Fix for PvP/PvE and Grievers that all will like

[JohnnyDangerous]

Re: the never ending open vs solo / grieving discussion... how about this?

Problem: new players getting whooped by experienced. Fix: NPC wingmen protectors. I'm not talking about the security forces showing up a few minutes after being attacked, I'm talking NPC wingmen using the wing code, hire able at stations. Costs based on combat rank (harmless and mostly harmless is free, novice is a just a few hundred creds and up). These are overpowered NPCs, very aggressive AI, but still killable so a highly skilled griever could kill them but it'd be tough. This gives new players a chance, it's exciting, lore friendly, and the PvPers get to play too. You could role play it a bit and depending on the system/power play get either local police, military or mercenary depending on faction and powerplay setup.

Even established Elite traders with minimal combat skill/desire could still enjoy community goals but do so in open because if they get attacked their NPC wingman would definitely keep them alive until the local authorities showed up. BUT THESE GUARDS MUST BE OP'd. The current authority ships are easy to crush.

Any for the "There's no problem with open now" crowd, there is, otherwise it wouldn't be a topic. It's like global warming deniers... if it weren't a thing it wouldn't be a topic in the first place. There is no discussion over man-eating beavers for a reason.

Anyway, for your suggestion hat.

 

[Marra Morgan]

I'm sure the greifers would love some overpowered NPC wingmates to help them gank people.

 

[Misty_Dark]

I would have been very worried about beavers eating meat, as they apparently are vegetarians.




I do not think the the hiring of NPC wingmen is a viable solution. As I it would be of limited use to new players. They have alot of other stuff to figure out...
But we already have all the components for a solution in the game, that FDev have yet to actually leverage on. And any player can hire them to.. even the "bad" ones (as already pointed out by Kari)



Let a systems security level actually have a meaning...
And also we can have a few extra rules (CHEAT RULE) if the aggressor is a wanted player and the target is a player, that is clean and not pledge to a powerplay power.

So in a high security systems:
* Here authority ships should arrive ALOT faster in high security systems, maybe even within seconds
* Ships sent should always have combined firepower that is twice of what you got (if in wing, it is the combined power of the wing that counts)
* The difference in strength between aggressor and target should influence how much firepower the authority ships have, so if there is a big disparity in the aggressors favour, more authority ships will should be sent.
* Once detected doing attacks on any clean ship, Authority ships would try to interdict and destroy your ship as long as you are in the system.

* CHEAT RULE: Notoriety level dictates the number of ATR that is sent extra over the normal response, starting with one at notoriety = 5, two at notoriety 6, to 5 at notoriety = 10.
* CHEAT RULE: FSD disruption field, that blocks a specific FSD from engaging, making escape a bit harder for the aggressor. as you now have to outrun the authority ships before jumping away
* CHEAT RULE: If leaving the game by any means (any form of exiting the game while still in the instance), we keep the status and put you right back among the authority ships when you log back in. And it does not matter what game mode you choose.


So the above would make create relatively safe environment in high security systems. So for those that want have a relative safe experience, this is the place to be. New players should have a much easier timer to learn stuff




This is how we make it more dangerous for playing in systems with a lower lower security rating
* Medium security - weaker response (only matching the firepower) and slower response time. The notoriety CHEAT RULE starts at 7
* Low security - weaker response (only matching 50% of the firepower) and even longer response time, as they have to "travel" from the nearest high/medium security system, so distance is a factor here. The notoriety CHEAT RULE starts at 9.
* Anarchy systems - here no authority ships will come to your rescue.



And with the above rules we would push most of the ganker playstyle out of high security systems and mostly out of medium security systems.



Now we need to encourage players to visit anarchy systems, and we do this by offer higher rewards for mission from these systems.
So we can make transport mission (cargo passenger) to Anarchy system for max rewards. doing the same mission to high security system will have the lowest rewards.
We can also accept wet-work and piracy mission here, and if the target is in a high security those will pay the most, and doing these to an anarchy system would pay the lowest.




Now there is alot of more details to consider, but I think the overall concept should be clear. And this is just some suggestion how to use the existing mechanics in the game with a few tweaks. And note, there is no absolute safety, you can still get ganked, but it now takes alot more skill in high security systems.

