First serious attempt at combat fixed weapons and FA off

[CMDRQuainMarln]

I've dabbled a bit with rail guns before with little success and fought my way to Expert rank in Combat while attaining Elite in exploration and trading by max engineering everything on a Krait II and using boost for faster turns. In this way the illusion of being great at combat is created as I can take out wings of 3, solo some wing assassination missions and High Intensity CZs.
Before I do the grind for Gauss cannons etc for serious AX combat, I've outfitted a Cheiftan with a small fix beam laser with thermal vent experimental, rail guns as a substitute for Gauss cannons and a size 2 heat speaker missile launcher I had lying around where a flack launcher would go for Thargoid combat. I've taken it to a compromised Nav beacon to practice FA off and relative mouse settings to see what I can blow up with this set up.
Imperial Clipper - Yeah, I killed it eventually but that's mostly because it didn't fire back that often and spent a lot of time hanging in space doing nothing while I tried to line up shots.
I then tried an ASP Scout right after the Clipper which never fired back or tried to run away, but I ran out of rail gun ammo before I could destroy it. I guess it had no weapons fitted...

So I'm still bad with fixed mount weapons, especially when there is a delay before they fire like with rail guns. Just can't seem to keep on target often enough, although I do find it easier with FA off and relative mouse settings to score hits than FA on and regular mouse settings. I wasn't having much fun doing this, though the Cheiftan is still appealing to use as a platform for experimenting with other easier to use weapons outside of the usual lasers and MCs.
Just how long did it take you to get good with fixed weapons??

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

Define ”good”. There are a lot of levels in between ”can’t hit anything” and ”hits everything at max fire rate”.

 

[CMDRQuainMarln]

Define ”good”. There are a lot of levels in between ”can’t hit anything” and ”hits everything at max fire rate”.

I'll go for can destroy ships just as quickly as using gimballed lasers and multi-canons as a start for "good". That probably means hitting at least 2/3rds pf the time.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

I don't think many people use rails while FA-OFF, that would be more feasible for PAs or hitscan weapons, but then I see rails as the de-facto long range weapon.
I found a Krait MKII to be sufficiently manouvrable to aim PAs while FA-OFF while also being not too 'twitchy' so it's probably a good choice to learn FA-OFF better, but to be honest lazy old me finds that FA-ON combined with some boost / FA-OFF turning to be better.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Not long. There is some kind of sweet spot distance for the auto-aim but it's not optimal for the damage fall-off. You can of course use the reverski to maximise on-target time and long range mods . It all pretty much trivialises the game if you just engineer the crap out of it.

 

[Vandaahl]

Fa off only isn't the silver bullet, like at all. I've lived with the toggle for years, and still find the combo most convenient. Fa on has its uses, especially the switch from Fa off to Fa on, use it to your advantages. Fa off is great to improve time on target, but while you are there, whats wrong with toggling Fa back to on when it improves aiming?

If you are a mouse/keyboard user, toggling is possible:

So, you want a Relative Mouse toggle? Here it is... ### DIY GUIDE ###

@CMDR Spadino , thx a bunch for the push in the right direction(y) Respect for sharing knowledge and inspiring others, well done! The provided solution in the OP didn't work for me at first, but thats a personal thing and is not a value judgement of any kind, can't stretch that enough! The...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[Northpin]

I've dabbled a bit with rail guns before with little success and fought my way to Expert rank in Combat while attaining Elite in exploration and trading by max engineering everything on a Krait II and using boost for faster turns. In this way the illusion of being great at combat is created as I can take out wings of 3, solo some wing assassination missions and High Intensity CZs.
Before I do the grind for Gauss cannons etc for serious AX combat, I've outfitted a Cheiftan with a small fix beam laser with thermal vent experimental, rail guns as a substitute for Gauss cannons and a size 2 heat speaker missile launcher I had lying around where a flack launcher would go for Thargoid combat. I've taken it to a compromised Nav beacon to practice FA off and relative mouse settings to see what I can blow up with this set up.
Imperial Clipper - Yeah, I killed it eventually but that's mostly because it didn't fire back that often and spent a lot of time hanging in space doing nothing while I tried to line up shots.
I then tried an ASP Scout right after the Clipper which never fired back or tried to run away, but I ran out of rail gun ammo before I could destroy it. I guess it had no weapons fitted...

