Frontier: Please work on the game AI

[FuzzySpider]

Please, fellow community members, I beg you, don't fight or troll in this thread. Also please don't turn this thread into a discussion about particular game developers - there is already a thread for that.

Frontier - it has come to my attention that you might have put the development of Elite: Dangerous AI on the back burner. This is a heartfelt attempt by a loyal (but now wavering) fan to convince you to bring it right back up to first priority.

I love the whole idea behind Elite, I loved it back in 1988 when I first played it on the spectrum, I loved it again in the early nighties with Elite 2. What appealed to me is what appealed to almost everyone else who loved it - the feeling that we could play a game as a captain of our own spaceship, exploring deep space and making our fortunes were we may. This new world, a whole new universe, so removed from the one I normally inhabited. The first Elite in particular was valuable to me in escaping from certain hells that existed in my childhood, perhaps that's why I'm so fond of the entire concept.

What made it so absolutely wonderful was that it was an escape. An escape in a way no other game could match at the time. We didn't have "lives", there was no score counter, there wasn't a flashy blurb or some particular goal. It wasn't a "game", it was another place entirely. Back then it worked great. Most games were of the Monty on the Run variety and, while good, were simple platformers and puzzlers. They certainly never tried to take you to another universe. But now? There are so many games doing this in so many genres it's impossible to name them all. Everything from Skyrim to GTA 5 to Assassins Creed has, to some extend, the forumla that you started.

Those are good games, with worlds that are believable within their own logical/mechanical structures. If I run into a dragon in Skyrim, it flies and breathes fire to try and kill me. If I ram a police car in GTA 5 they're going to chase after me. If I poison someone in AC they're going to die as I walk nonchalantly away and hide.

How does your game compare? As of right now, if I get interdicted by a powerful pirate anaconda, which has for some reason been allowed to roam in a "safe" system, a pitiful little viper or two *might* just show up after a few minutes. Or it might not. If the same thing happens in the frontier systems, where laws are not respected and pirates rule the day...? Well the same. If I'm flying my own combat fitted FDL in a system I might get attacked by an Asp with no shields, presumably the pilot has decided to give up on life?

Where are the police patrols? Where are the military vanguards? Where are the hospital ships during disease outbreaks? Where are the military ships guarding supply ships during civil wars? Where are the bounty hunters coming looking for me after I've smuggled thousands of slaves right under the Federations nose? Why, being an Earl in the Empire, am I not actually escorted to the station by a pair of Vipers forming up at my wing?

For that matter where are the NPC mercenaries we can hire?

Right now the universe is very stale. We've got this galnet thing telling us about all the stuff that's happening in the universe, but when we hit launch we don't see any of it. It's like watching Star Wars only with just the green screens, and being told what's going on in the background. And we've also got powerplay, a weekly long boardgame by committee which fits Elite like a glove, on a foot.

But nothing ever happens. And certainly nothing happens in front of us that looks like it logically should be happening.

You need content. We all know that. But you also need emergent dynamic interaction - LIFE! - and that means AI. That is the most pressing need of all for Elite right now.

 

[Privata]

The AI in its current form is way too easy.
I love the game , but its getting boring because if I want to kill someone I can with ease... The AI upgrade was actualy the thing I was looking forward to the most this year... please FD , I beg you let us have at least some AI fixes

 

[Monk]

Seeing that SJA has been moved to another dev team...it is entirely possible that she would be working on Friendly AI (mercs, wingmen, crew members), as opposed to Combat AI.

I would have liked to see her finish and implement her work, but it will get there, if by some other hand.

I'm really curious to know what SJA can't say about her move....argh...Gamescon can't get here soon enough!

 

[h347h]

It seems like a hard balance. Sure there are plenty of people who are quite good at playing the game. But there are several who are not good at it at all. More things like SSS and HICZ are in need. However the general game outside of that sits about right in my opinion. If not you are going to make the learning curve a bit too steep for new players. An option to turn on slightly harder AI/geared ships would be nice for when you 'start' an instance at a RES, HICZ, or SSS though. For me the answer is a mixed bag. You need easy stuff so people who are not quite as good as others can enjoy the game and harder niche stuff that the more combat enthusiast focused players can sink their teeth into. One good thing coming in the future is the Power Plant changes. This will make NPCs last a bit longer and imho they should buff up hull enforcement kits so as they are more important to sub system protection of a specified system when installed or something.

 

[ZeeWolf]

Edit: deleted

 

[FuzzySpider]

It seems like a hard balance. Sure there are plenty of people who are quite good at playing the game. But there are several who are not good at it at all. More things like SSS and HICZ are in need. However the general game outside of that sits about right in my opinion. If not you are going to make the learning curve a bit too steep for new players. An option to turn on slightly harder AI/geared ships would be nice for when you 'start' an instance at a RES, HICZ, or SSS though. For me the answer is a mixed bag. You need easy stuff so people who are not quite as good as others can enjoy the game and harder niche stuff that the more combat enthusiast focused players can sink their teeth into. One good thing coming in the future is the Power Plant changes. This will make NPCs last a bit longer and imho they should buff up hull enforcement kits so as they are more important to sub system protection of a specified system when installed or something.

