Finally gave up on the Thrustmaster T.16000m

leeG

leeG
I’ve been using a dual T.16000m joystick set-up since I started playing ED in 3303. The thing that made them useful for me in VR is the ability to program a short-long button press protocol on the top stick buttons to double their functionality. The Hall sensors on the pitch and roll axis are accurate, but the joystick is let down by the weak twist axis which is prone to failure over time. I put up with having to replace joysticks periodically when the twist axis became erratic since they were cheap enough and the convenience of programming my own custom TARGET scripts more than made up for it.

Recently, I bought two new T.16000m sticks to replace the two I’m currently using because the current sticks twist axis are showing signs of failing. Plugged the new sticks into my computer, fired up TARGET and it wouldn’t work with the new sticks. Plugged the old sticks back in and it worked fine. Uninstalled and reinstalled TARGET and the new sticks still didn’t work but the old ones did. Never had a problem swapping in a new stick before, having done it six times or more. For me, no TARGET, no T.16000m. Without my TARGET script they don’t have enough buttons to be useful. Returned the new sticks as non-functional with TARGET. BTW, I couldn’t get them to work with the TARGET GUI either, since that is just a graphical interface to easily generate a TARGET script.

So I’m taking the time before my current sticks finally give up the ghost get a pair of new joysticks and set them up. Ordered a pair of VKB Gladiator NXT EVO ‘Space Combat Edition’ Premiums, which should provide ample buttons and axis. Looks like they will be much more durable and are actually user maintainable. The twist axis also looks more robust. Just wondering how long it will take this 74 year old brain to reprogram itself to a new stick configuration.
 
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Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
Riverside said:
You won't regret it ;)
Click to expand...
I second that. The Gladiator EVO might be the best bang for the buck out there. Not exactly cheap like the TMs or the X52, but affordable enough, and they punch way above their weight class. Frankly they make everything else affordable out there look like toys.

Also, the ample POVs of the premium grip (each with a center push) allow for more logical distribution of your binds, so you can pretty much group stuff together and forget about modifiers. I have bound pretty much everything I need without using modifiers, and I have actually unbound buttons or POV directions left on my sticks.

For example, on the right stick I use the center POV for PIPs, the left one for fire groups, the right one for ship utilities (landing gear, cargo scoop, lights and NV) and the thumb POV for supercruise speed (0/25/50/75/100 percent). On the left stick I use the center POV for targeting (hostiles up/down, general targeting left right), left POV for countermeasures (heatsink, SCB, pulse neutralizer, ECM, chaff), the right POV for subsystems and the thumb POV for navigational stuff (supercruise, hyperjump, next target). The only modifier I use is the left pinkie, which I use for UI focus, so I can navigate the ship panels with the center POV on the right stick.
 

Ydiss

Ydiss
You absolutely will not regret it.

I have both the right stick and the left set up as omni-throttle and it's transformed the game for me. I've never bothered with sticks because I've never been able to justify spending £500+ on them and I took one look at sticks like the T.16000 and it just looks cheap, if I'm honest (and yet retails for around £100, which is cheap for sticks but still...) I reckon I'd break that as fast as I used to break my old Amiga joysticks :D The VBK is nice and sturdy and feels premium, despite being priced right at the very low end of premium sticks. The thing I love the most about it is they support RTR, so if anything does break I can order in a replacement part and fix it myself (and they give you some replacement parts with it anyway).

It took me less than a day to sort out my bindings for the two VKBs, including both using the red A2 button as a shift for the other stick (and pressing both together fires boost), with some tweaking as I've continued to play. I don't think you'd normally need the shift functionality if you own two of these sticks though, as they have so many buttons. I'm just used to it from using keyboard and mouse and I want to avoid using keyboard for anything unless it's really niche (I actually don't have anything left on the keyboard I need to press actually, it's all mapped to the sticks - I just use kb and mouse when on foot, obviously).

The software comes across as daunting but it's actually really simple to use if you just google a guide for what you want to do. It's extremely flexible, allowing so many configurations, it's unreal. I kept mine mostly simple though, opting to keep the defaults for most stuff and just mapping them as secondary options in Elite. I love the fact that I can swap out the POV hats for the digital hats if I want (and I think I will for the left stick as I just don't need it analogue).

So yeh. You won't regret it :)
 

Shinkick Murphy

Shinkick Murphy
leeG said:
I’ve been using a dual T.16000m joystick set-up since I started playing ED in 3303. The thing that made them useful for me in VR is the ability to program a short-long button press protocol on the top stick buttons to double their functionality. The Hall sensors on the pitch and roll axis are accurate, but the joystick is let down by the weak twist axis which is prone to failure over time. I put up with having to replace joysticks periodically when the twist axis became erratic since they were cheap enough and the convenience of programming my own custom TARGET scripts more than made up for it.