 

[Six6VI]

I'm sure the greifers would love some overpowered NPC wingmates to help them gank people.

Shot that idea down pretty quick, lol

Those who aren't interested in getting ganked can just log out and hide in SOLO / PG, including murder hobos waiting on their notoriety countdown, which unbalances things like CG's and PP anyway, and makes the gankers cry about it on the forums.

As long as there's a hard wall between OPEN and the other modes already, why not apply a /pvp flag instead so at the very least everybody is visible in the same mode and making the place look busier while not letting gankers enforce their "play style".

PvP is not fun for some, so the social aspect is stolen too?

 

[Marra Morgan]

Those who aren't interested in getting ganked can just log out and hide in SOLO / PG, including murder hobos waiting on their notoriety countdown, which unbalances things like CG's and PP anyway, and makes the gankers cry about it on the forums.

Why on earth would anyone go to Solo to wait out a notoriety countdown?

Do you know how any of this works?

 

[Six6VI]

Why on earth would anyone go to Solo to wait out a notoriety countdown?

Do you know how any of this works?

It's supposed to reduce by one for every two hours logged in.

This wiki doesn't specify which mode but it would seem logical that if you're a cowardly murder hobo trying to avoid the consequences while still doing things in the game instead of just sitting in a station, PG or SOLO might be the better options, no?

The whole C&P system is annoying enough when a stray shot hits a clean NPC who is then killed by another NPC and for some magical unicorn reason you end up with the blame for the murder, and the waste of time trying to clear up the penalties.

So, I stopped bothering to engage with it some time ago.

 

[Marra Morgan]

it would seem logical that if you're a cowardly murder hobo trying to avoid the consequences while still doing things in the game instead of just sitting in a station, PG or SOLO might be the better options, no?

What consequences would those be?

 

[Shir]

I think one really useful thing frontier could do to help players with ganking frustration would be to introduce a training mission on how to escape when facing overwhelming odds. Or how to build a defensive build for non combat vessels. Maybe it would help the game more than taking parts of the gameplay away.

 

[Six6VI]

What consequences would those be?

Being found, and killed by a more skilled PvP player.

 

[MK Regular]

I would have been very worried about beavers eating meat, as they apparently are vegetarians.




I do not think the the hiring of NPC wingmen is a viable solution. As I it would be of limited use to new players. They have alot of other stuff to figure out...
But we already have all the components for a solution in the game, that FDev have yet to actually leverage on. And any player can hire them to.. even the "bad" ones (as already pointed out by Kari)



Let a systems security level actually have a meaning...
And also we can have a few extra rules (CHEAT RULE) if the aggressor is a wanted player and the target is a player, that is clean and not pledge to a powerplay power.

So in a high security systems:
* Here authority ships should arrive ALOT faster in high security systems, maybe even within seconds
* Ships sent should always have combined firepower that is twice of what you got (if in wing, it is the combined power of the wing that counts)
* The difference in strength between aggressor and target should influence how much firepower the authority ships have, so if there is a big disparity in the aggressors favour, more authority ships will should be sent.
* Once detected doing attacks on any clean ship, Authority ships would try to interdict and destroy your ship as long as you are in the system.

* CHEAT RULE: Notoriety level dictates the number of ATR that is sent extra over the normal response, starting with one at notoriety = 5, two at notoriety 6, to 5 at notoriety = 10.
* CHEAT RULE: FSD disruption field, that blocks a specific FSD from engaging, making escape a bit harder for the aggressor. as you now have to outrun the authority ships before jumping away
* CHEAT RULE: If leaving the game by any means (any form of exiting the game while still in the instance), we keep the status and put you right back among the authority ships when you log back in. And it does not matter what game mode you choose.


So the above would make create relatively safe environment in high security systems. So for those that want have a relative safe experience, this is the place to be. New players should have a much easier timer to learn stuff




This is how we make it more dangerous for playing in systems with a lower lower security rating
* Medium security - weaker response (only matching the firepower) and slower response time. The notoriety CHEAT RULE starts at 7
* Low security - weaker response (only matching 50% of the firepower) and even longer response time, as they have to "travel" from the nearest high/medium security system, so distance is a factor here. The notoriety CHEAT RULE starts at 9.
* Anarchy systems - here no authority ships will come to your rescue.



