Game emersion disconnect

[bryreichle]

Hello fellow commanders.
This game has been amazing, i love alot of things about it but, one of my biggest gripes is one, that i have with many other games too. When i want to know how too do something i have to look it up on youtube or on forum posts, making playing some games so annoying that i dont play them anymore and makes the world that i imagine get lost. Im sure many other commanders have felt the same way. But i want to know if its just me that get bothered by this stuff.
The flight tutorials were great and really got me off to a good start but after that ur droped off in a sidewinder with no idea how to really play the game. So what was i to do well i looked through the station and found a mission to complete i did that mission and a few more and that was fun and all but i was basically lost in the game that was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread. I looked through all my ship information panels and found no concepts of the game itself. So i did what everyone else had to do, which is google and youtube it. The thing that i hate to do but have to do it in games now a days especially open world sandbox games!
All game developers have to do is add to thier games is how to books they can even cost game currency. Say i want to learn how to be a miner i buy the book at a station and then i read how to do it or even watch a in game video about it from my ship which would be better since most people are visual learners.
Idk how commanders that play as a trader in this game if you want to make good profit in this game you have to use a third-party program off game. Y not add a ship module that evaluates trade goods and routes in the sorrounding systems at farther and farther distances with increasing price for the module. We do it in the real world y not the game worls. That way i dont have to leave the game screen to stare at my phone, tablet or another moniter.
For wepons, bounty hunting, millitary service, y not add commercials advertising them seeing the profit of bounty hunting the honor in military service and the benifits of different wepons. We do it in the real world y not in the game world.
Some of these things might be hard to do but every time i have to lose game emersion by looking up how to do something or where to find somthing i might pull my hair out. For crying out loud y do i have to look at wiki to find out were to buy a vulture! It should be a in game feature. What about the minor frations you can make them expand? but without this forum i wouldn't of even know about it. Im sure there are many other features in this game that i still dont know about and i may never find out about if there is no way for me to findout about them in the game. I can probably keep going about this but i what to know how other commanders feel and see if we can get a game were you dont need a wiki page or a forum full of how to guides to play this game.

See you in the expance signing off,
Cmdr Sgt Reichle,

 

[Don Alvarez]

Here you go:
View attachment 91406

 

[Soliluna]

He makes a fair point. Most game design columnist and video makers highlight the subtle direction cues given by the best games as the source of a lot of their greatness.

Some of the ideas you make are good. I don't see them being implemented though.

 

[defekt]

You don't _need_ to use thrid party tools to make money Trading, but they certainly do remove a giant amount of leg-work.

FD have fashioned a rod for their own back in this regard by not allowing ship's computer to remember trade data for stations visited. It's the most basic functionality that anyone diving into a space trading game would expect to see, and yet not so for ED.

The reason we can't have stored trade data has already been answered: because it would make trading "too easy". (That was said by a dev somewhere along the way, may even have been within these 'ere fora.) Sadly it's another example of the way ED has been designed: by adding complexity without also adding any depth.

So yes, of course folks are going to develop tools that sidestep such banal design choices. They probably would do it even if we could store trade data, such is the way of things, but at least the game itself wouldn't be actively shoving players in that direction.

 

[grae3107]

Break immersion by using Google to find stuff out? Look up from your monitor. That's immersion breaking.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Break immersion by using Google to find stuff out? Look up from your monitor. That's immersion breaking.

When I looked up in the DK2, all I could see was stars

 

[Hellhawk666]

The reason we can't have stored trade data has already been answered: because it would make trading "too easy". (That was said by a dev somewhere along the way, may even have been within these 'ere fora.) Sadly it's another example of the way ED has been designed: by adding complexity without also adding any depth.

I don't recall reading that, but if so - facepalm. So typical of FD.

They could give us appropriate in-game tools to support gameplay and then design a trade system that contains a level of complexity and challenge to provide balance. Instead they do it backwards and design a simplestic trade system that has to be balanced by hamstringing players.

Surely whoever approved this design concept must have realised that players would then just circumvent it by designing 3rd party tools, or did they not even think that far ahead.

 

[Kristov]

Elite Dangerous follows the precedent set by the original Elite in 1984.

Here's a ship, here's a few credits, have fun!

