Forum morality question: how might Powerplay fit in with harsher punishments for player-killers?

[Truesilver]

There is much ongoing discussion of player-killers, pirates, combat loggers, griefers, crime & punishment and ‘karma’. The implicit context concerns aggression directed at players who have ‘clean’ status (at least, in the local system in question) at the time of their death.

The discussion generally centres around how to exact greater punishment upon said player-killers, whilst preserving some opportunity for the components of PvP deemed morally legitimate - the latter (perhaps) including what might be termed ‘honourable piracy’ and also ‘duelling with mutual prior consent’.

I would like to ask any and all forum users for your opinion on two things:

1. Do you consider it acceptable, in Open mode, for Cmds who have pledged to a Power to destroy Cmdrs who have pledged to another Power? [Assuming they are not both of the same major faction, i.e. not both Federal or Imperial.]

2. To the extent (if at all) that you consider Powerplay PvP executions to be acceptable, how (if at all) might those particular killings-of-the-clean be accommodated within any new, reformed, crime and punishment system? [At present such killings either incur no bounty or a ‘standard’ murder bounty, depending upon the Powerplay status of the location.]

 

[GluttonyFang]

1. Depends on context, if one player is a threat to another (conflict of interest on individual level or power level) or an obstacle, then sure, go crazy.

2. I view signing up for Power Play as inviting in meaningful direct player conflict (Open mode). So blowing up clean ship should not be sanctioned as harshly as blowing up ships for no reason. Again, ultimately up to context ^

 

[CMDR Aengus]

Kill em all. Let DBOBE sort em out.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Tecnicaly you're not killing him... just blowing his ship... so no problem there

 

[Privata]

Joining the power is the same as picking a side in a CZ , anything goes

 

[Bacalao]

1. Yes, that's kind of the point of power play, draw a line in the sand and choose a side, that doesn't mean it should be without in game consequence though, you are murdering, and not just anyone, you're killing someone pledged to a very important person.
2. We need a more fleshed out crime system, a binary system like the one we have can't support a distinction about how you got a bounty.
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For example, if there were more of a sliding scale for criminality then doing a bit of undermining might get you wanted in a local cluster of systems, more determined undermining might spread that to the wider major faction. Bounty hunters would respond not only to the presence of any bounty, but to the magnitude and distance from the origination of it. That way an imp player undermining feds can go about his business deep in imperial space, while federation space would be very dangerous to him.

 

[ForeverN00b]

Joining the power is the same as picking a side in a CZ , anything goes

This.

Even in Mobius, PvP is allowed in CZs between players of opposite, pledged sides. PP should be no different (AFAIK on Mobius PP isn't a reason to PvP though).

Edit: In Open, I see no reason that a PP allegiance should be any different than, say, a PvP flag in WoW (assuming you don't want to fight someone in your own power).

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

Well obviously my personal opinion is that all enemy powerplay commanders are fair game regardless of ship and rank. It is purely an individual choice to let someone go if you find killing them to be unsporting; when they pledged to a power they ought to have known that it would attract this sort of attention (as they should have known was a risk that playing in open would entail). However I do not believe that good etiquette demands any such consideration.

With regards to any reforms to the crime and punishment system (which I think are desperately needed) I think that they should make some exceptions for powerplay-motivated killings, though I don't exactly know how this should be done. If you think about a war, enemy soldiers aren't typically regarded as criminals unless they commit war crimes. Is powerplay exactly war? Not exactly, but some compromises need to be made in order to facilitate good gameplay. When a system is powerplay-contested, it should be considered to be in a state of war. All enemy commanders should be agressively hunted by powerplay and naval forces of the relevant factions, BUT their actions against other powerplay commanders and NPCs should not be considered crimes and should not incur bounties (like how it works in your power's systems, but would now also apply to enemy systems). That's my opinion.

 

[obliterator]

I bet that powerplay would be a lot more popular if player killers were punished more harshly. Attacking enemy powerplay commander would be unsanctioned, and eventually choosing a faction could be the way to tell people that you're willing to fight.

In my opinion, powerplay should reward the destruction of enemy commanders more, while the bounty system should be harder on mindless player killers. The bounty for killing a player should be proportional to the rebuy cost of the victim. It should be faction wide, and turn into a fine when it gets claimed.

 

[Truesilver]

I bet that powerplay would be a lot more popular if player killers were punished more harshly. Attacking enemy powerplay commander would be unsanctioned, and eventually choosing a faction could be the way to tell people that you're willing to fight.

Ah ... yes, this is quite an interesting point, thank you.

If FDev ever start hammering hard the truly random act of player killing, it's a pretty safe bet that most random player killers would join a PP faction and then carry on as before but with slightly narrower focus.

Yet this in turn would (one hopes) be balanced by others joining the other side ... yes, it could be a thing.

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EDIT: Reflecting on this, given the power of RNGineered weapons and Sothis creds, perhaps FDev might need to buff the PP weapons / salary a bit as incentive, but that could be done.

 

[nosleepdemon]

If they're marked as an 'enemy', they get to die

 

[Darth Ender]

In open nobody is safe. I see nothing wrong with killing anyone for any reason you want. It should be treated no harsher than how npcs are treated. If you want to up the anty on npc murder then fine, up it on player murder. Players should not be given a handicap.

The difference that FD should make is in system security and response. Some systems would be easier to get away with the crime and others not so much and this would be dependent on many factors ...not just government type (or lack of it).

Powerplay would specifically be left out because killing NPC's for powerplay is left out of the normal rules. If you're rooting for the other team you're fair game (within the rules of powerplay in how it reflects NPC behavior...which should reflect lore descriptions).