This is why AI work is so urgently needed.

"Safe" systems in the core worlds and high tech systems need robust and fast responses from local security to help pilots who aren't good at the game. Not just one or two vipers but a nest of vultures or maybe even security fitted pythons. Less skilled players could stick to those systems and enjoy the game.

"Dangerous" systems need less security, but cunning pirate vessels who will appear and try to take out your drives before throttling down and threatening to destroy you unless you capitulate.

Pirate players might see the reverse. Fellow pirates might leave them alone, but when they enter high security systems they might get interdicted and scanned regularly due to their recent history, if they've been smuggling/pirating. They might find moving through anarchy systems easier than high security systems.

Such measures would enable the skilled adrenaline junkies to find their challenges in combat, it would allow players who don't want that sort of intensity in combat to avoid it safely, and it would also make the whole universe a whole lot more believable and immersive.

You really think you understand this situation based on knowing nothing and can dictate what a professional development studio of 21 years should be doing?

No. Based on seeing a great deal of what was in the DDF being quietly discarded for unasked for and unwanted features like powerplay and SCBs.

The direction the game development has taken has veered wildly away from where it seemed to be going. It's morphed from being a space simulator with optional multiplayer into being a pretty standard MMO using space ship flight as a model for our avatars.

I do understand that, at best, shelving 2 months worth of AI work on a game which needs AI more than anything isn't wise. They're professional developers. Not necessarily players. It could be that they're losing focus on what's necessary while chasing little pet projects (powerplay for example).

 

[Parmo]

snip....

Heartfelt post.
Your wish list is mine also.
I've dreamt of dropping out of SC near a station only to find a bloody great battlecruiser nearby with a squadron of its fighters doing a CAP around it.
Even it's just to show the flag, be it Imperial, Alliance, Fed or some other power. It may be even related to PP events.
And if we get too nosy we get a stern warning!
Yes, give us incidents, random or otherwise, so we can tell a yarn about it on the forums etc!

 

[HectorW]

This is why AI work is so urgently needed.

"Safe" systems in the core worlds and high tech systems need robust and fast responses from local security to help pilots who aren't good at the game. Not just one or two vipers but a nest of vultures or maybe even security fitted pythons. Less skilled players could stick to those systems and enjoy the game.

"Dangerous" systems need less security, but cunning pirate vessels who will appear and try to take out your drives before throttling down and threatening to destroy you unless you capitulate.

Pirate players might see the reverse. Fellow pirates might leave them alone, but when they enter high security systems they might get interdicted and scanned regularly due to their recent history, if they've been smuggling/pirating. They might find moving through anarchy systems easier than high security systems.

Such measures would enable the skilled adrenaline junkies to find their challenges in combat, it would allow players who don't want that sort of intensity in combat to avoid it safely, and it would also make the whole universe a whole lot more believable and immersive.

yes, this
+ rep

Current random spawning is incredibly bad, game destroying for many players. Instant interdictions by invisible just spawned ships near capital base of PP faction - simply stupid.

Make secure and less secure systems with different levels of spawning NPCs consistent with lore, PP etc. safe in core system, dangerous on the borders and anarchy systems.

 

[Gedemon]

to OP, I think you're mixing "combat AI" with a lot of things that I would define as parts of the "background sim".

Combat AI is not bad, could be better on 1 vs 1, but it can give a good fight to most humans.

BGS on the other hand need a lot of works, like your example with system security (there are differences in pirates/police ratio there btw, but maybe not visible enough)

 

[Privata]

to OP, I think you're mixing "combat AI" with a lot of things that I would define as parts of the "background sim".

Combat AI is not bad, could be better on 1 vs 1, but it can give a good fight to most humans.

BGS on the other hand need a lot of works, like your example with system security (there are differences in pirates/police ratio there btw, but maybe not visible enough)

Combat AI is braindead. the combat AI update was the thing I was looking forward to the most , more so than planet landing

 

[Khelder]

Thank you FuzzySpider for your post. I was thinking of writing something similar myself.

I am actually a newbie to the ED experience - finally getting into a position where I could spend some time playing. I first played the original Elite on my BBC Micro when I was a kid. I was probably a little bit young to grasp all of the aspects of the game, but I loved it. Finally running into a pack of Thargoids (and swiftly being destroyed) was an exciting moment that sticks in my memory. I barely realised there was an Elite II and III. But when I heard about the development of Elite Dangerous, I was thrilled.

