Gameplay loops in elite dangerous

In elite we have "careers", ships and the sandbox.

Let's keep it base level with combat, trade and instagr... I mean exploration for careers.

So the basic game loop works that you start with a pot to pee in, a sidewinder and you're off. You are presented by the game with these basic activities, and a basic understanding that you need credits because you want to upgrade your ship to do them "better" and that requires.... Credits.

So the loop begins.
Problem - you need a more effective ship.

Why - to do things more efficiently/have more fun

Solution - get a better ship/upgrade, which gives us:

Problem: you need credits, and later materials/data

Why - to upgrade your ship and modules so you can do an activity more efficiently/safely

Solution - do the activities on your own (Rez sites, trade routes, mining, exploring, mat farming, etc) and/or utilize the mission board to steer you to earn credits/mats

Now this is repeated through the "ship progression tree" until you have the ships and upgrades you want. So it makes sense that this starting loop stops becoming the primary driver, and is only occasionally revisited when the player wants to try something new as far as ships/loadouts go.


So let's look at what comes after, since the player can exhaust that first loop under the premise that it's done for solving the stated problems the player runs into in the beginning of the game. What do we call what comes after the beginning game... Let's just make up a term and call it the endgame.

What problem is now introduced by the game for the player to solve?

Anyone? I got nothing.

The player can "create" problems to solve sure. You want to try out x build. Or attempt x feat of your chosen career path.

Squadrons/PP come close. You join a group, and now that group's goals/problems are yours, by your own choice still, but at least there's a mechanic to actually be in a squadron/pp faction. But these activities are mostly just fill number bucket with numbers, in many cases quite literally.


Eventually you'll have enough credits, mats, ships, which means our beginning gameplay loop breaks down. So whats the problem that the game presents you with once you arrive at the "endgame."

This is where the mile wide and inch deep phrase comes from. If you always have to choose your problems, they don't really feel like they're problems, or even important to the game, because if it's optional it must not be that important.
Thargoids are a good beaten dead horse we can look at as an example.

The game needs to present the player with some kind of problem that needs to be addressed once the starting loop is exhausted, or only addressable once completed sufficiently.

Tada. Welcome to elite dangerous.

note: I'm not mentioning modes, or PvP by design. PvP exists within the context of the pve game and as a separate method of problem solving when available. The lack of that problem is the topic. Thank you for taking time out of your day looking at cats on the inte... I mean working from home to read this.
 
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Well i believe the game sometimes requires either Pharm Isolators or Imp Components.
If there were no material traders it would probably be a conversion rate of approx..

3 x Herbie Fully Loaded Fleet Carriers
=
10 PI or IC

(Within 2.8% roughly)


o7
 
Isn't that why ED is called a sandbox? Once endgame is reached, I create my own content. I've played other games where, once the endgame is reached, game is over so I can start over if I want to try another play through with different choices.
Exactly. Once I had enough credits (and materials, and ranks), I didn't moan that there was nothing to do; I sat back and said, "Now I can do whatever I like".
 
Isn't that why ED is called a sandbox? Once endgame is reached, I create my own content. I've played other games where, once the endgame is reached, game is over so I can start over if I want to try another play through with different choices.
Wow. You mean when i can actually do everything and get bored? Impossible.
It's not a problem of being able to do everything. The question, that I ask myself, is why? Is there an intriguing reason? Some interesting thing to discover that will impact the sandbox or the story? Outcome I'm working towards, be it alone or part of a larger group? The game has its moments of fun. But it also has the moments in between when you're doing the leg work and what not. So when deciding what to do and evaluate where that time doing legwork is best spent, I often find myself just sitting in the top selling LTD system above the star. Maximum fun minimum legwork. But I would like there to be good answers to my questions for the other activities too.
 
In elite we have "careers", ships and the sandbox.

Let's keep it base level with combat, trade and instagr... I mean exploration for careers.

So the basic game loop works that you start with a pot to pee in, a sidewinder and you're off. You are presented by the game with these basic activities, and a basic understanding that you need credits because you want to upgrade your ship to do them "better" and that requires.... Credits.

So the loop begins.
Problem - you need a more effective ship.