 

[eumaies]

There is much ongoing discussion of player-killers, pirates, combat loggers, griefers, crime & punishment and ‘karma’. The implicit context concerns aggression directed at players who have ‘clean’ status (at least, in the local system in question) at the time of their death.

The discussion generally centres around how to exact greater punishment upon said player-killers, whilst preserving some opportunity for the components of PvP deemed morally legitimate - the latter (perhaps) including what might be termed ‘honourable piracy’ and also ‘duelling with mutual prior consent’.

I would like to ask any and all forum users for your opinion on two things:

1. Do you consider it acceptable, in Open mode, for Cmds who have pledged to a Power to destroy Cmdrs who have pledged to another Power? [Assuming they are not both of the same major faction, i.e. not both Federal or Imperial.]

2. To the extent (if at all) that you consider Powerplay PvP executions to be acceptable, how (if at all) might those particular killings-of-the-clean be accommodated within any new, reformed, crime and punishment system? [At present such killings either incur no bounty or a ‘standard’ murder bounty, depending upon the Powerplay status of the location.]

I can't stand this mindset. And I've never killed anyone and have occasionally been killed for no reason. Elite Dangerous would be 10x as fun if I could play it such that there was always a chance of being killed AND my killers were given some reason to actually kill me (and vice versa).

To your point #1 here, I wish the game would simply openly condone and reward players for killing Cmdrs from other powers. To keep it from ruining the game for folks who don't like that, you could limit it to specific warring factions or specific "conflict" systems.

This would give those of us who like DANGER something to do in the game, and maybe reduce the amount of killing that the OP finds ruins his experience of the game.

 

[Truesilver]

I can't stand this mindset. And I've never killed anyone ... <snip> ... and maybe reduce the amount of killing that the OP finds ruins his experience of the game.

Heh, I think you may have misunderstood where I'm coming from on this one. Check my sig and re-read my opening post, Cmdr

Btw I also yesterday replied to a question of yours concerning PvP in another thread. Let me know if you'd like any more info about particular PvP player groups.

 

[Weps]

Sorry to join the discussion in such a manner, as I don't PP, but wasn't there a mechanic by which a player could kill any other ship (PC or NPC) belonging to another PP faction, while in the territory of his own faction, and not receive any kind of penalty? I remember reading about something like this.

Basically if you PP and go on someone else's turf you risk being killed and have no right to complain.

 

[SkipRat]

More to the point, how will Powerplay fit in with the rest of the game...

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Sorry to join the discussion in such a manner, as I don't PP, but wasn't there a mechanic by which a player could kill any other ship (PC or NPC) belonging to another PP faction, while in the territory of his own faction, and not receive any kind of penalty? I remember reading about something like this.

Basically if you PP and go on someone else's turf you risk being killed and have no right to complain.

That is correct.

 

[Helfar]

Anything that helps avoid 'just killing because they are a player' would be beneficial, but in all honesty the griefers are always going to grief. If you were killed as you were a supporter of "X", it would make the whole thing slightly more paletable than just killing them because they are a player.

What I think would be better is if the REAL pirates, as in those that want to get cargo off you and then let you go, joined forces to punish those that just want to kill another player. Was nice in the old days, just after beta, when Pirates stopped you, demanded cargo and then let you go, assuming you gave them some cargo. These days I understand why combat loggers do so, they do it as the person attacking them JUST wants to kill them, so whats the point in trying to fight if you are outclassed and have no chance, and these days it is now actually almost impossible to escape if/when you get interdicted, especially as interdictions from players quite often ends in failure, even if you try and submit.

 

[Weps]

That is correct.

Well in that case I personally would have no problem with a harsher crime penalty while this PP mechanic stays the way it is.

In other words, in your own turf you can do anything against other PP commanders (they shouldn't be there). In someone else's turf, expect the locals to attack you since they don't fear the punishment. They're defending their turf after all. Two PP ships on neutral ground are subject to the same mechanics as if they weren't in PP.

Going in another power's territory is considered being on enemy territory in a war. Attacking ships there carries an increased risk (one coming from a bounty on you, and another one from the fact that you can be counterattacked with impunity), which is more reason for you not to be in that area, but to stick to your own turf. That's what I feel PP should be about anyway.

 

[Truesilver]

Sorry to join the discussion in such a manner, as I don't PP, but wasn't there a mechanic by which a player could kill any other ship (PC or NPC) belonging to another PP faction, while in the territory of his own faction, and not receive any kind of penalty?

Yes, if you are pledged to the Power that controls or exploits the system in question, you will not incur a bounty for firing on a pledger who is marked as hostile.

So, for example, at Cleve Hub, Eravate, a Hudson pledger can destroy an ALD pledger without incurring a station response.

My own concern is really over action in enemy or neutral territory, i.e. whether those who advocate much harsher penalties for player-on-player attacks would treat Powerplay aggression as akin to random aggression. Although, judging by the response so far, it seems perhaps not.

 

[goemon]

1. i guess one reason why PP is in the game is to deliver "context" for PvP-combat, so yes.

2. as it is now, killing a player is the same crime (if it is one) as killing a npc. i personally would prefer it staying that way. many suggestions around "crime punishment" don't take into account, that the same punishment would effect players committing "PvE-crimes" - major faction bounties (for players) aren't in the game anymore for powerplay; powerplay-npc being wanted are in the game, so powerplay doesn't "ruin" the BGS etc.

i'm not sure how to come around all this, without treating crimes against players differently to crimes against npc.