Recently, I bought two new T.16000m sticks to replace the two I’m currently using because the current sticks twist axis are showing signs of failing. Plugged the new sticks into my computer, fired up TARGET and it wouldn’t work with the new sticks. Plugged the old sticks back in and it worked fine. Uninstalled and reinstalled TARGET and the new sticks still didn’t work but the old ones did. Never had a problem swapping in a new stick before, having done it six times or more. For me, no TARGET, no T.16000m. Without my TARGET script they don’t have enough buttons to be useful. Returned the new sticks as non-functional with TARGET. BTW, I couldn’t get them to work with the TARGET GUI either, since that is just a graphical interface to easily generate a TARGET script.

So I’m taking the time before my current sticks finally give up the ghost get a pair of new joysticks and set them up. Ordered a pair of VKB Gladiator NXT EVO ‘Space Combat Edition’ Premiums, which should provide ample buttons and axis. Looks like they will be much more durable and are actually user maintainable. The twist axis also looks more robust. Just wondering how long it will take this 74 year old brain to reprogram itself to a new stick configuration.
Click to expand...

Hello leeG,

this might be a little late, but there is a solution for the twist axis of the T16000 becoming erratic. In the past I managed to buy a new one with an erratic axis and I made it work.
This is actually a widely known issue for that stick, unfortunately. To counter the erratic twist, you have to loosen the screws on the grip and pry the top open a little bit. There are a few tutorials on youtube which will show you in detail what you need to do. So, if you manage to open it, even just a little, you will see the part that facilitates the twist sitting in the middle of the handle. On top of it there is a small metal plate or something like that. What you do now is take a Qtip or something similar, positively drown it in WD40 and then clean that metal top bit of the twist thingy. In the past I found out that also just giving it a good spray with WD40 and then taking away the excess fluid with a paper cloth or Qtip will work.
This will reliably solve the "erratic twist axis" problem and you can continue to use that nice and cheap stick until it happens again (from my experience I have to do it about once a year). If it doesn't work on the first try, give it a second clean and then it definitely should work.
This solution is "super easy, barely an inconvenience" ;)
Sorry for not providing a youtube link but as I said, you can easily find it yourself.

On another note, Elite allows for double, triple etc key bindings by itself, I've never used the TARGET software.
You have to sort of use one of your buttons as a "shift key", I use a slider button on my Thrustmaster throttle for that, thereby easily doubling the available buttons on my HOTAS by holding down said key and then pressing the other desired button in Elite's keybindings. It will appear as something like "Joy 13 + Joy 10" in the Elite bindings then.

Fly safe Cmdr!
O7
 

leeG

leeG
Shinkick Murphy said:
Hello leeG,

this might be a little late, but there is a solution for the twist axis of the T16000 becoming erratic. In the past I managed to buy a new one with an erratic axis and I made it work.
This is actually a widely known issue for that stick, unfortunately. To counter the erratic twist, you have to loosen the screws on the grip and pry the top open a little bit. There are a few tutorials on youtube which will show you in detail what you need to do. So, if you manage to open it, even just a little, you will see the part that facilitates the twist sitting in the middle of the handle. On top of it there is a small metal plate or something like that. What you do now is take a Qtip or something similar, positively drown it in WD40 and then clean that metal top bit of the twist thingy. In the past I found out that also just giving it a good spray with WD40 and then taking away the excess fluid with a paper cloth or Qtip will work.
This will reliably solve the "erratic twist axis" problem and you can continue to use that nice and cheap stick until it happens again (from my experience I have to do it about once a year). If it doesn't work on the first try, give it a second clean and then it definitely should work.
This solution is "super easy, barely an inconvenience" ;)
Sorry for not providing a youtube link but as I said, you can easily find it yourself.

On another note, Elite allows for double, triple etc key bindings by itself, I've never used the TARGET software.
You have to sort of use one of your buttons as a "shift key", I use a slider button on my Thrustmaster throttle for that, thereby easily doubling the available buttons on my HOTAS by holding down said key and then pressing the other desired button in Elite's keybindings. It will appear as something like "Joy 13 + Joy 10" in the Elite bindings then.

Fly safe Cmdr!
O7
Click to expand...
Thanks for info. I have a few T-16000 sticks lying around with erratic twist axis to experiment with and may give this a try, But I do think its time to move on from Thrustmaster since they haven't done anything to improve the stick over the years, except change the color scheme from green to orange.

Yes, I know I can set up a shift key in Elite, but with TARGET I don't need to lose a key for the shift, just directly assigh multiple actions on each key with the short/long press protocol. And actions can be multiple key press strings. In VR I want to do as much as I can with both hands on the stick using just the top stick buttons.

Looking forward to the Gladiator.
 

Mohrgan

Mohrgan
I have been happily using the TM TWCS throttle with a Glad-NXT space sim std stick, for a couple of weeks now. They have been working out great together. My TM stick had to be replaced due to the Z axis, when I got a brand new one it had the same trouble. Straight out of the box.

Enter the Gladiator. It is miles above the T-16k in all aspects of performance. There is no real comparison. To top it all off, I discovered ED has a button cap, and between the two controllers, I have exceeded that cap. Nice right? I had to down load VKB's "Button Tester" software to check the buttons that wouldn't map in ED. They all worked fine. I am kinda glad I didn't succumb to my urge to buy the Premium space sim grip. I can't imagine anyone having a complaint about the VKB. It scratches all of my itches.
 