And with the above rules we would push most of the ganker playstyle out of high security systems and mostly out of medium security systems.



Now we need to encourage players to visit anarchy systems, and we do this by offer higher rewards for mission from these systems.
So we can make transport mission (cargo passenger) to Anarchy system for max rewards. doing the same mission to high security system will have the lowest rewards.
We can also accept wet-work and piracy mission here, and if the target is in a high security those will pay the most, and doing these to an anarchy system would pay the lowest.




Now there is alot of more details to consider, but I think the overall concept should be clear. And this is just some suggestion how to use the existing mechanics in the game with a few tweaks. And note, there is no absolute safety, you can still get ganked, but it now takes alot more skill in high security systems.

I agree with this idea 100%. The galaxy feels too homogeneous, and there is very little in the way of added risk/reward based on where you fly.

Also, the CHEAT RULES are absolutely brutal and I love them. It would be absolutely hilarious to watch someone Clog/menu log/whatever on authority ships and then jump into solo to find multiple wings of ATR ships with FSD jammers waiting for them

 

[Marra Morgan]

Being found, and killed by a more skilled PvP player.

So what is it about Notoriety that you think exposes them to the risk of combat against another player?

 

[Six6VI]

So what is it about Notoriety that you think exposes them to the risk of combat against another player?

If they're dumb enough to hang around the system where they earned it, the wanted tag should be a pretty good giveaway, and incentive to kill them.

We're talking about griefers, no? Types who like to murder noobs and truckers in cold blood for salt but not engage in PvP with combat ships their own size?

 

[Marra Morgan]

If they're dumb enough to hang around the system where they earned it, the wanted tag should be a pretty good giveaway, and incentive to kill them.

We're talking about griefers, no? Types who like to murder noobs and truckers in cold blood for salt but not engage in PvP with combat ships their own size?

No, Wanted tags and Notoriety are two different things.

If you switch ships, you could have 10 Notoriety points and appear Clean in the local system. There is absolutely no need to use Solo or PG to wait out Notoriety.

Get your facts straight before you go calling others out as "dumb".

 

[Six6VI]

No, Wanted tags and Notoriety are two different things.

If you switch ships, you could have 10 Notoriety points and appear Clean in the local system. There is absolutely no need to use Solo or PG to wait out Notoriety.

Get your facts straight before you go calling others out as "dumb".

I'm aware they are two different things and as long as they have a spare, or a whole fleet of not-wanted ships in reserve to support their antisocial ganking habits, great.

Did you miss the "IF" on the beginning of that sentence?

You haven't convinced me griefers are any less annoying, even if they think they're smart enough to find clever ways to circumvent a system which is kinda dumb too.

 

[Marra Morgan]

You haven't convinced me griefers are any less annoying, even if they think they're smart enough to find clever ways to circumvent a system which is kinda dumb too.

That's fine - not trying to convince you of anything, just trying to gauge your understanding of how the C&P system works, since it seems you have a lot to say about it.

 

[Six6VI]

That's fine - not trying to convince you of anything, just trying to gauge your understanding of how the C&P system works, since it seems you have a lot to say about it.

I'm more concerned with the underlying issue that the current C&P system is attempting to address, from the perspective of increasing customer retention. To keep more people in the game as a whole instead of new players quitting the already steep learning curve because they keep getting killed for no reason other than they're an easy target.

I've invested many hundreds of hours typing the same answers to the same "I didn't read what the NPC said" questions in an effort to help on-ramp new players and keep a now nine year old game alive but luckily in that game, I didn't have to contend with other players killing them at the same time.

I'd like to see this one complete it's ten year development plan, and keep going! It's a great franchise, which might have another three decades in it but with such a steep learning curve, player atrophy is high enough without them killing each other off.

I've seen PvP people buy Elite, struggle to get familiar with the controls while determined to play in OPEN, get ganked a few too many times and throw it in the too hard basket.

Not enough newbs that stick around isn't good long term.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Even established Elite traders with minimal combat skill/desire

When I were a lad, an Elite Trader was someone who could get cargo into or out of anywhere no matter who tried to stop them, not just someone who'd moved a lot of boxes from A to B and then, sometimes, for variety, moved a lot of boxes from B to A.

