Fix Combat-Logging

[Bortas]

Combat-Logging is currently one of the most game-breaking cheats in existence for pirates and PvP players in general. Although FD announced how seriously they are taking this issue, the attempt to manually track the cheaters down does not seem to have any effect. I'm still encountering as many combat loggers as ever.

That being said, I suggest the following attempt to disincentivize combat-logging.

The game is peer-to-peer which makes a fix difficult, but possible if we utilize the fact that we basically have a "triangular" connection. Both peers are connected to each other, and both are connected to the matchmaking-/transaction-server. We could utilize this to implement a solution as follows:

- If the p2p connection between the clients fails, but both server-connections are still intact, then nothing happens, since we can't tell, who's at fault.

- If the p2p connection fails and one of the clients loses the server connection at the same time, we can assume that he killed the process/pulled the cable. Once the player reconnects, he gets an insurance screen, as if his ship was destroyed.

As this is a pretty harsh punishment and we are all aware that "real" disconnects/crashes can happen, we need a few limitations to prevent innocent players being punished. This can be achieved as follows:

- Limit the mechanis to PvP combat only. Although combat logging can also be used in PvE combat, the effect is far less serious as other players are not affected. These cases have to be tracked the traditional way.

- Add a "grace count"... i.e. one incident per week will be overlooked.


Let's be honest here... how likely is experiencing 2 "legit" crashes in PvP in one week, especially for those people who try to avoid PvP anyway? Almost impossible. Combat loggers otoh are usually doing it regularly.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Why don't you just count the log as a kill and move on?

I'm not saying do nothing. I do wonder, however, just how important it really is that you see the explosion. If they log, you win, ne?

 

[GunnerBill]

You're going to have to fix crime and punishment at the same time.

Serial griefers suffer no consequences whatsoever despite sky high bounties.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

What's probably easier, is increase the timeout for the logger.
I know pulling the plug doesn't give you a 15 second timer, but if your ship was still vulnerable for up to say, 1 minute, even if you pull the plug. Then you wouldn't want to combat log.
Make it for logging involving PvP only too. As res crashing is very common right now. And it doesn't really effect anyone.
And, if you do happen to CTD while in a pvp battle, and die. You can submit a ticket, with the crash log, and get your money back.
And again, allow a grace of 1 per week. Which allows for power cuts, or other things you can't control.

But if you're a regular offender, your insurance starts going up!

 

[Bortas]

Why don't you just count the log as a kill and move on?

Because it just doesn't work that way for a pirate for obvious reasons. Just recently I spent an hour pirating and out of 6 player interdictions, 5 of them combat logged before I could even tell them what I wanted. I currently gave up on piracy because of combat logging.

If they log, you win, ne?

No, if they log, I lose (as described above)

 

[Asp Explorer]

Unfortunately - it cannot work.

- If the p2p connection between the clients fails, but both server-connections are still intact, then nothing happens, since we can't tell, who's at fault.

This is so open to abuse it's silly.

- If the p2p connection fails and one of the clients loses the server connection at the same time, we can assume that he killed the process/pulled the cable. Once the player reconnects, he gets an insurance screen, as if his ship was destroyed.

This is so open to abuse it's even sillier.

 

[Bortas]

Unfortunately - it cannot work.



This is so open to abuse it's silly.



This is so open to abuse it's even sillier.

So, to summarize everything... it cannot work because it's silly.

Yep, thanks for your constructive criticism

 

[Mephane]

- If the p2p connection fails and one of the clients loses the server connection at the same time, we can assume that he killed the process/pulled the cable. Once the player reconnects, he gets an insurance screen, as if his ship was destroyed.[/B]

If this were ever implemented as such, I would quit the game. Network disconnect happens. DSL is not infallible. Heck, the connection could fail on the server side end. The game may crash. The client PC may crash, freeze, or bluescreen. I can recall numerous occasions where I would have lost my ship and WEEKS of exploration data just from the PC freezing (I suspect an nVidia driver issue btw) so I had to reset it. The server would have seen this as a connection drop in the middle of playing, and destroyed my ship.

- Limit the mechanis to PvP combat only. Although combat logging can also be used in PvE combat, the effect is far less serious as other players are not affected. These cases have to be tracked the traditional way.

