Game design fundamentals going from bad to worse

[HectorSmarties]

Hello everyone,


As I have already posted here, I am loving the simulation of this game. The ships are beautiful, the sound design is wonderful, the attention to detail is awesome. I am really excited to try out this game with a VR HMD once a consumer version comes out. However, all of this praise is only for the SIMULATION category of the game, to which I give 5 stars out of 5.


But now we come to the game design part, the glue that puts everything together and makes you come back to the simulation. Beforehand, let me introduce my profile as a gamer: I am married, with a young son, and work on a 9-5 job. I only play 2-3h per night, when I am not too tired.


I have just came back from a 1 month and half exploration trip, half-way to the galaxy core. In my way, I have scanned 1650 systems, which I have gladly sold to the current community goal location. Being out of the game for so long, it's only now that I am playing with Powerplay, and I am very disappointed in it.


The fundamentals seemed good, giving you the possibility the topple powers in a gigantic chess game. But all the game design decisions seem to have been taken to favour the players that will sink 16h per day to play E. It's freemium'ish to only give you 10 power play cargo items per 30min, it's grindy to demand 10k merits to max your ranking for a faction, but it's insane to make the merits decay 50% per week! As soon as I understood this, I came to realize that I would NEVER reach rating 5 on a faction.


I could even understand FDEV doing this if their business model was like Clash of Clans, where the money comes from the players sinking almost 20h per day to the game. But for E, I have paid $60 right away to NOT have to put up with freemium grind. FDEV is also not selling subscriptions, so I don't understand why they have to force us to grind so much..


I know that I am going to get flames for what I am about to say, but in the contrary of the comments I see around here, I strongly believe it is open play that is killing this game. I just wanted to play a strong simulation game with some solid game design under it to keep me going for 50-100h, and still offer me re-playability to come back to it every 6 months and have fun (like Civ5)! Instead, I get a strong simulation game where I can't advance except if I:


* Grind away for 5/15/40/70 tiers in community goals, and pray that enough people contribute so the payoffs are good
* Grind away for powerplay, and pray that enough people are helping out my faction
* Grind away bounty hunting in a RES, and pray that no CMDR comes to steal your bounties, or just annoy you
* Grind away trading, and pray that no CMDR comes in to kill you to please their twitch audience
* Grind EVERYTHING and ANYTHING, because FDEV can't increase payoffs to avoid either CMDRs exploiting the system, or pouring insane amount of hours into the game.

Do you see the logic above? You, me, everyone grinds to the point of not having fun anymore in order to compensate for the people who can grind, or exploit, the most. FDEV should cater to gamers without a lot of time to play; and speaking for myself, I would be willing to only play solo in a separate universe if I would know that the power play / general grinding requirements would be adequate to my playing time.


Finally, a question. What will happen to E in 5 years time? I can understand there will be no more players around, but how can I play solo with powerplay or CGs if there are no more players around?

Fly safe, o7

 

[Darth Ender]

is this your first MMO, much less first space combat/sim MMO?

You dont need to fly the biggest most expensive ships/equipment to have fun in the game. Nobody is forcing you to grind because someone else is/can.

No. The game will be fine in 10 years with plenty of players even if it stayed exactly how it is now...but it wont, it'll get better and better as it matures. There are games much worse that have been around with players that are over a decade old so the FUD can stop.

 

[CMDR Starschulz]

Actually, if i gave you 500m right now, would you still be playing the game in a year?

Consider having fun, and ignoring anything related to grinding. join a playergroup, and make your own story.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Yeah, I can't find exactly where but I remember a comment being made that the high levels of powerplay are for those with a 700mil of assets and don't know what to do so leave the game. Its to keep the hardcore audience playing for the politics.
The lower levels are obviously accessibly to all but I get the feeling you have misinterpreted a few things.

Its not really a sim, its an MMO/Sim/actiongame all rolled into one. As an MMO the players that do spend more time should get more rewards. If you don't have the time just don't expect to be in the high levels of anything. Be happy playing the game at your pace and doing what you enjoy.

Counter examples below:
3mil for 100 exploration reports at the current CG as an example is hardly a bad payout to effort ratio.
Powerplay is optional although it takes about 3 hours to get to the middle ranks and get the main rewards, hardly grinding until you get to rank 4 & 5.
Bounty hunting, trading should be fun not grinding. if you feel that you are grinding you are doing something wrong.


Lets go to the logical conclusion you seem to be going for which is removing grinding: Hardcore players get a fully fitted anaconda after a week of play, don't know what to do and either leave the game or just annoy other players.
Without a main quest the game has no end so logically many people set the most expensive ship as their End game target. Make that achievable within a week and most players will stop playing shortly after getting it.

tl:dr Your suggestion would lead to more people leaving the game than do currently. Don't grind and don't expect to be in to tiers, play at your own pace.

