Flight assist off wrongs and rights

[Troopi]

Hi mates.

ok, about the damn flight assist off.. I've been playing for a while, and by what I test (usually with the reference help of a station), when you turn flight assist off, the main engine shuts down, only thrusters work, and the ship keeps flying in the same direction, regardless of ship's heading.
The principle is good, and I already know you won't add thruster corrections to the stupid bobbing and endless rolling of the ship. It makes it feel like a piece of metal floating in space. Ok, I get it. It's a game taste you get used to, having to constantly correct the ship's heading.
But two things don't add up to it. And I'll put them here for you to know:

1- while in flight assist off, the ship shouldn't loose speed as if the main engine was turned on. If I boost, the ship should decrease speed gradually to 0, not to the max speed of the ship (it drops to this speed fast and then stays there - at least it's what the hud shows, and it seems like it, when using a station as nav reference). The main engine is supposed to be shut down, then why does the ship's speed regulate by the max of the engine? It shouldn't.

2- when turning flight assist on, the main engine starts again and it should boost the ship progressively to the previously set throttle. It doesn't, the engine throttle goes to the relative speed of the ship ( either forward or backwards). This is simply stupid, and I think no one building spaceships would program it like so. The main engine throttle is cannon, when it's set to a speed, it pushes the specific amount of power. Since you've went to so much trouble to make the game feel like atmospheric aircrafts in space, you should know this. When an aircraft cuts the engine and starts it again, it give the power set by throttle.

Ok, it's done. I hope this report helps in making the game better.
Just so the Devs know, ships in space... flight assist off could be THE asset to make the game stand apart from others.

 

[castleberg]

I am, admittedly, an elite dangerous newbie--but I think you have some misconceptions (someone feel free to correct me). When you go to "flight assist off" it doesn't kill the main thruster. What it does is toggles the momentum dynamics:

Flight assist on:
Ship flies like you would expect on earth / in an atmosphere. I.e. There is friction. When you turn to a heading and neutral the stick, it stays at that heading.

Flight assist off:
Ship flies like you would expect in space. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you turn 90 degrees up, you have to counter that by turning down to counter the upward momentum if you want to "level out". Otherwise you'll just spin forever. The ship wobbles due to these tinny imbalances (although a little too much more my taste, wish it was steadier if I wasn't giving any input and just flying straight, but you could say this is an imbalance with the engines, or whatever explanation you want).

If you go into flight assist off and don't touch your thrusters, /and just turn your throttle to max--you accelerate. That doesn't change. Where I think your getting confused is if you do a 180. Because your ships forward momentum is going at say 200, then you do a 180 and your actually going backwards at 200 (conservation of momentum). When you thrust/throttle you don't magically start going net forward, you accelerate forward, but you have to bleed through your negative momentum first. (Accelerate from -200 to 200, not 0 to 200). So maybe this is just giving you the impression your throttle is off?. This is in contrast to FA on, where you can't really do a pinpoint 180. Instead you do a loop (the radius determined by your thrust) like you would expect a plane to do on earth. So your velocity is always "forward", and the loop gradually converts your vector around. Again. Don't think "flight assist" think "fly like a plane" "fly like a space ship". You have to treat flight assist off like your playing those old moon landed games, or better yet--docking the apollo capsule to the lander.

I think if you revisit the dynamics with that in mind you will see they make sense?

 

[Troopi]

Because your ships forward momentum is going at say 200, then you do a 180 and your actually going backwards at 200 (conservation of momentum). When you thrust/throttle you don't magically start going net forward, you accelerate forward, but you have to bleed through your negative momentum first.

Castleberg, if that was the devs intention... well I must say it's just stupid. Who the hell would build spaceships with such profile? An FA-off button to play moonlanding?
Also, the bleeding effect does not happen. If I boost and put my throttle to 0 and turn 180 with FA-off, when I return to FA-On, the throttle will be with negative speed and bleed until reaching the max backward throttle of the ship. Then it stays there. It doesn't return to 0.

 

[castleberg]

I'm in game, so I'll test what your saying so I can give a better response, but maybe more elegant answer would have been:

Flight assist on: vectors / velocities are relative to your ship. running at full thrust, and pulling a full forced turn causes you to always travel the direction your ship is facing (forward), obviously this vector changes are your ship turns (which is what I ment when I said "FA on = flies like a plane".

Flight assist off: vectors / velocities are absolute (as they would be in real life). your ship can rotate freely, while your momentum is conserved. So if you spin 180 degrees, you will now be going backwards, until you correct for that force/momentum. This is how it would work in real life.