In other words: All of the above applies only when other players are around? If it were "only when shot at by players" then PvP combat logging could still happen before the first shot is fired, so the measure only works against some uses. That's a bit weak to incur such a drastic measure, so any actual implementation would probably be like "if any player is in the same instance". Which mitigates my above paragraph only insofar as now it is a double gamble: 1. does anything go wrong with the network or computer, 2. does a player happen to be around. (Also, a player in the instance might not be visible to you, because of the supercruise time horizon or normal flight scanner range, silent running etc. You may think you are alone but you aren't.)

I guess the one redeeming factor here is I could keep playing, forever limited to solo mode?

- Add a "grace count"... i.e. one incident per week will be overlooked.

I can tell frome experience than one per week is too few. You need more like a dozen per day for people with less stable internet connections.

Because it just doesn't work that way for a pirate for obvious reasons. Just recently I spent an hour pirating and out of 6 player interdictions, 5 of them combat logged before I could even tell them what I wanted. I currently gave up on piracy because of combat logging.

That is only the result of rampant psychopath behaviour and griefing, especially under the guise of pseudo-RP and pretend-piracy. People have long since learnt if someone interdicts you, even if they claim to be a pirate, chances are they are going to kill you no matter what you do, and if they even do demands, they may be utter ridiculous ("drop them only as legal canisters or we kill you"). It's not your fault, but it is also not the fault of those who would rather not fall victim to this again.

 

[Bortas]

If this were ever implemented as such, I would quit the game. Network disconnect happens. DSL is not infallible. Heck, the connection could fail on the server side end. The game may crash. The client PC may crash, freeze, or bluescreen. I can recall numerous occasions where I would have lost my ship and WEEKS of exploration data just from the PC freezing (I suspect an nVidia driver issue btw) so I had to reset it. The server would have seen this as a connection drop in the middle of playing, and destroyed my ship.

Well, as you have already realized this should only apply in PvP situations, so explorers and solo players are unaffected.

In other words: All of the above applies only when other players are around? If it were "only when shot at by players" then PvP combat logging could still happen before the first shot is fired, so the measure only works against some uses.

I'd say (as is now) the interdiction (or being shot at of course) should trigger the PvP combat situation.

Also, a player in the instance might not be visible to you, because of the supercruise time horizon or normal flight scanner range, silent running etc. You may think you are alone but you aren't.)

Doesn't matter. As long as he doesn't attack you, it doesn't apply.

I guess the one redeeming factor here is I could keep playing, forever limited to solo mode?

Honestly... do you have so many disconnects/crashes in PvP? Personally I'm actively looking for PvP and doing as much PvP as I can, and I can't remember ever experiencing this more than once a week.

I can tell frome experience than one per week is too few. You need more like a dozen per day for people with less stable internet connections.

Tbh this sounds like a very, very cheap excuse for combat loggers. If someone has such a bad internet connection, he's getting a dozen disconnects in PvP per day (heck, even as an active PvPer I don't even have 12 PvP encounters per day), he shouldn't play open, sorry.

That is only the result of rampant psychopath behaviour and griefing, especially under the guise of pseudo-RP and pretend-piracy. People have long since learnt if someone interdicts you, even if they claim to be a pirate, chances are they are going to kill you no matter what you do, and if they even do demands, they may be utter ridiculous ("drop them only as legal canisters or we kill you"). It's not your fault, but it is also not the fault of those who would rather not fall victim to this again.

Sorry, but my stance against cheating is very strict. There is no excuse for cheating... Never, no matter what. Cheaters should be banned for good or at the very least face the consequences for their cheating and lose their ships. If someone thinks he has to cheat to get along in open, he should play solo. Period.

Other games are handling it exactly as I described (just without the generous 1 free shot per week), and it works. What we currently have in ED, though is an invitation for cheaters. Cheaters have killed more than one game, when they got away with it. There might not be a perfect solution to tell cheating and actual technical failures apart, but something needs to be done, that's for sure. If you have a better idea (apart from ignoring the problem), I'm all ears.

 

[Mephane]

Sorry, but my stance against cheating is very strict. There is no excuse for cheating... Never, no matter what.

Oh I am also firmly against cheating in multiplayer situations, but the collateral damage of your suggestion is just too high imo. Let's phrase my standpoint a bit differently: how many innocent are you willing to sacrifice so that none guilty can go unpunished?

