if you might think of making a run for it, you can't, because as soon as you hit stardreamer, its red alert again. And who's going to play it through in normal time?

I just dont get it! I'm not having a pop at the game - like I said, fond memories and all that.... I dont know how I didnt get this the first time around (or maybe I just dont remember) - but can anyone tell me how on earth (or any other planet) I am supposed to use any skill to play the game?

Other than infuriating myself with combat, all I am doing at the moment is check the board, buy some gear, launch, hyperspace, autopilot, autodock, and so on.... what happened to the game I lost all that time to, all that time ago? (I must say from a trading point of view it has been 1000% easier to make money on this than the original elite)

Will E4 be this frustrating and just kill you at a whim? Or will it give you the chance to become good at it? I don't mind being outclassed in a fight with a bigger and better armed ship - I may lose, but at least let me fight.... (or run, or call for help, or try to hide inside a hollow asteroid, or jettison mines, or attempt to take out his engines/weapons systems, or drop cargo to distract him -- give me options!!)

The revisitation and current dissapointment however has still not tainted my expectations of E4

Sorry... when you spend so long making it, people are gonna have had all that time to imagine what it will be like

scowie · Nov 3, 2006

You need to use the thruster controls to strafe around so that you're not a sitting duck.

Im guessing you are using glFFE or jjFFE?

If so, you can use the numpad keys to strafe:

7= left, 9=right
4=up, 1=down
8=forward, 5=backwards

I find these keys are a bit awkward though. I quit playing the game earlier today after getting frustrated with them. I just got killed after dispatching loads of bad guys, cos I accidentally rammed a ship by pressing forwards when I wanted to go up. I would prefer using something like the typical WASD keys. Dunno whether its possible to change them without being some l33t h4xor (or elite hacker, even!). I would prefer W=up, S=down, A=left, D=right, spacebar=forwards, lshift=backwards.

Anyone got any clues about how controls can be changed with a bit of hex editing?

Anyway, strafing makes a big difference. I'd hit the main thruster while you look for the enemy on the scanner and get them in front of you. Then you can strafe away from their laser fire, and try to avoid it by switching directions as the laser gets near you. You wont get killed so much doing this. The more manouvreable ships, like Ospreys and Eagles are better at keeping their lasers on you, so I think a missile would come in handy with them.

RAK · Nov 3, 2006

Having played through Frontier: Elite 2 for a bit just to experience the combat, I must say that it is a more interesting system and likely easier to use, but I am still better at the FFE system, which I don't find that difficult at all (except when some stupid ship flies into me!).

However, I think that if they applied the FFE "combat mode" initiation and the idea of more than one craft attacking at a time to the Frontier system of relative velocity combat, then I think that you'd have an excellent mixture of combat systems, as the Frontier system was actually more fun to play.

but can anyone tell me how on earth (or any other planet) I am supposed to use any skill to play the game?

Thrusters. If they're shooting at you, fly to the right or left of them, or fly downwards. If they're flying straight towards you and they're flashing right past you, use your reverse thrusters to get a shot in.

Also, deflection shots are a skill that you may need to learn.

It certainly seems there is no option but to fight, even if you might think of making a run for it, you can't, because as soon as you hit stardreamer, its red alert again. And who's going to play it through in normal time?

If you're constantly getting attacked, use progressive stardreamer step-ups, starting with setting 3, then setting 4 after about ten seconds and then setting 5 after another ten seconds, if you haven't got attacked in the meantime.

Occasionally i'll get attacked by ships with no guns (?) or ships that, regardless of whether i carry on or stop, just continually yoyo thousands of kilometers away, the speeds so mismatched that I cant fight them, they cant fight me, and I can't accellerate time because they're in the area.

These ones often turn out to be the most annoying for me, because they simply fly into me. Use full reverse thrusters and keep shooting in the middle of the target. When they yo-yo past you again, turn and use reverse thrusters again until they aren't gaining or losing much ground compared to you.

In conclusion, there's a lot more skill involved in FFE than one would realise, but that often means that there's too much skill involved in combat. I found out how to use the combat system effectively, but I'm still infuriated with certain parts of the game (AI ships fly straight into me because they're too stupid to fly out of the way when I'm accelerating at 15-25G towards them).

caol · Nov 3, 2006

There are a bunch of other tricks to get around some of the more irritating features of combat in FE2 and FFE.

or ships that, regardless of whether i carry on or stop, just continually yoyo thousands of kilometers away, the speeds so mismatched that I cant fight them, they cant fight me, and I can't accellerate time because they're in the area. It certainly seems there is no option but to fight, even if you might think of making a run for it, you can't, because as soon as you hit stardreamer, its red alert again. And who's going to play it through in normal time?