You seem to be upset about FA off, but that is simply how things would work in reality. FA on is training wheels to make it more managable and "simple". If you want to complaint about something being dumb or unrealistic, it should really be FA on, I would think. But I find both enjoyable, and toggle momentarily as needed.

I find the implimentation rather intuitive and far from "stupid". You ask "who the hell would build spaceships with such profile? An FA-off button to play moonlanding?". But again, FA off is how the world actually works. I think your finding it confusing / "stupid" because your thinking of your speed and vectors relative to your ships direction, and not your absolute momentum/movement. make your ship motionless in space, turn FA off, then tap your thrusters around to get the feeling. It's quite logical actually.

I'll test what you were saying regarding the throttle behavior. I suspect what your saying isn't correct at all (if I am interpreting you correctly). based on how I read your comments, the behavior you see is:

Forward speed = boost (say +200)
FA off
Turn 180 degrees so your facing the way you came (you can see your engine trail)
Speed reads -200
FA on
Throttle shows negative speed
Throttle increases in negative direction to "Max backward throttle of the ship" (say -150?)
speed reads -150
Throttle stays in this position, causing you to continue backward indefinitely at your max reverse speed.

I'll test that, but I guarentee that isn't the way it works. The only thing I can think of is that your:

1) accidentally hitting the "reverse throttle toggle" button. I personally never reverse my throttle, but just use the reverse thrust button (they have the same force)
or
2) you have some accidental key binding in your hotas software or Elite that is causing said button to enable. Go into settings, controls, and under the "flight throttle" and make sure "throttle axis range" is set to "forward only" and "forward only throttle reverse" is set to "button mode: HOLD" (if you want to use toggle, fine--but be very conscious of what you choose, so you don't toggle on reverse thrust. it is used sparingly, I personally recommend just using your "reverse thrust" instead of reversing your "throttle", if that makes sense. But to each their own, just look at your settings and know how your ship will react accordingly.



After testing what you stated above:

100% not the case. It has to be your settings. I'm sure it has to do with your throttle settings. what my ship does:

Forward at +200
FA off
180 turn (with counter turn to face the way I came and not continue to spin)
(speed reads -200) (because my momentum has be going backwards)
FA on (or left off it doesn't matter)
throttle to 100
My speed indicator goes (simplified obviously):
-200
-150
-100
-50
0
50
100
150
200

I'm positive that either 1) you have your settings messed up in your controls as mentioned above or 2) your just not being patient enough to let your negative speed bleed off and convert to a positive speed. But I'm 99% sure you just have your controls wonky. Change it as I mentioned and it will act appropriate.


Now if you just don't like flight assist off because you don't like how "uncontrollable" it feels, I can't help you there. That is realistic. fly with FA on if you don't like having to correct for every momentum vector. . . (I bet when you fix your controls you'll be feeling better though)

 

[Manticore]

This:

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Newton's First Law. Simple physics. In space, unless interacting with a source of gravity or psychical interaction with another object that has a velocity (zero to infinity if you are into E.E. 'Doc' Smith's Lensman series of books), the ship will continue to travel at the same velocity forever (well, at least until the universe dies as per our current model).

 

[Ca$hback]

This very thing the OP is talking about is why I developed the habit of pressing "X" (kill all thrust) every time when I toggle the FA back on. Doesn't bother me though.

 

[Troopi]

Mates, you're beating around the bush. I get that you love the game, I also do. But you must stop being so rock solid about the implemented mechanics. I used to play Freelancer a lot, and there, the "engine shutdown" mode was much more intuitive and worked with newtonian physics. You could savor the feeling of drifting through a field of debris while using only your thrusters and an eventual boost.
But that's not a matter for this post. This post is about facts of the game, so here it is the correct procedure I tested:
Using an asp-x with A specs - no engineer tweaks
1- put my throttle to full speed forward (stops at 276)
2- boost (goes to 372)
3- set throttle to 0 (speed starts dropping - but as i boosted, it keeps the same dropping speed)
3- flight assist off and yaw 180 degress.
4- flight assist on
5- speed indicator shows negative speed quickly decreasing to -166 (it stops there, as if the main engine was working)

Of course, if I put my throttle to max forward, it will bleed and reach the +276 again.
But that's NOT the point. The throttle was set to 0. It should stay there,or in this case, after i turn flight assist on, bleed from negative speed back to 0.
THAT is the whole issue of this post.

Fly well, fly fast.

 

[castleberg]

Troopi:

Nice reply. And for the record, I don't think anyone is putting their head in the sand / speaking from blind fanboyism. I know for myself, I just am having a hard time grasping the problem, but to that end, let me confirm something...

By, I'm using almost the exact same ship in my test...