Having finally played it for a couple of weeks, I absolutely love it. Do you have those favourite movies or games that you think, "I wonder how awesome this would be with today's technology"? [Ok. It doesn't always work out. *cough* Star Wars *cough* ] ED has been a wonderful answer to this. The gameplay, the visuals, to me are amazing.

Now, being new, I'm not completely sick of the grind yet. And I've been looking at various features that people have been talking about (and many have been complaining about). Power Play probably being the major one of these. I, personally, like the idea. But would love to have the PP/non-PP interactions work more closely together.

I think I'm digressing a bit here. Point is, I'm picking up a lot of comments about things like Power Play (good and bad). Hearing about surface landings (which could potentially be really cool). But I'm also hearing about people wanting to be able to walk around their ships, board other vessels, and generally merge into a FPS as well as the space exploration sim that it is.

I would rather not see ED become a combination of so many different things that aren't done well. I don't believe you need to be able to walk around your ship to allow your imagination to immerse yourself into this world. What I would love to see is the basics done really, really, well.

As mentioned, interactions with authority vessels don't seem to be right. One would expect fights (piracy, etc) to be snuffed out almost immediately in high-security systems - particularly those ones close to PP HQs. Why am I scanned regularly by authorities who consider me to be friendly (or, perhaps, not scanned more often by those that don't)? Why is it that escaping a military interdiction (seriously, who stops for these?!) does not seem to raise any alarm bells in the system?

Why do I get flooded with NPCs saying they've finally found me, then try to dissuade me from my mission by bribing me with a fraction of the money I would have received by simply just docking and completing the mission I already have?

With the PP thing, I tend to play the role of a character who is independent but would see the value in keep most of the powers on-side to a certain extent. Has no intention of pledging allegiance to anyone in particular. But, from time to time, might like to help out one side more than another. I'd love for the two worlds to merge.

Anyway, this comment is already far too long. I agree with OP. Work on the background AI. Fancy stuff like PP, surface landings, even walking around ships if you absolutely have to do that, will mean little if there is no believable universe to interact with.

 

[h347h]

Combat AI is braindead. the combat AI update was the thing I was looking forward to the most , more so than planet landing

At least they are changing the power plant mechanics. That will give NPCs a bit of a stiffer upper lip, but that along with stiffer AI would be fun indeed. Though a bit too much for new players that can hardly make it out of the mail slot. I was in LHS 3447 the other day and I did a few face palms while landing.

 

[jadefriendly]

You need content. We all know that. But you also need emergent dynamic interaction - LIFE! - and that means AI. That is the most pressing need of all for Elite right now.

Nail -> Head

 

[gumbie]

But you also need emergent dynamic interaction - LIFE! - and that means AI.

If you want living emergent interaction you could just try clicking on OPEN when you start the game.

 

[sqzbox1]

When it comes right down to it, FD is just a software development company. I have some experience in that world (managed a team of 12 in commercial s/w development for a number of years) and it is just a reality that we have to change things around from time to time. Reasons can include: development work gets completed and people need new assignments, people need to refresh from time to time so need new challenges, people need to progress so need to learn and grow which means they also need new work to practice on, commercial (i.e. financial) realities may change priorities, people come and go for their own reasons, teams grow and shrink according to task completions, the needs of the project as a whole are constantly changing, and so on. I wouldn't read too much into SJA's move out of AI development at this time - it will most likely simply be one or two of the aforementioned reasons. If I had to guess I would suggest that the upcoming big secret just needs a resource hit to get it on track time-wise. Betcha she returns! Or at least work on AI does.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Indeed. Elite's AI is the sole embodiment of System Security related risk.

Without effective AI, a "Low Security" system means nothing, as the risk of being interdicted by a weak "pirate pilot" is no risk at all. All a low-security tag means is that you could be bothered by the in-flight equivalent of unsolicited door-knockers.

Ditto for "PowerPlay opposing agents", although I'm trying very hard indeed to pretend PP doesn't exist in my game world.


Ineffective AI devalues a host of other in-game mechanics. Effective AI makes the game more than the sum of its parts.

Please be sure to prioritise the things that add to the overall integrity of the game world.

 

[Kastor]

Regardless of what SJA works on now I fully agree with the OP AI is one of the most important aspects of this game.

Give us some hope FD. Stop working on the frivolous and give us what is important. Also a balancing pass would be nice.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I fully endorse this thread.
Too many head scratching moments in the game at the minute.
Takes me out of the game world when I would be much happier fully immersed, like the good old days.

 

[Soliluna]

I cannot disagree with this, all of those would be very ​welcome additions to the game.

 

[daygobah]

Well looks like they took off the main coder for AI and moved them to something else.

I bet the code they did will still be used at a later date.

But ya the AI needs to be better. But the same can be said for any game that has AI. It can

always be better.