General / Off-Topic German vice-chancellor Sigmar Gabriel says break-up of EU no longer 'unthinkable'

German vice-chancellor Sigmar Gabriel says break-up of EU no longer 'unthinkable' [up] :cool:

Politician says Angela Merkel needs to give some ground to France in order to prevent the anti-EU Marine Le Pen becoming president

Germany's insistence on austerity in the euro zone has left Europe more divided than ever and a break-up of the European Union is no longer inconceivable, German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel told Der Spiegel magazine.

Gabriel, whose Social Democrats (SPD) are junior partner to Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives in her ruling grand coalition, said strenuous efforts by countries like France and Italy to reduce their fiscal deficits came with political risks.

"I once asked the chancellor, what would be more costly for Germany: for France to be allowed to have half a percentage point more deficit, or for Marine Le Pen to become president?" he said, referring to the leader of the far-right National Front.

"Until today, she still owes me an answer," added Gabriel, whose SPD favours a greater focus on investment while Merkel's conservatives put more emphasis on fiscal discipline as a foundation for economic prosperity.

The SPD is expected to choose Gabriel, their long-standing chairman who is also economy minister, to run against Merkel for chancellor in September's federal election, senior party sources said on Thursday.

Asked if he really believed he could win more votes by transferring more German money to other EU countries, Gabriel replied: "I know that this discussion is extremely unpopular."

"But I also know about the state of the EU. It is no longer unthinkable that it breaks apart," he said in the interview, published on Saturday.

Link.


criticalreader
"Because Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the European community – economically and politically." Very nice for Germany, but not sustainable if the rest of Europe is circling the plughole, economically speaking.

The EU needs to be reformed from the ground up, as the present stifling dogmas of "more Europe" are in full contradiction with the very cultural foundations and differences that make Europe so unique. Attempting to force all Europeans into an ideological mold with the brutal force of the EU-newspeak sledgehammer, where nothing must ever be questioned, has failed miserably. The EU Politburo has turned Europe into a non-democratic continent, with millions of citizens struggling to make ends meet, while the banks and large corporations thrive. This is not realistic.

Hoping that all Europeans will be as productive and quality conscious as Fritz the German is a hopeless illusion. The real question is what was wrong with the former European Economic Community (EEC) structure, which paved the way to free trade, but also enabled its European member countries to retain national sovereignty, and above all, control of their respective national economies without the straitjacket of a single currency. Incredibly, it was France that imposed the Euro on Germany, and was thus granted to proceed with reunification. French economic policy is now largely decided in Berlin, probably not what France expected to see. German control without the sound of marching soldiers.

Any deficit leeway now granted to France, in a bid to prevent Mrs Le Pen from being elected, would come far too late: after the successive failure of presidents Sarkozy and Hollande, and unemployment numbers nudging the 6-million mark, French voters are going to ensure that the next elected president and government implement changes to soften their plight - in spite of the fact that 56% (!) of French GDP is linked to government services. Chances are that a majority of French citizens would now vote to leave the EU if a referendum were to be held. The Italians would doubtlessly do likewise. The German locomotive is powering along like a Porsche, but the wagons are becoming detached one after the other, Mr Gabriel.

Only a return to a structure similar to that of the former EEC may allow the post-1945 European project of economic and political cooperation, aimed at preventing future wars, to survive. The old guard in Brussels (Juncker et al.) need to be replaced ASAP, with key decision-making powers restored to the member countries. Above all, the interests of the average European citizens need to be taken into account: more democracy, please! Trying to insist on the EU being progressively transformed into a new form of "EUSSR" will indeed fail sooner than many among the political elites would like to think. Maybe "less Europe" is the correct answer?

2017 thus needs to be a year of action, Mr Gabriel. One can only hope that Mrs Merkel is voted out of office after the next elections in Germany. She is one of the key reasons why a majority of British voters opted for Brexit.

[video=youtube;y_n98nPp3zA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_n98nPp3zA[/video]
 
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Interesting. As someone that voted for Brexit I'd not have voted to leave it if it was still the EEC and I'd certainly look positively at the idea of joining the EEC if that opportunity ever arose. Can't imagine I'd ever vote to rejoin the EU unless it was radically changed.
 