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[VR] DDM_Reaper20

[VR] DDM_Reaper20
I think dust is the culprit in case of the T16000 twist issue.

I keep mine in a plastic bag when not in use--so far, no problems (keeps fingers crossed). It's been about two years with this one -- others failed far quicker (I had not thought of covering them).

I have been eyeing the Gladiator myself, but right now, there are other, more important things, so... maybe in the future. :D
 

robbyp

robbyp
Direct x input has a 32 button limit per controller normally. That is the limit. Not a global one across all controllers.
 

Riverside

Riverside
robbyp said:
Direct x input has a 32 button limit per controller normally. That is the limit. Not a global one across all controllers.
Click to expand...

VKBCfg allows you to split each controller into two (or more) as a workaround for the 32 button limit. AFAIK target software combines Thustmaster controllers.
 

leeG

leeG
Riverside said:
VKBCfg allows you to split each controller into two (or more) as a workaround for the 32 button limit. AFAIK target software combines Thustmaster controllers.
Click to expand...
There is a limit to the number of DirectX buttons, but with TARGET I programmed button presses to give keyboard output, so no limit on useable buttons. The Gladiator lets you map buttons to keyboard too, so you should easily be able to use all the buttons..
 

Riverside

Riverside
leeG said:
There is a limit to the number of DirectX buttons, but with TARGET I programmed button presses to give keyboard output, so no limit on useable buttons. The Gladiator lets you map buttons to keyboard too, so you should easily be able to use all the buttons..
Click to expand...

The VKBcfg software is (imo) powerful & versatile but has a more complex, less intuitive user interface (compared to Thrustmaster Target). I don't think there will be anything you did with Target that VKBcfg can't also do. Could be worthwhile downloading the pdf user manual for the software while you wait for the hardware to arrive:

VKBDevCfg/ native software manual/ April 2023 update - VKB-SIM

forum.vkb-sim.pro forum.vkb-sim.pro
 

robbyp

robbyp
Riverside said:
VKBCfg allows you to split each controller into two (or more) as a workaround for the 32 button limit. AFAIK target software combines Thustmaster controllers.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

I was responding to the "To top it all off, I discovered ED has a button cap," statement which was incorrect. Direct X per controller has the button cap per controller (be it a physical device or a target synthetic device).

I still can't understand why the OP can't get Target to work with his new sticks. There is no indication on thrustmasters website that the newer T.16000m variants don't support target.
 

CMDR Harada

CMDR Harada
Like you, I had multiple issues with multiple T16ks. I won't bash the device, it's flaws are well known, and it's a good ( cheap ) entry level stick. But only for casual intermittent use.

The MAIN issue you'll have running dual VKBs is being able to do so many things with the ample buttons. I spent a few weeks mapping and re-mapping controls. It's a rabbit hole, both deep and vast. Had mine for a few years and still very happy.

One ( unsolicited ) tip I will give you : There is an option in the VKB software to map a button ( or hat ) to a keyboard emulated button. IE, " right hat #3" can be mapped to a keyboard "G". This allows you to step around the 32 button limit without splitting each stick into 2 sticks ( in effect running 4 ). It was easier for me to do this than trying to keep 4 logical sticks in my head. Plus I could use the ED default mappings for a lot of stuff.
 

Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
robbyp said:
Thanks.

I was responding to the "To top it all off, I discovered ED has a button cap," statement which was incorrect. Direct X per controller has the button cap per controller (be it a physical device or a target synthetic device).

I still can't understand why the OP can't get Target to work with his new sticks. There is no indication on thrustmasters website that the newer T.16000m variants don't support target.
Click to expand...
Maybe I am miscounting, but I think it is actually possible to break the 32 button limit on a single NXT EVO Premium:

  • Two stage trigger (2 buttons, 2 total)
  • Rapid fire trigger (2 buttons, 4 total)
  • Pinkie (5 total)
  • red thumb (6 total)
  • side (7 total)
  • four POVs with center push (if you replace the analog stick with the supplied POV, 4x 5 = 20 buttons, 27 total)
  • three base buttons (30 total)
  • left encoder (two buttons, 32 total)
  • right encoder (two buttons, 34 total).

I have my sticks in exactly this configuration: the analog stick on my left stick started bouncing, and as I didn't need the analog stick, I replaced it with the POV module on both sticks. Now, I never had any issue binding everything, so I don't know if maybe the logical button signals coming from the encoders on the base do not count towards the 32 button limit. I only can tell you that I could bind every button on both sticks without issue.

Edit says: I just remembered have changed two buttons in the VKB software to do something else (i.e. not be joystick buttons), so this is probably why I don't run into the 32 button limit? But I am not sure. I don't think the numbering of the logical buttons was changed by this. In essence, I have no clue. /Edit

I any case, with my two EVOs I have easily more than 32 buttons in total, but this limit is per device. It becomes a problem when you mount a side extension to the sticks, but in that case you can configure the side module as its own device.
 
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Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
Also, personally I would never bother with a 16k again. The only things it has going for it are the relatively precise X and Y axis and it being convertable for left hand use. It has way to few buttons, the buttons it has are terribly placed, and the build quality is shoddy at best.
 
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