Once upon a time, games didn't hold your hand and tell you how to play them, even the ones that came with huge manuals didn't do that, as those manuals were often full of the story and lore and the basic control schemas and that's it. No walk throughs, no directions on how to do stuff beyond install the software and run it, and that's it.

For many of us, this is good, we like this, we have to actually, you know, THINK and figure out stuff on our own, instead of being led around and told how to play the game. I'm fully aware that some people don't like that, they want the game to show them what to do and how to do it, and there's any number of video games out there that cater to that specific mentality, but this isn't one of them. You can always look up how to do things in the game, nothing wrong with that, but that's NOT the fault of the game nor of the devs that you can't be bothered to figure out stuff on your own and instead have to rely on others to do your thinking for you.

A little harsh, maybe, but that's how it is, you can't be bothered to figure things out, you want someone else to do it all for you, therefore you hit google and youtube to find the easy ways to play the game instead of just, you know, PLAYING the game and having some fun using your own brain to figure things out.

 

[defekt]

I don't recall reading that, but if so - facepalm. So typical of FD.

They could give us appropriate in-game tools to support gameplay and then design a trade system that contains a level of complexity and challenge to provide balance. Instead they do it backwards and design a simplestic trade system that has to be balanced by hamstringing players.

Surely whoever approved this design concept must have realised that players would then just circumvent it by designing 3rd party tools, or did they not even think that far ahead.

Pretty much. You can try to press the issue again, many have since, but I doubt you'll get the same answer (if you get any answer at all).

The trade system is so fragile that the memory and processing power of a 1980s scientific calculator 'breaks' it, in their eyes. Not the most ringing of endorsements for a large part of what ED is supposed to be good at, is it.

 

[sonichi813]

A lot of threads about this today. Elite gives you all the tools to trade and turn a profit, maybe not a consistent x credits/hour, but a profit. All of these tools are in game and don't require a pen or paper. You can easily from the commodities market, pick a product, pick a system, and see what is being exported or imported to and from that selected system. Elite does not provide you with a tutorial on how to do this and most players just assume that the tools are not there and use 3rd party tools instead which are much more straight forward with the information, but in my opinion take's the challenge out of the game (kinda like using a walkthrough on a RPG). Just me 2 cents

Fly safe CMDRs

 

[bryreichle]

Ok well thats all fun and stuff but if i want to buy a wepon or ship there should be a search function to find it. We have amazon nowadays you can be dam curtain that in the future they will have companies advertising thier products. No one wants to spend an hour or more of game time searching for that item. Not everyone lives close to a capital system that has everything. 200ly to the capital that will have the item i want, or the thousands of other systems that might have in and are only 30ly or less a way.

 

[defekt]

A lot of threads about this today. Elite gives you all the tools to trade and turn a profit, maybe not a consistent x credits/hour, but a profit. All of these tools are in game and don't require a pen or paper. You can easily from the commodities market, pick a product, pick a system, and see what is being exported or imported to and from that selected system. Elite does not provide you with a tutorial on how to do this and most players just assume that the tools are not there and use 3rd party tools instead which are much more straight forward with the information, but in my opinion take's the challenge out of the game (kinda like using a walkthrough on a RPG). Just me 2 cents

Fly safe CMDRs

Well said.

Personally, I artificially increase the difficulty of trading in ED by never buying a commodity with the letter 'T' in it. It's quite the challenge to turn a good profit, let me tell you!

Facetiousness aside, the real reason ship's computer doesn't take a snapshot of the trade sheet for stations visited isn't because FD want players to use the pretty galaxy map trade route thingy, it's not even because that's the way Elite was played back in the 80s, it's because the trade system is too simplistic to survive contact with such a function.

If the trade system was (far) more fluid, quickly reacted to system-wide events or even fear of events that haven't yet happened, developed short-term emergent markets, had trending data so the savvy trader might be able to predict a moment to 'buy cheap', etc., etc, then snapshot data would only be so useful given that the longer you've been away from that station the less accurate your stored data becomes. But of course, the trade system in Elite isn't anything like that dynamic, it's effectively static for most intents and purposes, therefore stored trade data would indeed make trading "too easy". More is the very real pitty.

The trade system in ED is by far the biggest let-down for me. Even the trade system in Sid Meier's Colonization (1994) had more finesse than ED's.

 

[Hellhawk666]

Elite Dangerous follows the precedent set by the original Elite in 1984.

