Elite / Frontier Finding it hard to get into this games :S

[Dogran]

But what would i know - it's only me we're talking about, perhaps i should bow to your oft-stated superior knowledge of my gameplay.

Steady on, guys. Deep breaths, eh? I've found this a friendly forum so far.

For what it's worth, knowing I'm not exactly yer kick-ass combat pilot yet, dynamically speaking both the points of view have merit, just depending on the style of the pilot. If the big ship you're attacking (or that's attacking you) lacks maneouvrability and you're in something smaller and more nimble then the world should be your oyster. Transversal velocity (sorry: EVE player here) is a killer for big ships because they can't hit what they, or their weapons turrets, can't keep up with.

On the other hand, being further away makes you a visibly smaller target and thus harder to hit by a manually controlled weapon (assuming the computer doesn't simply cheat and make its aim perfect, which I think we can say it doesn't, as a rule). Not to mention that a forward-mounted laser emitter only 'aims' based on the orientation of the ship it's mounted on, and that can translate the most dextrous mouse movements into lumbering and swinging around. I assume again that the game models this too.

In EVE - a game which, while not at all the same as FFE, still has a fairly logical combat system (modelling sensor cross-sections, sensor resolution, relative speeds, weapon tracking speeds and all sorts) - I have two good chances in combat: either be very far away and shoot from a distance; or be close up and moving very fast.

The only thing I can't really comment on - because I've never used one - is how turrets on the bigger ships work in FFE. Do NPC ships mount them, and if so, how fast and accurate are they?

 

[turwhitt]

Well yes - quite. It's usually a friendly forum, hence why i was rather put out that someone considers themselves so superior that their style of flying is the only valid one, and that any others are full of "glaring tactical errors". Arrogant individual.

Anyway, no i've never seen an enemy use anything other than their front gun.

 

[DraQ]

Arrogant individual.

How does ability to recognise unnecessarily risky tactic as such equate with arrogance?

If you fight a ship that is basically a flying cannon (IE + PA/100MW beam), it's a good idea to not allow it to fire at you, because if it does, it may hit you and, if it does, it *will* kill you. If you fly away before doing another attack run you are taking chances, as the large ship can catch up with your manoeuvre - it doesn't matter if you're a difficult target with small rear profile and if you have great piloting skills (which I don't doubt you do) - the guy in the biggie only needs to be lucky once.

If you don't break off unless you really have too (incoming naval missile, fire from other craft), you can not only prevent the biggie from ever getting their sights on you, you can also continue to chip away at their hull when you'd be preparing for another attack run if you used your tactics. It's less of an issue if you use pulse laser, especially 30MW one, but even then it's desirable to continue pounding if you're in a position to do so - recharge times aren't nearly as long as retreat-attack run cycle.

I came to this forum for two reasons:
1) Because I like FE2/FFE and was completely enamored with them when I discovered them
2) Because, unlike some other places, including virtually all official fora, this forum has level-headed moderators and smart users. This means good atmosphere for some discussion and proper discussion involves people using arguments rather than just being argumentative (or, even worse, calling mods to remove the mean person who has just disagreed with them as I've seen too many times on other fora). Therefore I'd kindly ask you to elaborate what did you mean by saying

I find that if you stick around close for too long then you get killed.

because, so far, I fail to see the causal relationship here.

Regarding the turrets:
Alas, the NPCs don't use them. With their almost insta-tracking speed, I guess it's only good, as keeping as far away as possible might be the only viable tactics then.

(Note to Braben: Rework turret mechanics in E4, pretty please!)

 

[Michael Brookes]

Let's keep this civilised please.

Michael

 

[turwhitt]

How does ability to recognise unnecessarily risky tactic as such equate with arrogance?

You've slam-dunked yourself with that sentence. It's the way you arrogantly state that only your way is any good, and that other styles of play must be wrong. As another person has stated above, there is more than one way to play the game (much like skinning a cat), so it's up to whatever works for the individual. Where most reasonable people would have just said "I try to stay alongside the enemy rather than go for another run", you have to say something like "well that's a glaring tactical error" like you are some sort of guru lording it over us plebs. It's just rude.

And what i mean by "if you stick around close for too long you get killed" is just that. I get a few seconds in the "sweet spot" before the enemy manages to manouver round to shoot at me. Like i said in an earlier attempt to defuse the situation, perhaps you fly smaller ships than i do, and are able to stay in the "sweet spot", but that's not possible in the bigger ships, or so i find.

It's a shame you can't just accept that not everyone is the same and there is no "one way".

 

[Stefan Mars]

As another person has stated above, there is more than one way to play the game (much like skinning a cat), so it's up to whatever works for the individual.

Personally - as a kid - I just bought the biggest ship I could (in Frontier), filled it with shield and set the autopilot to ram my target. It was my way of dealing with the physics at the time.