 

[HectorSmarties]

is this your first MMO, much less first space combat/sim MMO?

Yes, first MMO. I always had horror of this game genre. I bought E: D for the simulation (mostly), and the solo part of the game design of it, with the possibility to multiplayer if I wanted to play with friends. I really wasn't expecting a grindwall linked to the open world in the single player mode.

You dont need to fly the biggest most expensive ships/equipment to have fun in the game. Nobody is forcing you to grind because someone else is/can.

I understand this, and that's why I have accepted that I will NEVER fly anything heavier than a type 7 or ASP in this game. I know that I will never have the time to grind for the price tag and maintenance of a Python or a Anaconda.

No. The game will be fine in 10 years with plenty of players even if it stayed exactly how it is now...but it wont, it'll get better and better as it matures. There are games much worse that have been around with players that are over a decade old so the FUD can stop

This is wishful thinking on your part, and to be honest, I would rather have E: D to be awesome in 10, 20 or 30 years time. But once again, it annoys me that the possibility for me to replay this game in 5y time depends (again) on other players....

 

[HectorSmarties]

Yeah, I can't find exactly where but I remember a comment being made that the high levels of powerplay are for those with a 700mil of assets and don't know what to do so leave the game. Its to keep the hardcore audience playing for the politics.
The lower levels are obviously accessibly to all but I get the feeling you have misinterpreted a few things.

Its not really a sim, its an MMO/Sim/actiongame all rolled into one. As an MMO the players that do spend more time should get more rewards. If you don't have the time just don't expect to be in the high levels of anything. Be happy playing the game at your pace and doing what you enjoy.

Counter examples below:
3mil for 100 exploration reports at the current CG as an example is hardly a bad payout to effort ratio.
Powerplay is optional although it takes about 3 hours to get to the middle ranks and get the main rewards, hardly grinding until you get to rank 4 & 5.
Bounty hunting, trading should be fun not grinding. if you feel that you are grinding you are doing something wrong.


Lets go to the logical conclusion you seem to be going for which is removing grinding: Hardcore players get a fully fitted anaconda after a week of play, don't know what to do and either leave the game or just annoy other players.
Without a main quest the game has no end so logically many people set the most expensive ship as their End game target. Make that achievable within a week and most players will stop playing shortly after getting it.

tl:dr Your suggestion would lead to more people leaving the game than do currently. Don't grind and don't expect to be in to tiers, play at your own pace.

You make good points, but this seems to suggest that the PowerPlay update is not for my gamer profile. Basically, 1.3 does not bring any gameplay additions for me, except for an excuse to shoot down ships that are not aligned with my faction.
And you are right, if you are grinding, you are doing it wrong. This is why I avoid grinding as if it is the plague. I would have already switched to another game if this was the case, but what bothers me is that I feel I have paid for a game where I will only see 50-60% of the features.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

You make good points, but this seems to suggest that the PowerPlay update is not for my gamer profile. Basically, 1.3 does not bring any gameplay additions for me, except for an excuse to shoot down ships that are not aligned with my faction.
And you are right, if you are grinding, you are doing it wrong. This is why I avoid grinding as if it is the plague. I would have already switched to another game if this was the case, but what bothers me is that I feel I have paid for a game where I will only see 50-60% of the features.

This has come up before, I thought much the same (why do I want to join a faction etc), but it brings a raft of new things that have been overshadowed by powerplay.
Look at the amazing new AI, the new docking computer, mining limpets etc.
There are new territory discounts on weapons in certain systems etc, there are new RES sites (ok, take the good with the bad but you see where Im going with this...).

I'm a big fan of "try everything once". I did mining in a Cobra back before 1.2 came out and didn't like it too much but I can't wait to get stuck into trying limpets out

That last bit I fully agree with, I floated the following idea a few times with little success:
Have a shipyard or sandbox system where you are solo only but can experiment building any ship with any modules and testing them. Maybe have a ship designer that you can take into the tutorial missions and have fun with. Maybe CQC will fix this when it comes from X-box beta to everyone, we'll have to see.
My key point here though is that I don't think it should affect the main game but there should be an option to try out flying the T9 or Anaconda for a while for those with RL commitments..

 

[PavelKCZ]

I understand this, and that's why I have accepted that I will NEVER fly anything heavier than a type 7 or ASP in this game. I know that I will never have the time to grind for the price tag and maintenance of a Python or a Anaconda.

This is not entirely correct. When you have Cobra, you can do some trading (not a hardcore grinding) and you will have ASP in two weeks (or in couple of days, if you will do some CG). And with trading ASP, you can be in Python during another two weeks, playing hour or two per day.

 

[PiLhEaD]

I want to share a revelation I had recently.