 

[Bortas]

Oh I am also firmly against cheating in multiplayer situations, but the collateral damage of your suggestion is just too high imo. Let's phrase my standpoint a bit differently: how many innocent are you willing to sacrifice so that none guilty can go unpunished?

Yes I know, it's a very difficult weighing of interests. But that's always the case, even in real life law we cannot be sure how many innocents are sentenced to jail (or worse). But does it mean we have to tolerate crime? No, of course not. We accept some collateral damage for the benefit of the society.

I think, when everybody knows the rules and no exceptions are made, my solution would be acceptable for everybody, though. People who want to be 100% safe could play solo for the rest of the week after they experienced a crash in PvP. So even if my suggestion was implemented, you could still play it safe and never lose a ship to a technical problem. Everyone else knows the risk and is willingly accepting it. Personally I would happily take that risk, if it eliminates combat-logging.

 

[NeilF]

You're going to have to fix crime and punishment at the same time.

Serial griefers suffer no consequences whatsoever despite sky high bounties.

^^ This 100%

All these things are linked, and simply "solving" one without the others will make matters worse IMHO.

Piracy needs to be given more viable/interesting mechanics. Crime and punishment needs to be made more logical and come down far harsher on Pilot Federation murder (destruction). More engaging/interesting PvP missions/tasks/outlets need to be offered by the game itself (missions pitting CMDRs against each other such as convoy attack/defense. Or capital ship attack/defense. Or station blockage enforcement/running etc). And then, (and only then), penalise combat logging...

I'd suggest repeat combat logging is warned about, and then continued repeat offenses in a given time frame are penalised with enforced, increasing time in SOLO...


I'll be 100% honest here... If I was in say an exploration ship, or empty trade ship, and I was set upon by someone clearly just out for the lolz, I'd be tempted to probably combat log out of principle (& not even bother to waste time SC'ing away). I'd prefer to have the lolz at their expense, and to penalise them, if the game isn't even attempting to create a logical environment!

When I've been pirated by CMDRs (properly) it's been great... But alas the game doesn't promote that experience, and worse still doesn't really penalise trolling...

 

[DocLooshkin]

Hello, bortaS.

Combat logging's been around since forever, as have many variations on your suggestion. FYI, I don't play in Open much (I'm not fond of being randomly shot to bits by trolls), and have never combat logged against another player, so please don't count me as one.

I disagree with your idea, not just for many of the reasons given by others, but also because I can see it being weaponised by cheaters.

Maintaining a connection to any server requires that the player's network-card, router, modem and ISP are all providing service more-or-less correctly. I've no idea if actual tests have been carried out, but it seems to me that if a DDoS attack is used against a player in combat, it's quite likely that one of those mechanisms will fail to maintain the connection to the central server, at which point the game will either crash or kick the player back to main menu. For all intents and purposes, it would look like a combat logging incident.

DDoS attacks are usually directed against companies, rather than individuals, so I think it's unlikely that the average network setup or the average ISP will offer much of a defense against this. DDoSing a company requires millions of connections, but DDoSing an individual IP address is likely to require far fewer connections, achievable with only a few machines. An unscrupulous player-group could use that to their advantage and - with just a few interdictions - effectively use it to kick players out of Open, more-or-less at will. Players with older hardware and players with cheapskate ISPs providing only the poorest of routers, would be especially vulnerable to such attacks.

Perhaps someone with in-depth technical knowledge could weigh in on the risks involved, but as it stands, I can't see your idea being good for the players on the receiving end, for the game, or for Frontier.

 

[Jabezz]

The appearance of this topic is as regular as clockwork.

The game interface is too unstable, pure and simple. I have never combat logged while playing ED. Yesterday I was logged by the unstable interface 4 or 5 times whilst in middle of dishing out some pain. Well on top of the battle, opponents shields down then whoops unable to connect to transaction server or whatever the screen says. What can you do about that?

OK yesterday as we all know was a particularly bad day for the servers but it still happens way too frequently for many of us. Certainly the OPs suggestion that more than once a week is unusual is laughable.

Yes cheating is out of order but you can't paint everyone with the same brush just to ensure PvP folk (me included) get their kills.