For example - here you can get away on manual control by setting your set speed really high, pointing roughly in the direction of the spaceport you are heading towards then waiting on normal time until the attacking ship is no longer visable in you scanner. Wait a bit longer then put the time speed up by one increment (>>). Wait for a while at this time then increment the star dreamer again(>>>). You can then get to the spaceport but have to wait a bit longer. Sometimes you can get away with going up to >>>> (the one before max) time without getting attacked. You have to keep accelerating all the time though. Then when you are within a few hundred thousand km of the spaceport switch to autopilot and put time to max and the autopilot will magically be able to stop you in time. This is also a good trick to get to places really quickly if you have a package to deliver within a certain time. It is also a good way of avoiding combat at all if you have a ship with a high main thruster acceleration. This of course doesn't work if you have a large ship with slow main thruster acceleration - the best way to combat that is either buy loads of shields, click on the ship and set your autopilot (if your gun doesn't get them then you'll ram them) or use a turret gun.

Like I said, there are other work-arounds that can make combat quite easy but the point is that combat should really be fun and not an irritating interruption that needs bizarre tricks and exploitation of unusual emergent gameplay properties. I really hope that this is an issue that is addressed in Elite IV.

zmurf · Nov 3, 2006

Try playing Frontier instead of Frontier2. Its much easier spacefights.

(and the ships are nicer

)

scowie · Nov 3, 2006

RAK said:
I think that if they applied the FFE "combat mode" initiation and the idea of more than one craft attacking at a time to the Frontier system of relative velocity combat, then I think that you'd have an excellent mixture of combat systems, as the Frontier system was actually more fun to play.

FFE has relative velocity combat. The only thing that is different between them, combat-wise is the enemy AI (the way they attack you), and that you can get multiple attackers in FFE. And of course, in gl/jjffe you get individual thruster control.

RAK said:
I'm still infuriated with certain parts of the game (AI ships fly straight into me because they're too stupid to fly out of the way when I'm accelerating at 15-25G towards them).

Well, how about not always accelerating at 15-25g towards them! Sounds like you are playing a game of chicken with them and you call them stupid if they dont swerve first! The AI generally does its best to not crash into you. If you do hit them, it is your own fault!

RAK · Nov 3, 2006

Well, how about not always accelerating at 15-25g towards them! Sounds like you are playing a game of chicken with them and you call them stupid if they dont swerve first! The AI generally does its best to not crash into you. If you do hit them, it is your own fault!

I try to shoot them out at about 3km away, usually, but with the 1MW beam laser, a strike doesn't necessarily entail a kill. This, coupled with the fact that the ships often attack at very close ranges to begin with means that they often crash into me while I'm trying to attack another ship.

I probably should try regulating my acceleration though...

FFE has relative velocity combat. The only thing that is different between them, combat-wise is the enemy AI (the way they attack you), and that you can get multiple attackers in FFE. And of course, in gl/jjffe you get individual thruster control.

I realise that the combat in FFE is relative velocity based. I suppose what makes the difference is the enemy AI, which seems more fun to fight against in Frontier.

Kipper · Nov 4, 2006

You know what, I dont have independent thruster control. I can only seem to do the forward/backwards/top/bottom ones.

Maybe i'm a version below where I should be :\

Anyway - what about when the first hit kills you (invariably they have 4mw+ beam lasers vs my unsheilded cobra mk1) ? Or they launch a missile so close to you that even reaching from the thruster keys to ECM is impossible? Thats what I call not being given a chance.

EDIT: Cracked it, the thruster graphics dont show on all ships.... ok, lets try this bad-boy again, I have a shipment of battle weapons that need fencing!

scowie · Nov 4, 2006

I think with some ships the thruster flames are positioned inside the ship so you cant see them. In my current game I have a Viper mk2 and the main thruster is the only one that is visible. I think with the Saker III the main thruster one is mostly hidden by that bulbous bit at the back, you can just see it at an angle.