I had been busy chasing credits, trading rares, first in a T6, and then an Asp. And I confess I wasn't really enjoying what I was doing, as all I was doing was crawling my way ever closer to getting the Python I desire - yet every <snip> time I checked my balance it was always an impossibly l-o-n-g way to go.

The first change came when I removed a hold from my Asp, replacing it with a 'super-duper' scanner, and upgraded the fuel scoop to be 'mega-super', and then, whilst I was still trading rares, I found that I had suddenly stopped thinking about the credits per hour, or indeed any financial reward, and I was simply enjoying being in space. So, when I found an unexplored system with (in one case 40+ bodies) I was stopping to scan each and every darn thing, no matter how long it took, and even popping into a nearby station just to have a look at it.

Then, I realised I had plenty credits for a very slippery Diamondback Scout. So now I am kitted for 12 tons of cargo, with some very naughty weapons, and I've since been taking every mission I can find (preferrably smuggling morally reprehensible 'goods'), and I have long since stopped even thinking about credits. I submit to every interdiction, and if I get toasted (and I haven't yet) 'so what!' it's cheap to replace and only my pride gets hurt.

So, what am I saying? Well to paraphrase The Matrix, 'there is no grind', except that which you put on your own shoulders. There is no winning. There is only the journey.

[/trite]

 

[Majic-12]

Power Less

I feel your pain, Hector. I love the game and was very excited about what Power Play could have brought to the table, but after seeing the implementation, it's clearly not designed for players like us.

For those to whom Power Play appeals, I hope it works out and enriches their game. My role however, will be as a spectator, because I just don't have enough time to spend pouring sand down a rat hole, or pushing boulders up cliffs and watching them roll back down.

I see MMOs mentioned, but a key feature of MMOs is progression in a persistent world. Decay mechanics work against progression and erase achievements without sustained, obligatory commitment.

As endearingly Zen as that may be, it's a terrible proposition for players who want to gain a sense of meaningful accomplishment for their efforts, without having to take on a second job.

Thankfully, Elite is still an awesome space simulator, and the classic path of accumulating wealth through exploration, trading and combat is still just as viable as ever.

Though it may be a bit disheartening to feel left out by such a significant new aspect of the game, it does at least offer a more dynamic backdrop for those of us who aren't the "players" of Power Play.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Power Less

I feel your pain, Hector. I love the game and was very excited about what Power Play could have brought to the table, but after seeing the implementation, it's clearly not designed for players like us.

For those to whom Power Play appeals, I hope it works out and enriches their game. My role however, will be as a spectator, because I just don't have enough time to spend pouring sand down a rat hole, or pushing boulders up cliffs and watching them roll back down.

I see MMOs mentioned, but a key feature of MMOs is progression in a persistent world. Decay mechanics work against progression and erase achievements without sustained, obligatory commitment.

As endearingly Zen as that may be, it's a terrible proposition for players who want to gain a sense of meaningful accomplishment for their efforts, without having to take on a second job.

Thankfully, Elite is still an awesome space simulator, and the classic path of accumulating wealth through exploration, trading and combat is still just as viable as ever.

Though it may be a bit disheartening to feel left out by such a significant new aspect of the game, it does at least offer a more dynamic backdrop for those of us who aren't the "players" of Power Play.

On the whole powerplay thing Ben Ryder just released this:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=159940

I don't agree with all of it but some good points are made.

 

[HectorSmarties]

@henry1491: I was already playing the game as you have mentioned. But with Powerplay, and all the hype around it, I was expecting something a bit more substantial for my gamer profile. After reading the replies to my 1st post, I came to realize that 1.3 was just not for me, except for the mining / cargo limpets.

Majic-12: You have nailed it, keyword being "spectactor"! This is exactly how I feel with powerplay. With CGs, at least I would have a substantial cr reward / discounts by helping out and reach 40/70/100 tier, but on powerplay, the real rewards are only for the top 5%.

I, for one, welcome the thargoid invasion. This, of course, assuming the Thargoids will also attack non-hardcore gamers. We never know if fdev will make them an exclusive for those sensible hardcore gamers living on twitch.tv...

 

[Kandarus]

The "it's a sandbox, use your imagination" explanation is a cop-out IMHO.

This is my impression of what we have so far and the addition of PP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjzBpJ1XYwc

 

[Majic-12]

On the whole powerplay thing Ben Ryder just released this:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=159940

I don't agree with all of it but some good points are made.

Thanks for the link!. It's a great summary.

Still not seeing the appeal, but for those to whom it does appeal, I hope it's a blast.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I know that I am going to get flames for what I am about to say, but in the contrary of the comments I see around here, I strongly believe it is open play that is killing this game. I just wanted to play a strong simulation game with some solid game design under it to keep me going for 50-100h, and still offer me re-playability to come back to it every 6 months and have fun (like Civ5)!

Infidel! Heretic! Open Play is not being catered to enough! Combat play is not being catered to enough!