You said:
1- put my throttle to full speed forward (stops at 276)
2- boost (goes to 372)
3- set throttle to 0 (speed starts dropping - but as i boosted, it keeps the same dropping speed)

***********************
Not sure what this means. "Keeps the same dropping speed" you mean it drops at the same rate, or you maintain the same speed? The behavior I would expect is that when you boost your speed goes to 372, then when you set throttle to 0 (after boost, with no subsequent boosts), your speed slowly decreases to your max throttle speed (even when set to 0), ie 276, where it stays...(if in FA off, while FA on would have your speed decrease to 0)
**************************

3- flight assist off and yaw 180 degress.
4- flight assist on
5- speed indicator shows negative speed quickly decreasing to -166 (it stops there, as if the main engine was working)

This last part (5) makes no sense to me, and is not what I experience at all (and is what led me to question your key bindings / settings.

Assume the following:
1) throttle full, speed +276
2) boost, speed +372
3) FA off and yaw/pitch 180

Now...a few scenarios to show how my elite dangerous settings work (and why I feel the system is fine.) if you experience something different, please say so (I want to get to the bottom of this!)

To summarize above, we are now going backward, at -372, with engines still at 100%, FA is off, and we are facing opposite our velocity vector.

scenario 1:
4) flight assist on
5) throttle left alone (at 100%)

Effect:
Speed slowly converts, in linear fashion, from -372, to +276 in the opposite direction I am now facing.

Is there any question is is logical and appropriate? I don't know where your step 5 is coming from, as you seem to be describing the same maneuver. But indicate that your speed goes to -166 and stays there.

Please do me the courtesy of actually checking your settings I referenced above. If this is the behavior you see, you MUST not have your throttle set to "forward only thrust". You are setting reverse throttle in your maneuver somehow, be it through your throttle range not being set to "forward only" or accidentally toggling the reverse throttle switch. Please don't ignore this step, as everything your saying indicates this is your problem.

Scenario 2:
4) throttle decreased to 0
5) flight assist on (note the throttle was set BEFORE turning on flight assist)

Effect:
Speed slowly bleeds from -372 to 0.

Is there any question this is not logical and appropriate? Is this not what you see?

Scenario 3:
4) throttle decreased to 0
5) flight assist REMAINS OFF

Effect:
I continue to drift backwards indefinitely. Speed slowly goes from -372 to -276 where it stays.

Is there any question this is not logical and appropriate? In this case, you could argue it breaks physics. In reality, I would continue backward at not -276, but at -372. Why am I slowing if I didn't add counter thrust??? Well, because otherwise it would be an exploit where you could effectively have infinite boost by boosting, and just drifting at boost speed indefinitely by throwing on flight assist. And even then, you would have a similar question as to why if your in FA off, drifting at boost speed (+372) and boost again, why don't you go even faster??! Because the game doesn't want people to exploit the mechanics to manipulate speeds beyond what the game intends. While not strictly realistic in this sense, it is fully what I expect in a game. And see no viable alternative.

Scenario 4:
4) throttle set to 100%
5) FA left OFF

Effect:
Identical to scenario 1, except I have to manage my movement much more carefully.

Is there any question this is logical and appropriate?


Let me know. Again, not speaking from fanboyism, it just all seems very logical and appropriate. Again--I want to get to the bottom of it so let me know.

A final reminder. Please check your control settings. The only explanation in can come up with regarding the strange behavior your reporting is 1) your control settings altered per above or 2) your executing the maneuver in some strange way that is causing you to do something odd..with #1 being fat and away the most likely given you otherwise seem a very thoughtful and rational individual

Just do me the favor of setting your thrust to "forward only" and retest.

If we were experiencing the same thing, and just disagreed on liking it I would just leave well enough alone. But the behavior your describing would bother me too, so I want to get to the bottom of it on your behalf!

Im curious, so keep us posted .


Cheers mate

 

[Troopi]

Castleberg, what I posted is perfectly explicit:

1- put my throttle to full speed forward (stops at 276)
2- boost (goes to 372)
3- set throttle to 0 (speed starts dropping, but I will press FA-off right away)
3- flight assist off and yaw 180 degress.
4- flight assist on
5- speed indicator shows negative speed quickly decreasing to -166 (it stops there, as if the main engine was working and throttle set to full backwards)

You can also try the variant:

1- put my throttle to full speed forward (stops at 276)
2- boost (goes to 372)
3- set throttle to 0 (speed starts dropping, but I will press FA-off right away)
3- flight assist off
4- flight assist on
5- speed indicator shows throttle set to full forward instead of previously set 0.