Why - to do things more efficiently/have more fun

Solution - get a better ship/upgrade, which gives us:

Problem: you need credits, and later materials/data

Why - to upgrade your ship and modules so you can do an activity more efficiently/safely

Solution - do the activities on your own (Rez sites, trade routes, mining, exploring, mat farming, etc) and/or utilize the mission board to steer you to earn credits/mats

Now this is repeated through the "ship progression tree" until you have the ships and upgrades you want. So it makes sense that this starting loop stops becoming the primary driver, and is only occasionally revisited when the player wants to try something new as far as ships/loadouts go.


So let's look at what comes after, since the player can exhaust that first loop under the premise that it's done for solving the stated problems the player runs into in the beginning of the game. What do we call what comes after the beginning game... Let's just make up a term and call it the endgame.

What problem is now introduced by the game for the player to solve?

Anyone? I got nothing.

The player can "create" problems to solve sure. You want to try out x build. Or attempt x feat of your chosen career path.

Squadrons/PP come close. You join a group, and now that group's goals/problems are yours, by your own choice still, but at least there's a mechanic to actually be in a squadron/pp faction. But these activities are mostly just fill number bucket with numbers, in many cases quite literally.


Eventually you'll have enough credits, mats, ships, which means our beginning gameplay loop breaks down. So whats the problem that the game presents you with once you arrive at the "endgame."

This is where the mile wide and inch deep phrase comes from. If you always have to choose your problems, they don't really feel like they're problems, or even important to the game, because if it's optional it must not be that important.
Thargoids are a good beaten dead horse we can look at as an example.

The game needs to present the player with some kind of problem that needs to be addressed once the starting loop is exhausted, or only addressable once completed sufficiently.

Tada. Welcome to elite dangerous.

note: I'm not mentioning modes, or PvP by design. PvP exists within the context of the pve game and as a separate method of problem solving when available. The lack of that problem is the topic. Thank you for taking time out of your day looking at cats on the inte... I mean working from home to read this.

A thoughtful synopsis. (y)


Seems, to me, that the easiest way to expand the challenge the game presents (and I deliberately use the word "expand" rather than, say, "deepen") would be by incorporating a bunch of different elements into the existing game-loops.

For example, you start off with some basic, fundamental, criteria such as:-
  • Legal or illegal.
  • Faction-based; Imperal, Federal or Alliance.
  • Short or long distance.
  • Risky or or safe, and levels of risk.
  • Incorporating various "core activities" from the game; Combat, exploration, mining, trading, passenger transport etc.
  • Ship size; Small, medium, large, FC, SLF and SRV.
  • Player participation; Single player, Wing or Multicrew.

You then create various limitations that make each of those criteria important.
  • Criminals can't do lawful stuff, lawful CMDRs can't do criminal stuff until they reach a certain notoriety (not necessarily tied to the current "notoriety" mechanic).
  • Faction-based stuff requires certain rank within the associated faction.
  • Criteria such as mission-type and activities will, obviously, require ships with suitable capabilities.
  • Certain game assets would be modified so they can only be interacted with using suitable ships - Orbital platforms where only a small ship (or even an SLF) can get inside, for example.
  • You'll need to hook up with the relavent people to complete certain types of mission.


With all that in place, the game would procedurally-generate "super-missions" that contain a variety of criteria, would involve chained-missions and would offer high rates of pay and mat rewards.

Missions are, of course, still completely optional given the ability to earn credits from mining and get mat's from current sources but the payments for these super-missions would provide a viable alternative.
With missions avaialble that players might want to complete, they'd constantly need to be updating various assets, such as ships, modules, engineering, alliegances, legal status, skills etc so that they qualify to carry out these missions.
 
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End game content isn't usually presented as a challenge for the user - it's stuff they can choose to do if they want. Because it happens at the 'end' of the game.

So unless you've written a comprehensive guide to how the BGS works, how missions are distributed, flight mechanics of all ships, killed and eaten a Hydra in a sidewinder, or maybe 2, finished both Ram Tah missions (no guides!), found a new Guardian Site*, found a new Thargoid base, discovered a new Generation Ship, and a new Bio lifeform type then I'd say there's plenty for you to be getting on with.

I'm sure others have a different set of missions they are working on :)

* Actually no - you should find a new Guardian Bubble - they are even rarer :ROFLMAO:
 
If find build theory crafting and experimentation to be the most interesting feature of the game. The rest is gates.