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The "it's a sandbox, use your imagination" explanation is a cop-out IMHO.

This is my impression of what we have so far and the addition of PP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjzBpJ1XYwc

Isn't this combat logging?

 

[Lowievisser]

All i can say is that i wish i had so many game time as you and im rank 3 ,steady ongoing to lvl4 , i never had so much steady credits income with pp as before and way more fun.

your not w8 at a station 30min for merits are you? anyway im much more immersed with the game as before , and it feels less grindy.

 

[Commander Starcloak]

Yeah, I can't find exactly where but I remember a comment being made that the high levels of powerplay are for those with a 700mil of assets and don't know what to do so leave the game.

I'm on the cusp of Rating 5 and I have assets of about 75 million, with a credit balance of 20 million or so. My most expensive ship is the Clipper and I can't even afford to outfit it that well.

 

[FAAmecanic]

Actually, if i gave you 500m right now, would you still be playing the game in a year?

Consider having fun, and ignoring anything related to grinding. join a playergroup, and make your own story.

Well said and simply stated..... have some rep!

Im having a blast trying to save enough just to upgrade my Python to A7 rated powerplant Don't let the endgame content, and your desire to have it, ruin the game for you. The credits will come...sometimes fast, sometimes slow. Just like Powerplay merits.... if you can grind 100 merits at a time you will get there. And the time and things done to get there is what makes the game fun.... not the end state (gets boring then).

And joining a player group is the BEST way to have fun.

 

[FAAmecanic]

I understand this, and that's why I have accepted that I will NEVER fly anything heavier than a type 7 or ASP in this game. I know that I will never have the time to grind for the price tag and maintenance of a Python or a Anaconda.

Im like you...play a bit more on the weekends, but maybe 1-2 hours everyother day. I also play SWTOR at least one day on the weekend and every other day during the weekday.

I got lucky and hit a Global Community Goal (GC) and got 40 million payout..... plus this GC gave me 50 units of Diso Ma Corn available every stop (a rare). So I did grind for about a month running Corn from Diso to Coquim and rares from Coquim back to Diso (was a 6 system jump in my ASP). Ended up saving up about 80 million and bought my Python.

tldr: it can be done even by someone who is a dad, works 9-5 (well I work 7am - 5pm a lot of days), and has a life outside the game. There are so many ways to make killer credits.... just have to search the forums, keep an eye out of Community Goals.... and not worry about end game. Just enjoy flying, the beautiful scenery, blowing stuff up/trading/exploring....

 

[HectorSmarties]

Well said and simply stated..... have some rep!

Im having a blast trying to save enough just to upgrade my Python to A7 rated powerplant Don't let the endgame content, and your desire to have it, ruin the game for you. The credits will come...sometimes fast, sometimes slow. Just like Powerplay merits.... if you can grind 100 merits at a time you will get there. And the time and things done to get there is what makes the game fun.... not the end state (gets boring then).

And joining a player group is the BEST way to have fun.

I agree with Starschulz and you. I am not in this to amass virtual currency. However, this virtual currency is the only way to progress in the game.
As for the rest, it's because of the quality of the simulation that I keep on playing. If combat or space travelling were less pleasant, I would have already dropped the game a long time ago, or not even buy it.

Maybe my rant is unjustified. I was thinking I was buying a good space simulator that had some MMO that I could skip, but I was wrong..

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Im like you...play a bit more on the weekends, but maybe 1-2 hours everyother day. I also play SWTOR at least one day on the weekend and every other day during the weekday.

I got lucky and hit a Global Community Goal (GC) and got 40 million payout..... plus this GC gave me 50 units of Diso Ma Corn available every stop (a rare). So I did grind for about a month running Corn from Diso to Coquim and rares from Coquim back to Diso (was a 6 system jump in my ASP). Ended up saving up about 80 million and bought my Python.

tldr: it can be done even by someone who is a dad, works 9-5 (well I work 7am - 5pm a lot of days), and has a life outside the game. There are so many ways to make killer credits.... just have to search the forums, keep an eye out of Community Goals.... and not worry about end game. Just enjoy flying, the beautiful scenery, blowing stuff up/trading/exploring....

Well, these are good news. It's good to know that you can run across some good deals once a while to shore up the bank account.
Fly safe CMDR daddy o7

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All i can say is that i wish i had so many game time as you and im rank 3 ,steady ongoing to lvl4 , i never had so much steady credits income with pp as before and way more fun.

your not w8 at a station 30min for merits are you? anyway im much more immersed with the game as before , and it feels less grindy.

Did it only yesterday evening to fill up my trading ASP with 80 powerplay specific cargo units (gotta keep converting those utopian dissidents into slaves), but I will not keep doing it because it felt freemiumish (waiting 30min for something to happen, clash of clans anyone? ) and grindy.