But ... even aside from the point that the other side could also hire its own wingmen, if you can't build a ship to survive 30 seconds of incoming fire (whether by tanking it or just not being in front of their guns), your overpowered wingmen could have station guns and you still wouldn't survive. (And if you can build a ship to survive that, you can high-wake and survive anyway, so it's not that big a help)

Similarly, what's to stop someone (in Solo, or some backwater system in Open, let's take other players out of this) hiring these ultra-cheap and overpowered NPC wingmen and going to a CZ or HazRES with them, and then letting them do most of the work while they just sit there with some fire-at-will turrets to claim the bounties?

If it costs me 14 million credits to buy a Huge Plasma Accelerator for my ship, and then I have to aim it myself and sometimes have to fire it considerably more than once before the target explodes, how much do you think a wingman with a station gun might actually cost? It's not going to be "less than a starter pulse laser".

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I'm more concerned with the underlying issue that the current C&P system is attempting to address, from the perspective of increasing customer retention. To keep more people in the game as a whole instead of new players quitting the already steep learning curve because they keep getting killed for no reason other than they're an easy target.

[...]

Not enough newbs that stick around isn't good long term.

It's certainly a defining feature of the Elite series - not just Elite: Dangerous - that the learning curve is the opposite way round to most games: you start off facing a vertical cliff and then once you get over that it's relatively flat. Elite: Dangerous is probably (nowadays!) the easiest of the four to get started with because the NPC combat is mostly optional, and if you stick to high security systems you get near-instant police help against the pirates.

I don't know how much difference the PvP makes - Frontier presumably does have the metrics - but a beginner struggling with the learning curve is quite capable of getting killed repeatedly by the NPCs. You have to get somewhat up the curve before the difference between "attacked by an NPC" and "attacked by a player" actually matters that much. And you can play Solo/PG if you want - you don't have to deal with random player hostility at all if you don't want to.

The new Squadron feature and search might make it easier for people to find help from other players in game, too. I expect there'll be a lot of squadrons to help people through all of that initial learning curve and either include dealings with other players in that, or have a ready-made PG for them to join. (Whether as dedicated "beginner squadrons" or just major groups who help beginners as part of their recruiting plan)

 

[Six6VI]

It's certainly a defining feature of the Elite series - not just Elite: Dangerous - that the learning curve is the opposite way round to most games: you start off facing a vertical cliff and then once you get over that it's relatively flat. Elite: Dangerous is probably (nowadays!) the easiest of the four to get started with because the NPC combat is mostly optional, and if you stick to high security systems you get near-instant police help against the pirates.

I don't know how much difference the PvP makes - Frontier presumably does have the metrics - but a beginner struggling with the learning curve is quite capable of getting killed repeatedly by the NPCs. You have to get somewhat up the curve before the difference between "attacked by an NPC" and "attacked by a player" actually matters that much. And you can play Solo/PG if you want - you don't have to deal with random player hostility at all if you don't want to.

The new Squadron feature and search might make it easier for people to find help from other players in game, too. I expect there'll be a lot of squadrons to help people through all of that initial learning curve and either include dealings with other players in that, or have a ready-made PG for them to join. (Whether as dedicated "beginner squadrons" or just major groups who help beginners as part of their recruiting plan)

Ah, the memories of "J" spamming on the Beeb...

Yes, the new squadron feature, and the new system chat! I can see squadrons setting up recruiting booths already, and maybe they'll have a chance to gather some newbs under their wing for basic training instead of being left out in the wild to fend for themselves.

I'd add the most defining differences between ED and the other three are this one has online modes instead of just SOLO, and we're only half way through the development phase instead of buying a completed box set with a pre-balanced training campaign and BGS.

As a work in progress, some things just aren't going to work straight out of the box, and further additions are bound to un-balance things that nobody ever complained about. In the meantime, trying not to lose beta testers while bringing in new blood is probably a good idea.

We'll see in five years I guess. It's been awesome so far.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Negative cmdr.

I dont particularly want to see hand holding being implemented into Elite.

I'd advocate the Cops being buffed by a large margin in AI logic and avalible ships/modifications.

But not hireable AI.

Git gud.