So I'm still bad with fixed mount weapons, especially when there is a delay before they fire like with rail guns. Just can't seem to keep on target often enough, although I do find it easier with FA off and relative mouse settings to score hits than FA on and regular mouse settings. I wasn't having much fun doing this, though the Cheiftan is still appealing to use as a platform for experimenting with other easier to use weapons outside of the usual lasers and MCs.
Just how long did it take you to get good with fixed weapons??

Interceptors are much easier to hit with gausses than NPC ships like Eagles, Vipers or Vultures.
Interceptors are big and not evasive at all.

The only thing you have to master is FA Off Cold orbit and being able to split the gausses in primary and secondary triggers and fire them alternately so your ship's heat doesnt go above 20%
Then you need to learn the enrage timers for the 4 types of interceptors and make sure you dont enrage them.

Then it's only a matter of how much time you want to spend killing each type.
Once you learn the ropes, the routine is basically the same, it just takes longer since they gradually have more armor hardness and more hearts requiring an increased amount of shots to get a kill

You can minimize that time by flying a ship that can fire 4 medium gausses and at least a Flak.
Krait Mk2 comes to mind - it has really nice weapon placement, ideal for splitting the gausses in 2x2 for left/right triggers, enough speed and enough internals for a nice solid cold build.

Then you'll soon start to wonder what's all this fuss about killing interceptors.

 

[Marziano Inside]

I find myself using more the lateral thrusters than fa off, to stay on target. I turn off fa just for very rapid turns and drifts, when the need arises. A toggle switch on my throttle that i can reach with my thumb works very well for this.

 

[Greybeard Seawolf]

I can't comment on Rail guns or FA off but switching away from gimballed weapons would be much easier if fixed weapons came with a sign saying "Don't Panic" in large friendly letters. Gimballed made me lazy, requiring me only to keep the enemy in front of me, I developed a lead trigger finger reflex that doesn't work with fixed. So yeah my advice is to relax until your reflex muscle memory adjusts, let you shields do the work and take your time observing how your shots move as you lead on the target;. It will come with time.

 

[galahad2069]

I don't think many people use rails while FA-OFF, that would be more feasible for PAs or hitscan weapons, but then I see rails as the de-facto long range weapon.

That's not true, everyone can use rails or any other kind of weapons in FAoff, at least everyone who's no longer at noob level.

I found a Krait MKII to be sufficiently manouvrable to aim PAs while FA-OFF

The problem with Kraits is their utterly crappy boost, that's what makes them patheticallly bad combat ships.

while also being not too 'twitchy'

'Twitchiness' is only a matter of control settings.

so it's probably a good choice to learn FA-OFF

No, it's not. The best ship to learn FAoff combat is one with a strong boost and good lats/verts, like the FDL or the Vipers. It's also the best way to learn how to use PA's (there is no such thing as "PA aim", landing PA volleys consistently is all about flying the ship the right way: manipulating the reticle, timing boosts, preturning and controlling range).

but to be honest lazy old me finds that FA-ON combined with some boost / FA-OFF turning to be better.

The best way to learn FAoff combat is turn FA off and leave it there all the time (while in combat, at the very least). Toggling (=full FAoff with occasional short FAon periods) is a somewhat advanced technique (you need to learn how and when it's advantageous to use it, but it's better to learn full FAoff first).

Toggling the other way round (flying FAon with FAoff turns) is not FAoff flying, it's not very much better than full FAon.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

That's not true, everyone can use rails or any other kind of weapons in FAoff, at least everyone who's no longer at noob level.

I didn't say you 'can't', just that from what I have seen and heard, most people (and by most I don't mean most pvp-ers, who are a relative minority of the player base) aim rails using FA-ON.