Again I will point out that the main issue of the post is about throttle. When I set it to 0, and press FA-OFF, when I return to FA-ON, the throttle will not return to 0, it will inherit the ship's speed and direction.
I checked my keys and they are all ok.
My way of overriding this situation was with a key binding trick, since I play with keyboard and mouse, these are my assigned left hand keys
w- thruster up
s- thruster down
a- thruster left
d- thruster right
q- roll left
e- roll right
shift- set throttle to 0
shift+w- thrusters forward
shift+s - thrusters backwards

By setting shift-key to throttle 0, I ensure that the engine always returns to 0 when I'm using FA-off and thrusters in combat.

 

[castleberg]

Troopi,

Ok, thanks--that actually clarifies things a bit. So your issue isnt with how the throttle / thrust physics work. Your issue is that your throttle is "inheriting" your FA OFF speed and passing it along to your ship when you turn FA ON?

So if I understand, if you did this:

Forward speed 100
Throttle 0 / FA OFF

You would drift forward as expected at 100.

Pitch 180

You would drift backward as expected at 100 (forward speed -100)

thrust forward (not throttle) to speed of -50

You would continue drifting backward as expected at speed of -50

FA ON

You would have no change in velocity. The -50 speed would be inherited by your ships computer and even with your throttle set to "0", you would continue back indefinitely at -50.


If this is indeed the case, and in understand your "throttle inheritance" problem correctly, can you confirm what the throttle indicator looks like? Not your speed indicator / bars, but the throttle/thrust blue indicator.

 

[Troopi]

You would have no change in velocity. The -50 speed would be inherited by your ships computer and even with your throttle set to "0", you would continue back indefinitely at -50.


If this is indeed the case, and in understand your "throttle inheritance" problem correctly, can you confirm what the throttle indicator looks like? Not your speed indicator / bars, but the throttle/thrust blue indicator.

You hit the spot, Castleberg. The problem is exactly that. I check the throttle bar that moves when you adjust throttle.
At the end of the manouver, when I turn FA-on, the throttle bar will be at full reverse- in the bottom.
When throttle is set to 0, the bar will be at the top of the throttle scale.
I even checked thursting forward... the speed will reduce and eventually go forward,but if I release the thruster, it will return backwards, because the throttle is set to full reverse.

 

[castleberg]

Gotcha. Well, I will give you some reassurance:

This is completely different to how mine responds. For me, it functions exactly as you would expect / I described.

So there is light at the end of the tunnel, what your experiencing is fixable, and not a design choice by frontier.

Can you confirm you are set to Forward only thrust?

As a trouble shooting step, have you disconnected your hotas and did the same steps with keyboard commands?

 

[Arnoldo]

'....if you are into E.E. 'Doc' Smith's Lensman series of books

Wow, +1 for a blast from the past... Lensman, Skylark etc, took me back to my yoof"!!!

 

[Troopi]

I use the standard set to throttle- full spectrum - forward and reverse.
Also, I use no keyboard hotkeys or macros. All the key binds are made in the controls menu.
I'll put the throttle to forward only and report back about any changes.

 

[castleberg]

Sounds good. I bet it fixes your issue.

Fingers crossed

 

[Troopi]

Castleberg, it didn't fix the issue.
The backwards throttle returns to 0, ok. That's the effect of setting it to forward only, but a simple test can check that the problem persists:
1- set throttle to full ahead.
2- boost.
3- set throttle to 0.
4- press FA-Off.
5- release FA-On
6- the throttle bar is not in 0, but at full speed ahead. The ship will continue to fly at maximum speed (still bleeding from the boost). It should start bleeding to 0 as soon as I turn FA-on.

 

[castleberg]

I'll have to test this when I return home. But im not sure I follow.

What is your final actual velocity / vector? And throttle output?

 

[Troopi]

My final velocity will be around 350 bleeding to 276(max speed). The vector is forward since in this test I didn't change direction.
The point is, if I put my throttle to 0, and I press FA-off, when I return to FA-on, the throttle bar should keep in 0, and not adjust to the ship's speed. And I should be reducing my speed to 0, whatever the vector.

 

[castleberg]

Hmmm.

I will have to test this when I get home.
I agree, that would be the most logical behavior (otherwise the Hotas throttle is "out of sync")

So is it safe to assume if you nudge the throttle slightly and then put it back to zero, the ship senses it's proper position and puts the throttle back to 0? Ie the expected behavior?

 

[Troopi]

After I turn FA-on, any new adjustment to Throttle works as expected. That's why I assigned the Shift key to set throttle to 0. So that I can constantly override this fault when using thrusters and FA-off in a dogfight.