Here's a ship, here's a few credits, have fun!
...
<snip>

Yes, well, that may be true but with respect it was also 32 years ago. Times have moved on and gamers expect something a little more sophisticated now than we did when wire frame graphics and monophonic midi sound were big news. I know - I was there and played Elite when it first appeared. I'd been playing computer games since 1977 when I was at university, and I've played them ever since, of many genres and on many platforms. I've been playing online games since the old MUDs.

IMHO Elite Dangerous is a fantastic and addictive game with endless potential that is unfortunately held back by some tragic development decisions and an unfortunate tendency on the part of FD to nerf gameplay to a level of simplicity that borders on insulting to players. The structural framework of the gameworld is wonderful - the artwork, physics, sound, flight model, combat etc. but the gameplay elements that are implemented into that framework are often seriously wanting.

I don't buy the fanboi apologetics that are so frequently parroted about this game, and I AM a fanboi.

 

[sonichi813]

Well said.

Personally, I artificially increase the difficulty of trading in ED by never buying a commodity with the letter 'T' in it. It's quite the challenge to turn a good profit, let me tell you!

Facetiousness aside, the real reason ship's computer doesn't take a snapshot of the trade sheet for stations visited isn't because FD want players to use the pretty galaxy map trade route thingy, it's not even because that's the way Elite was played back in the 80s, it's because the trade system is too simplistic to survive contact with such a function.

If the trade system was (far) more fluid, quickly reacted to system-wide events or even fear of events that haven't yet happened, developed short-term emergent markets, had trending data so the savvy trader might be able to predict a moment to 'buy cheap', etc., etc, then snapshot data would only be so useful given that the longer you've been away from that station the less accurate your stored data becomes. But of course, the trade system in Elite isn't anything like that dynamic, it's effectively static for most intents and purposes, therefore stored trade data would indeed make trading "too easy". More is the very real pitty.

The trade system in ED is by far the biggest let-down for me. Even the trade system in Sid Meier's Colonization (1994) had more finesse than ED's.

Please enlighten me on how using the in game tools and information for trading is "artificially increasing the difficulty". Also it seems your complaint is that trading in Elite isn't as complex as you want it to be which is a completely subjective argument. The markets do react to events, supply and demand. Maybe not to the extent that you want them to, but to say they are static is simply false.

 

[Hemlock Reaper]

Elite Dangerous follows the precedent set by the original Elite in 1984.

Here's a ship, here's a few credits, have fun!

Once upon a time, games didn't hold your hand and tell you how to play them, even the ones that came with huge manuals didn't do that, as those manuals were often full of the story and lore and the basic control schemas and that's it. No walk throughs, no directions on how to do stuff beyond install the software and run it, and that's it.

For many of us, this is good, we like this, we have to actually, you know, THINK and figure out stuff on our own, instead of being led around and told how to play the game. I'm fully aware that some people don't like that, they want the game to show them what to do and how to do it, and there's any number of video games out there that cater to that specific mentality, but this isn't one of them. You can always look up how to do things in the game, nothing wrong with that, but that's NOT the fault of the game nor of the devs that you can't be bothered to figure out stuff on your own and instead have to rely on others to do your thinking for you.

A little harsh, maybe, but that's how it is, you can't be bothered to figure things out, you want someone else to do it all for you, therefore you hit google and youtube to find the easy ways to play the game instead of just, you know, PLAYING the game and having some fun using your own brain to figure things out.

Once upon a time games had very little in the way of story, options and complexity. Everything was new and exciting to a generation of people who had never seen this type of technology before, and many spent hours drowsing themselves in the new world regardless of the many bugs, hardships and limitation of the period because it was new to them. Today though much has changed, there is a lot more competition with higher standards in all areas of gameplay to include Quality of life requirements, with more possibilities due to better technology and fields of people trained to make games.

Simply put, We have a new generation of players and game makers, this isn't the old days anymore. Attempting to force an old limited style of gameplay on the current generation of players will only hinder the future of elite Dangerous. Modern players have seen more, have higher expectations and will not stick around for a game made like its straight out of 1984. So all elite dangerous will end up with is the old original players who played back 30 years ago. Will that be enough to sustain the future of elite?

I don't think so, as i said before they can make this game in the style of 1984 with the comforts of 2016.