As said there are multiple ways of dealing with it and as long as the individual gets enjoyment out of it then it is fine. I had fun, but then I was much more a trader anyway than someone who went looking for fights. I probably had more fun later on once I learnt to deal "properly" with the newtonian flightmodel, but that is a story for another time.

Draq, could you enlighten me what you would want changed with the turrets? You want NPCs to use them and their tracking to be slowed down compared to the previous games?

Oh, and if you guys want to continue arguing then I would suggest you write a draft message, delete it, take deep breath and write a second response that you actually post. Works wonders for me at least even though some of my co-workers here will wonder what the first draft looks like when I can say the things I say in my second drafts

 

[Sir.Tj]

Personally - as a kid - I just bought the biggest ship I could (in Frontier), filled it with shield and set the autopilot to ram my target. It was my way of dealing with the physics at the time.

As said there are multiple ways of dealing with it and as long as the individual gets enjoyment out of it then it is fine. I had fun, but then I was much more a trader anyway than someone who went looking for fights. I probably had more fun later on once I learnt to deal "properly" with the newtonian flightmodel, but that is a story for another time.

What do you mean as a kid???

Thats what I do now!!

 

[DraQ]

You've slam-dunked yourself with that sentence. It's the way you arrogantly state that only your way is any good, and that other styles of play must be wrong.

Sigh...

First, I don't see why you're all riled up. True, I might be somewhat blunt sometimes, but if someone told me "listen, your tactics sucks because of <this> and <this>, you'd be better off using this tactics <description>." I'd either counter his arguments or acknowledge the superiority of his tactics and be happy that I learned something new. Under no circumstance would I get angry because someone dared to attack my pet tactics, and that's what you're doing here, because I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your position. This is called 'discussion' and can be a very enjoyable and stimulating activity.

Second, unlike some things like skin colour, choice of career (both in RL and in Frontier) and artistic or sexual preferences, there is such thing as superior tactics in a given situation - the tactics is superior if it minimizes the risk and maximizes the effectiveness. Using my tactics you'll kill the enemy craft faster (no break-off - attack run cycles) and face zero probability that you'll get hit with beam weapon (vs. slim, but finite likelihood that the enemy will manage to hit your waning rear profile and make The Autumn of the Middle Ages out of your rear end). If the enemy was using turrets and rear guns I'd either modify my tactics or acknowledge the superiority of yours (or try and fail at former then proceed to do the latter).

Third, I fly larger ship - Asp is larger than Cobra. You could argue that marginally better acceleration of an Asp makes up for it's significantly larger silhouette and makes all the difference here, but I also made this with IC (equipped with 1MW pulse, as a part of contest, I don't want to repeat this experience ever again) against IE plus escorts, and IC is both large and sluggish - certainly not my craft of choice. You probably just don't stick close enough.

Fourth, I'm not a guru, nor do I fancy myself as one. I'm simply slightly above average pilot and commander, who wants to discuss stuff and help others while learning some new stuff in the process as well. Hell, I can't even reliably evade a missile in FFE, while I know at least one person who managed to evade five simultaneously - judging by this my skills are rather humble, don't you think?

 

[turwhitt]

Sigh...

This is called 'discussion' and can be a very enjoyable and stimulating activity.

Patronisation now, is it?

And no, what you have said isn't discussion, it's rudeness and closed-mindedness. I'm all up for discussion, but not when someone plain dismisses my point of view as erroneous and worthless.

Anyway, we've been asked to leave this alone. Shall we do so?

 

[DraQ]

Draq, could you enlighten me what you would want changed with the turrets? You want NPCs to use them and their tracking to be slowed down compared to the previous games?

Yes and yes. In previous games the turrets were insta-tracking (could even be rotated when game was paused), and NPCs weren't using them which made all the large freighters sitting ducks.

Some further fiddling around - maybe adding multiple turret hardpoints, or even treating them as separate mini-hulls with their own armour, limited capacity and susceptibility to be destroyed independently form the rest of the craft - might be welcome.

Oh, and if you guys want to continue arguing then I would suggest you write a draft message, delete it, take deep breath and write a second response that you actually post. Works wonders for me at least even though some of my co-workers here will wonder what the first draft looks like when I can say the things I say in my second drafts

No need to. I, regretfully, find further discussion pointless.
I also failed to reproduce the "death by sticking close" scenario, except when not sticking close enough.

Patronisation now, is it?

And I thought the winking smiley would be a dead give-away...

closed-mindedness.

Sorry, in my closed-mindedness I outright dismiss it as erronous when someone equates any and all forms of criticism with closed-mindedness.

Anyway, we've been asked to leave this alone. Shall we do so?

If you insist so.

I'm an Arrogant Individual, after all (would make a nice custom title, BTW, mods?), heavens forbid that I turn out to be an elitist as well.
*smile*