The problem with Kraits is their utterly crappy boost, that's what makes them patheticallly bad combat ships.

A Krait can boost almost continuously with only 2 pips to thrusters and it has a crappy boost? I would say it's one of it's strong points, along with its huge PD. That doesn't mean I think it's much good in PvP.

As for the 'twitchiness', I was referring to how easy it is to stabilize before firing in FA-OFF. I find my rail conda much easier in fA-OFF than a small ship, especially from long distance, because it's a stable platform.

 

[galahad2069]

A Krait can boost almost continuously with only 2 pips to thrusters and it has a crappy boost?

Yes, because its boost is very weak. It takes 2 (or maybe 3) boosts to change its velocity 180 degrees to the opposite direction (full boost speed to one direction to full boost speed to the opposite one).

On ships with strong boost such a velocity change takes only 1 boost.

Just give it a try: boost, then turn around and boost again once: the Krait will continue to drift backwards (slowly), it won't even come to a full stop.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

A Krait can boost almost continuously with only 2 pips to thrusters and it has a crappy boost?

It is not about the boost frequency, it is about the boost profile itself.

 

[VR andysonofbob]

I combat PvE all the time 100% FA off using fixed weapons.
Even fixed weapons have some seek when you get close enough.
I do tend to use either 100% hit scan or 100% kinetic. I find I am too noob (or lazy) to mix between the two eg. Lasers and mcs.
Once you get into it, I think it becomes second nature to put the crosshairs onto a target.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Yes, because its boost is very weak. It takes 2 (or maybe 3) boosts to change its velocity 180 degrees to the opposite direction (full boost speed to one direction to full boost speed to the opposite one).

On ships with strong boost such a velocity change takes only 1 boost.

Just give it a try: boost, then turn around and boost again once: the Krait will continue to drift backwards (slowly), it won't even come to a full stop.

I have, but we should also take its mass into account, it's not a small ship. However we are losing track of the point the OP wanted to make about FA-OFF. What do we say, 'get gud, you should be able to fly any ship with any weapon FA-OFF'?
Some people CAN for sure, but as for aiming fixed weapons FA-OFF, where would you start? With rails?? Personally I would try hit-scan weapons, then PAs, then rails, and I found the Krait to be good for fixed weapons in general due to its convergence, and also easier to aim with than smaller ships, but a lot of that is down to personal preference for sure.

 

[CMDR Harada]

Fixed weapons and FA-Off are two different skills. Each one gives you a slight edge ( maybe 5-7% ), just like engineering. Taken together, tho, and WOW.. Not to say you can't use fixed weapons with FA-off, and vice-versa. It wouldn't be optimal, but...

If you've become 'good' with both, then you're ahead of the vast majority of players. Good of course being relative, but I'd define it as being able to take out wings of NPC ships by yourself. If you can do that, then you should be able to fend off a single experienced PvP'er. And if you can do that, then you're ahead of 90% of the other CMDRs.

Good luck ! It takes a ton of practice. Like LOTs. Some of the tutorials help a lot. Hours doing 'roid/tethering exercises.

Totally worth it tho. Adding up those small small improvements pays off huge when you need it.

 

[galahad2069]

I have, but we should also take its mass into account, it's not a small ship. However we are losing track of the point the OP wanted to make about FA-OFF. What do we say, 'get gud, you should be able to fly any ship with any weapon FA-OFF'?

The thing is that PA shots inherit the velocity of the firing ship. Which means that while you're drifting backwards it's pointless to shoot because you will most probably miss (because the absolute velocity of the plasma ball will be too slow). Ideally you can only make use of the DPS potential of PA's if you can land a volley during every single boost (or every other maybe). But it won't work on a Krait because only during every 3rd (or 4th or 5th) boost will you be able to land a shot because your velocity vector is not going to point to the right direction most of the time. Basically what the Krait does is wasting most of its boosts to be able to rotate the ship with an acceptable angular velocity (outside of boosts it's not nearly agile enough) and only every Nth boost will actually take you where you want to go.