Anyway, if I were you, i'd get at least 1 shield on that Cobra. As soon as I bought my Viper I fitted a single shield, just so that grazing lazer shots wouldnt do any damage (and so collisions arent always fatal!). After fitting a class 2 military drive I fitted a 2nd shield, and a Viper mk2 has slightly less capacity than a Cobra mk1.

As long as I start manouvering as soon as combat starts I find I rarely get killed instantly by a single opponent's lasers. Multiple ship attacks can be very hairy though! I do sometimes suffer instant death from a close range missile. I guess the only defense against this is to not get too close and try to take them out from a distance, or you could fly away from them and let them fire their missiles while you use ecm/chaff, whilst dodging their lasers. Once they have wasted all their missiles on you, you can go in for the kill.

Kipper · Nov 4, 2006

Well certainly the tips are helping - and i'm lasting longer, and it seems i'm become more able to dodge the laser fire.

I'm reluctant to shield the Mark I because I only have 25t of cargo space as it goes, with everything else installed - I could go for a military drive to save a few tonnes I guess. A few more trips and i'll be in a position to afford something with a little more space (I can now, just cant afford the drive to go in it).

Heres what i'm talking about though - I have a save, battling my way to a planet its become nescessary to save mid-trip as i've already fended off 4 waves of ships - the last one being 4x Saker IIIs coming in for a pop.

Stardreamer wakes me up with 4x Harriers all sporting 4MW beam lasers and at least one of them shielded, to add insult to injury i'm awoken while they're all in close formation 1.05km directly behind me, I kid you not, not even Commander Jameson could get out of this one.

....Finally got out of that mess.... a bit of creative course correction in the hope that I wouldn't run into them heading for the current target, but that didnt work. What it did do though is give me some more advance warning, but I still got one-shotted when they got near. (Forgot to mention, I went into the battle with 8.6% hull :|)

Managed finally to do it, by turning off autopilot and just accellerating rapidly towards where I was going, I evaded them for a good 3 or 4 AU and finally hit stardreamer when I thought I could make it. I didn't make it. But when they came, there was a separation between the lead ship and the other three, so I spun around and took him out, kept firing engines all the time and praying, and i was able to get a lucky couple of bursts on two others close together, they're weak enough to go down with few hits, it was just getting a chance to line up on them. Once I was down to one it was a lot easier, and I hunted him down and killed him like a dog.

Now in a position to upgrade to a constrictor with a shield generator, which I just did, it cost me everything for the ship and some upgrades, including a 4mw beam laser of my own.... first time out though, one shotted through the shield, which was just either sat on 0% or was completely innefectual against whatever hit me. Great.

Going back to the save - I might keep the cobra for a couple more runs to get the bank balance up so I can take a constrictor with a bigger/military drive and still have enough money for something other than fruit+veg :|

As infuriating as it is, I cant stop playing the game now

I_am_Jon · Nov 5, 2006

Maybe you should stick to a safer trade route until you can afford a better equipped ship. Try Sol -> Barnards Star buy luxury goods from sol, robots and computers from barnards star. This route is so safe you can sell your laser for more cargo space.

Kipper · Nov 5, 2006

I'm flying an Imp Courier now, decent size and speed (other ships in the class are so big and slow even a blind man could shoot you down) and even with lots of kit, full compliment of missiles, 4mw beam laser and 9 shields I have over 100t of space.

I made a few bucks shipping luxury goods from sol to van maanens star, thats a safe route and since its technically contraband (but they dont seem to check at vms) you can make a fortune - sometimes it even comes right up on the bulletin board 'wanted: luxury goods' and the price is in excess of 5000cr per unit

Really need to replace my Class 5 drive though but there doesnt seem to be a military drive above class 3... I need a class 5 or 6

Just done a few missions with the killing of dentara rast, the spies at urtize and the legal academy. I think this is about as far as I ever got when I played the game the first time round... its all coming back to me

kestrel pilot · Nov 6, 2006

I have a hex edited game save file I made with 150,000,000+ credits and a souped up kestrel airfighter (6000 ly range, 60.1g fore and aft accel, thargoid laser, 10 missile pylons, 45000 tons capacity). If you want it, let me know and I'll email it wherever you'd like. Makes the game too easy though, as you can simply purchase (exactly) 1023 shield generators (any more and it resets to zero) and you are essentially invulnerable. Fun if you wanna fly through the middle of a star (I've done it in this ship) or just have a crack at the police, pirates, other ships, etc...