For example, can you build a combat asp explorer with a full load of small guardian plasmas and have an alpha strike mini boat for the res?

Is it better to have LR thermal vent beams and plasma slug rails on a res zone viper, or do efficient plasmas work better?

Is there any way to work in shock cannons with any build?

Is there a viable all beam res build? What is the smallest ship you can do it on?

Can I do a wing assassination mission efficiently in anything smaller in a Chieftain?

When I pvp with friends, what is the biggest disadvantage I can give myself and still be competitive?

You see what I mean, it's like the game is legos, and I'm just experimenting. That is the endgame for me.
 
End game content isn't usually presented as a challenge for the user - it's stuff they can choose to do if they want. Because it happens at the 'end' of the game.

So unless you've written a comprehensive guide to how the BGS works, how missions are distributed, flight mechanics of all ships, killed and eaten a Hydra in a sidewinder, or maybe 2, finished both Ram Tah missions (no guides!), found a new Guardian Site*, found a new Thargoid base, discovered a new Generation Ship, and a new Bio lifeform type then I'd say there's plenty for you to be getting on with.

I'm sure others have a different set of missions they are working on :)

* Actually no - you should find a new Guardian Bubble - they are even rarer :ROFLMAO:
This^ I keep coming back to ED because there's a ton of stuff I've never tried, seen or just scratched the surface. And a bunch of stuff I do half-good and just need to get better at it.
 
If find build theory crafting and experimentation to be the most interesting feature of the game. The rest is gates.

For example, can you build a combat asp explorer with a full load of small guardian plasmas and have an alpha strike mini boat for the res?

Is it better to have LR thermal vent beams and plasma slug rails on a res zone viper, or do efficient plasmas work better?

Is there any way to work in shock cannons with any build?

Is there a viable all beam res build? What is the smallest ship you can do it on?

Can I do a wing assassination mission efficiently in anything smaller in a Chieftain?

When I pvp with friends, what is the biggest disadvantage I can give myself and still be competitive?

You see what I mean, it's like the game is legos, and I'm just experimenting. That is the endgame for me.
I definitely know what you're saying and currently do this myself. As well as participate in organized and unorganized PvP. I just find myself asking why I need to jump through the gameplay hoops of setting it all up. Trying to express this correctly, why the barrier to entry to things, if once you're in, you aren't in a different position (?) from the perspective of the game world?

Hopefully that gets it across.
 
I definitely know what you're saying and currently do this myself. As well as participate in organized and unorganized PvP. I just find myself asking why I need to jump through the gameplay hoops of setting it all up. Trying to express this correctly, why the barrier to entry to things, if once you're in, you aren't in a different position (?) from the perspective of the game world?

Hopefully that gets it across.
Yep. If there weren't meta optimized methods for getting creds, mats and rank - I would have left this game a long time ago.
 
End game content isn't usually presented as a challenge for the user - it's stuff they can choose to do if they want. Because it happens at the 'end' of the game.

So unless you've written a comprehensive guide to how the BGS works, how missions are distributed, flight mechanics of all ships, killed and eaten a Hydra in a sidewinder, or maybe 2, finished both Ram Tah missions (no guides!), found a new Guardian Site*, found a new Thargoid base, discovered a new Generation Ship, and a new Bio lifeform type then I'd say there's plenty for you to be getting on with.

I'm sure others have a different set of missions they are working on :)

* Actually no - you should find a new Guardian Bubble - they are even rarer :ROFLMAO:
I get your point. And that's a good argument for exploration specifically too.

But my point is that I want to play elite dangerous, not necessarily play cheese helmet's list of stuff I made up all by myself. I can, have and do create my own challenges, like making profits from combat, and piracy match my mining profits in my stats, or become a well known pirate, or make whatever wacky build I come up with. Those aren't my issue. My issue is that elite doesn't contribute to my list.
 
The game needs to present the player with some kind of problem that needs to be addressed once the starting loop is exhausted, or only addressable once completed sufficiently.

This is where ED kind of falls short as a Sandbox game, and something that games like UO, EVE online and Shadowbane got right.