Some people CAN for sure, but as for aiming fixed weapons FA-OFF, where would you start? With rails?? Personally I would try hit-scan weapons, then PAs, then rails, and I found the Krait to be good for fixed weapons in general due to its convergence, and also easier to aim with than smaller ships, but a lot of that is down to personal preference for sure.

Aiming fixed hitscan in FAoff is a bit easier with mouse+keyboard than it is with a HOTAS, but I'm 100% sure it's totally doable with the latter as well (for example among the top PvPers there are users of all kind of control setups you can imagine: not only M+KB, but dual sticks, HOTAS etc., there's even someone who is absolutely competitive with his xbox controller). Maybe those non-M+KB type control methods require more fiddling with calibration or generally have a steeper learning curve, but it's not at all impossible to master them. Since I'm using a 24-button gaming mouse and a keypad myself I can only tell how to set up a M+KB rig, I don't know a thing about joystick calibration, but since I'm regularly playing with joystick users who are very good at using all kind or weapons including railguns, I know for 100% sure that it's possible.

 

[Brother Sabathius]

I've dabbled a bit with rail guns before with little success and fought my way to Expert rank in Combat while attaining Elite in exploration and trading by max engineering everything on a Krait II and using boost for faster turns. In this way the illusion of being great at combat is created as I can take out wings of 3, solo some wing assassination missions and High Intensity CZs.
Before I do the grind for Gauss cannons etc for serious AX combat, I've outfitted a Cheiftan with a small fix beam laser with thermal vent experimental, rail guns as a substitute for Gauss cannons and a size 2 heat speaker missile launcher I had lying around where a flack launcher would go for Thargoid combat. I've taken it to a compromised Nav beacon to practice FA off and relative mouse settings to see what I can blow up with this set up.
Imperial Clipper - Yeah, I killed it eventually but that's mostly because it didn't fire back that often and spent a lot of time hanging in space doing nothing while I tried to line up shots.
I then tried an ASP Scout right after the Clipper which never fired back or tried to run away, but I ran out of rail gun ammo before I could destroy it. I guess it had no weapons fitted...

So I'm still bad with fixed mount weapons, especially when there is a delay before they fire like with rail guns. Just can't seem to keep on target often enough, although I do find it easier with FA off and relative mouse settings to score hits than FA on and regular mouse settings. I wasn't having much fun doing this, though the Cheiftan is still appealing to use as a platform for experimenting with other easier to use weapons outside of the usual lasers and MCs.
Just how long did it take you to get good with fixed weapons??

This is basically the same as I did. I really sucked with rail guns, so when I wanted to get into Thargoid combat, I fitted rails to my combat ships and forced myself to use them until I got better. Chieftain is a very good combat ship and my preferred choice for Thargoids.

I think it took me a weeks worth of practice in high-res to get to a point where I could be mostly accurate hitting shots in FA Off. Then I started on the Goids and my flying and accuracy continued to improve over the last 2 years.

 

[Northpin]

This is basically the same as I did. I really sucked with rail guns, so when I wanted to get into Thargoid combat, I fitted rails to my combat ships and forced myself to use them until I got better. Chieftain is a very good combat ship and my preferred choice for Thargoids.

I think it took me a weeks worth of practice in high-res to get to a point where I could be mostly accurate hitting shots in FA Off. Then I started on the Goids and my flying and accuracy continued to improve over the last 2 years.

IMO, best practice for rail/gauss practice are the thargoid scouts. They're fast and nimble, they can get rather dangerous, you get to get used with corrosion and to overcharge your ship to get rid of it and things like that.
After hunting scouts for a while, hitting Interceptors will be a breeze.

 

[Brother Sabathius]

IMO, best practice for rail/gauss practice are the thargoid scouts. They're fast and nimble, they can get rather dangerous, you get to get used with corrosion and to overcharge your ship to get rid of it and things like that.
After hunting scouts for a while, hitting Interceptors will be a breeze.

For sure, they are great target practice for Gauss. I practiced in high-res until I could hit medium sized ships.