Not even his own party likes that guy.
Internally 27:30 against Martin Schulz (former EU Politician).

https://web.de/magazine/politik/umf...chancen-angela-merkel-sigmar-gabriel-31984270

And he's 25% : 62% against Merkel.
He flip-flops true Trump style and tries to make "politics" where every 2nd of his sentences starts with "Merkel ...". Even his "we need to focus on policy for the next elections, not personal attacks" speech started like that. Mom issues much? :p

"The EU needs to be reformed from the ground up, as the present stifling dogmas of "more Europe" are in full contradiction with the very cultural foundations and differences that make Europe so unique."

Eh, too much EU is against §20 of German Constitution, which is protected by the "eternity clause". Germany is a souvereign democratic and federal country and shall remain so.
I wish those "experts" would do at least a bit of research - culture blabla instead of "law - end of discussion, let's move on". Guess that doesn't make such a heartthrobbing story. (and I wish they'd report on who actually runs the show a bit more often: http://www.campdenfb.com/article/top-100-family-businesses-europe-0 'cultural differences?' .. they're all the same. Go to Geneva or Monaco.)

And I wrote a few weeks ago that our Liberals consider and discuss a "core Europe" .. just let all those southern European countries and their "Germany profits most" leave and work with the north-eastern Countries, who're not indebted that much.
 
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Interesting. As someone that voted for Brexit I'd not have voted to leave it if it was still the EEC and I'd certainly look positively at the idea of joining the EEC if that opportunity ever arose. Can't imagine I'd ever vote to rejoin the EU unless it was radically changed.
lets imagine the EU dissolved, and we put the European Trade Alliance (ETA) in it's place.

this would be focused only on trade

so, we want to make trade super easy between the 28 members.

how do we do that?

I guess the easy thing would be to say no tariffs between members so that's sorted, easy.

what do we do if one member slaps regulations on products, lets say toys need a special government stamp, that defacto exclude other states products? the other states would respond with their own "regulations". this would gum up the market so reducing it's effectiveness. as an example the trade war between the EU and US lasted nearly 20 years and neither the US or EU grow bananas!

at that point, the ETA is little more than a tariff free zone.

from the TTIP negotiations it was estimated that only 10% of the benefit was due to reducing tariffs. the rest was due to streamlining regulations.

so any proposed ETA would come nowhere near the economic benefit of the EU.
 
lets imagine the EU dissolved, and we put the European Trade Alliance (ETA) in it's place.

this would be focused only on trade

so, we want to make trade super easy between the 28 members.

how do we do that?

I guess the easy thing would be to say no tariffs between members so that's sorted, easy.

what do we do if one member slaps regulations on products, lets say toys need a special government stamp, that defacto exclude other states products? the other states would respond with their own "regulations". this would gum up the market so reducing it's effectiveness. as an example the trade war between the EU and US lasted nearly 20 years and neither the US or EU grow bananas!

at that point, the ETA is little more than a tariff free zone.

from the TTIP negotiations it was estimated that only 10% of the benefit was due to reducing tariffs. the rest was due to streamlining regulations.

so any proposed ETA would come nowhere near the economic benefit of the EU.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. I totally respect your opinions but I think you and I differ substantially on how much weight we give to economic issues. While I most certainly am concerned about the economy I'm prepared to accept the the risk of a fair amount of damage to it in the short term and moderately reduced prosperity in the long term if that it the price of returning sovereignty that has been handed over to the EU.

There is almost no accountability to voters in the EU. In our rubbish system at least a party sets out what it wants to do and I get to vote for an MP in that party and they do what they say or I might not vote for them. In the EU my MEP gets to vote on issues but they don't get to say what they are and I've got no way of picking who calls the shots or they way the EU is heading. It does what it wants. We have absolutely no say in the direction it takes, we can't even vote for any of the presidents. For me that democracy deficit is something I cannot get past and short of an economic catastrophe I'm willing to take the risk. The EEC didn't push things to far and it wasn't anywhere near as expansive so I could accept it.

It is simply unacceptable to me that a we can choose a government that says it wants to do X only to be told by the EU they can't do whatever X is. That is the current situation as I see it.
 