NOTE: I'm about to make a statement, and I want folks to please read what I say after it before jumping all over me. If you've seen my responses in other threads, you'll know that my views don't align with what you'll probably make an assumption that I'm saying, so please... read to the end.

Sandbox endgame generally comes down to PvP, in some form or fashion. I don't mean that every player participants in the act of fighting another player, though. In general, Sandbox games revolve around conflict created by players as they each try to modify or manipulate the world around them using the tools the sandbox gives them. Building bases/towns, manipulating economies, stealing, creating, etc etc.

Take EVE Online. In EVE, the core "changer" of the universe are the wars between Alliances. When 2 alliances go to war, the effects can be felt across the ENTIRE game; the battle bleeds out everywhere. But even people who don't fight, are 100% pacifist, are still contributing to "the war effort". Materials do not just magically appear in Player stations out in the black, you have to put them there; this means that every player in those alliances who is a carebear farmer is increasing the stocks of raw materials when they go to the station to sell. Those materials become ammo and munitions, ships, etc which are then thrown at the front lines. Traders and space truckers who bring materials from high sec (their version of "the bubble") into war-torn sectors are bringing in the materials needed to do this as well.

But even in high-sec, the farmers and traders are moving around materials which will be picked up by the alliances and moved off to null sec for the fight. Every carebear, space trucker and pvper is being affected in some way or another by what's happening out in the black while the PvP players are blowing each other up.

The same happened in Shadowbane as well. UO was dissimilar in the idea of wars, but overall the concepts of supply/demand for PvPers losing their armor constantly was still the same thing, and people fought all the time over stuff.

Ultimately, we have no conflict between players on a scale that matters. PvP in elite is not for a reward that makes a persistent change to the universe; at best it's for some trinket reward, at worst it's just ganking for the schadenfreude of knowing you ruined someones enjoyment for a few minutes. ED has nothing that a player can do to really shape the universe around them, and so there's also no reason for another player to want to stop them.

IMO, that's what ED could really use.
 
This is where ED kind of falls short as a Sandbox game, and something that games like UO, EVE online and Shadowbane got right.

NOTE: I'm about to make a statement, and I want folks to please read what I say after it before jumping all over me. If you've seen my responses in other threads, you'll know that my views don't align with what you'll probably make an assumption that I'm saying, so please... read to the end.

Sandbox endgame generally comes down to PvP, in some form or fashion. I don't mean that every player participants in the act of fighting another player, though. In general, Sandbox games revolve around conflict created by players as they each try to modify or manipulate the world around them using the tools the sandbox gives them. Building bases/towns, manipulating economies, stealing, creating, etc etc.

Take EVE Online. In EVE, the core "changer" of the universe are the wars between Alliances. When 2 alliances go to war, the effects can be felt across the ENTIRE game; the battle bleeds out everywhere. But even people who don't fight, are 100% pacifist, are still contributing to "the war effort". Materials do not just magically appear in Player stations out in the black, you have to put them there; this means that every player in those alliances who is a carebear farmer is increasing the stocks of raw materials when they go to the station to sell. Those materials become ammo and munitions, ships, etc which are then thrown at the front lines. Traders and space truckers who bring materials from high sec (their version of "the bubble") into war-torn sectors are bringing in the materials needed to do this as well.

But even in high-sec, the farmers and traders are moving around materials which will be picked up by the alliances and moved off to null sec for the fight. Every carebear, space trucker and pvper is being affected in some way or another by what's happening out in the black while the PvP players are blowing each other up.

The same happened in Shadowbane as well. UO was dissimilar in the idea of wars, but overall the concepts of supply/demand for PvPers losing their armor constantly was still the same thing, and people fought all the time over stuff.

Ultimately, we have no conflict between players on a scale that matters. PvP in elite is not for a reward that makes a persistent change to the universe; at best it's for some trinket reward, at worst it's just ganking for the schadenfreude of knowing you ruined someones enjoyment for a few minutes. ED has nothing that a player can do to really shape the universe around them, and so there's also no reason for another player to want to stop them.

IMO, that's what ED could really use.
Totally agree. We lack a way for players to drive the gameplay loops. Be it economies, PvP, thargoids or pve, or even somehow utilizing the information of new regions and systems that explorers find and creating 1-2k person settlements, etc. Ideas abound, but the function is needed.
 
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