We have absolutely no say in the direction it takes, we can't even vote for any of the presidents. For me that democracy deficit is something I cannot get past and short of an economic catastrophe I'm willing to take the risk.

And that from a country where the head of state is the queen and succession is hereditary.

Is that actually worse than other heads of state? Nope. Just about 100% less democratic.

[rolleyes]
 
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And that from a country where the head of state is the queen and succession is hereditary.

Is that actually worse than other heads of state? Nope. Just about 100% less democratic.

[rolleyes]

Our head of state doesn't have any political input, so the fact we don't have an elected head of state is totally irrelevant.
 
Break-up of the EU is possible. The austerity imposed by the Germany, the migratory submersion incited by the Germany, unemployment of mass, the technocratic drift of the EU, the lack of transparency and democracy of the EU. All this can not last forever. Merckel and Juncker and all their teams of irresponsible technocrats must leave
 
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I spoke about the invitation of Merkel who made come, hundreds of thousand Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans, Erythreans, Nigerian, Pakistani
Well, you know there's a certain pattern in the Terrorist attacks on Germany and France. Wasn't really any of those nationalities.

And what non of our numbnut Politicians are willing to say is that Terrorism cannot be fought by countries themselves. We had the tightest border to the GDR for 40 years and still Stasi financed Red Army Faction Terror for almost as long. It's cooperation and alignment. Share information, share strategies, get a common ground to deal with issues.
Our Police is federally organized, which has proven to be probably the biggest issue in that whole mess. Now Berlin is blaming Westphalia and vice versa instead of working on solutions.

French productivity, quality and cost of labour is not worse than german one btw. (did I mention I traveled to about a dozen of our factories across Europe - UK to Ukraine to Greece?)
Maybe too much Paris-centric economy. The rest of the country is left behind in terms of economic development. But that's just guessing.
 
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The queen hasn't used all that much in recent days.
Doesn't mean by the line of succession you can't end up with someone who would.

-calls on the MP most able to form a government to do so
- Veto over bills: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/14/secret-papers-royals-veto-bills

- - - Updated - - -



Le Magreb, ce n'est pas une creation allemande, mon ami.

I'm well aware that the Queen isn't purely ceremonial. It well known that the armed forces swear allegiance to her for example. It is all part of the checks and balances of our system. Interestingly the only thing that article said she ever vetoed is the government trying to create an act that let the government use the armed forces without her permission... Good. All part of the checks and balances of the system.

I can tell you 100% if there was a vote on keeping monarchy tomorrow it would be to keep it. Our unelected head of state remains irrelevant to this. If the Queen decided what government policy was going to be and set the agenda etc then you would have a point, but she doesn't.
 
I do not link the terrorism with the immigration. I am simply saying that there is too much immigration in Europe
Well .. then we should help fixing the issues that make people immigrate here. Poverty, war, repression. They barely come here for the nice weather or the good food.
For some obscure reason, people who'd never leave their own country seem to think other people leave their own country for the merry adventure and wouldn't prefer to stay "at home" in their own cultural surrounding.

Europe has a 2000+ year long history of bullying and exploiting the world for ressources. (ok, the US joined us quite recently)
 
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There is almost no accountability to voters in the EU. In our rubbish system at least a party sets out what it wants to do and I get to vote for an MP in that party and they do what they say or I might not vote for them. In the EU my MEP gets to vote on issues but they don't get to say what they are and I've got no way of picking who calls the shots or they way the EU is heading. It does what it wants. We have absolutely no say in the direction it takes, we can't even vote for any of the presidents. For me that democracy deficit is something I cannot get past and short of an economic catastrophe I'm willing to take the risk.

Btw I'm not saying that a benevolent dictator could be the best form of government. I am saying that the Queen as dictator would be the best form of government

The double-think here... I just can't.
 
Well I wasn't being entirely serious. I really do greatly admire and respect the Queen and when you consider how long she had been head of state and how much knowledge and experience she has, I think she would do a far FAR better job of leading the country than those we get to elect. The only way that could happen is she sacked the government and became a dictator, but it would never happen anyway because there is no way she would do something like that.

And cheers Spacebaboy [smile]

I explained what I meant. The the Queen as PM is impossible.
 
Break-up of the EU is possible. The austerity imposed by the Germany, the migratory submersion incited by the Germany, unemployment of mass, the technocratic drift of the EU, the lack of transparency and democracy of the EU. All this can not last forever. Merckel and Juncker and all their teams of irresponsible technocrats must leave

Yep the EU is getting worse and worse from one crisis to the next.
 
German vice-chancellor Sigmar Gabriel says break-up of EU no longer 'unthinkable' [up] :cool:

Politician says Angela Merkel needs to give some ground to France in order to prevent the anti-EU Marine Le Pen becoming president

Germany's insistence on austerity in the euro zone has left Europe more divided than ever and a break-up of the European Union is no longer inconceivable, German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel told Der Spiegel magazine.

Gabriel, whose Social Democrats (SPD) are junior partner to Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives in her ruling grand coalition, said strenuous efforts by countries like France and Italy to reduce their fiscal deficits came with political risks.

"I once asked the chancellor, what would be more costly for Germany: for France to be allowed to have half a percentage point more deficit, or for Marine Le Pen to become president?" he said, referring to the leader of the far-right National Front.

"Until today, she still owes me an answer," added Gabriel, whose SPD favours a greater focus on investment while Merkel's conservatives put more emphasis on fiscal discipline as a foundation for economic prosperity.

The SPD is expected to choose Gabriel, their long-standing chairman who is also economy minister, to run against Merkel for chancellor in September's federal election, senior party sources said on Thursday.

Asked if he really believed he could win more votes by transferring more German money to other EU countries, Gabriel replied: "I know that this discussion is extremely unpopular."

"But I also know about the state of the EU. It is no longer unthinkable that it breaks apart," he said in the interview, published on Saturday.

Link.


criticalreader
"Because Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the European community – economically and politically." Very nice for Germany, but not sustainable if the rest of Europe is circling the plughole, economically speaking.

The EU needs to be reformed from the ground up, as the present stifling dogmas of "more Europe" are in full contradiction with the very cultural foundations and differences that make Europe so unique. Attempting to force all Europeans into an ideological mold with the brutal force of the EU-newspeak sledgehammer, where nothing must ever be questioned, has failed miserably. The EU Politburo has turned Europe into a non-democratic continent, with millions of citizens struggling to make ends meet, while the banks and large corporations thrive. This is not realistic.

Hoping that all Europeans will be as productive and quality conscious as Fritz the German is a hopeless illusion. The real question is what was wrong with the former European Economic Community (EEC) structure, which paved the way to free trade, but also enabled its European member countries to retain national sovereignty, and above all, control of their respective national economies without the straitjacket of a single currency. Incredibly, it was France that imposed the Euro on Germany, and was thus granted to proceed with reunification. French economic policy is now largely decided in Berlin, probably not what France expected to see. German control without the sound of marching soldiers.

Any deficit leeway now granted to France, in a bid to prevent Mrs Le Pen from being elected, would come far too late: after the successive failure of presidents Sarkozy and Hollande, and unemployment numbers nudging the 6-million mark, French voters are going to ensure that the next elected president and government implement changes to soften their plight - in spite of the fact that 56% (!) of French GDP is linked to government services. Chances are that a majority of French citizens would now vote to leave the EU if a referendum were to be held. The Italians would doubtlessly do likewise. The German locomotive is powering along like a Porsche, but the wagons are becoming detached one after the other, Mr Gabriel.

Only a return to a structure similar to that of the former EEC may allow the post-1945 European project of economic and political cooperation, aimed at preventing future wars, to survive. The old guard in Brussels (Juncker et al.) need to be replaced ASAP, with key decision-making powers restored to the member countries. Above all, the interests of the average European citizens need to be taken into account: more democracy, please! Trying to insist on the EU being progressively transformed into a new form of "EUSSR" will indeed fail sooner than many among the political elites would like to think. Maybe "less Europe" is the correct answer?

2017 thus needs to be a year of action, Mr Gabriel. One can only hope that Mrs Merkel is voted out of office after the next elections in Germany. She is one of the key reasons why a majority of British voters opted for Brexit.

Don't worry, Sigmar Gabriel is a complete idiot, you can savely ignore everything spewing out of his mouth. He's like some kind of weird homunculus cursing the SPD to eternal defeat until he is finally gone.
 
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