Getting EXTREMELY frustrated with a certain interdiction exploit

[deathmagnet]

Apologies for the flame-war-ey title, but I've grown increasingly annoyed over the past few days and I need to vent. I even created a forum account to post.

So I'm a pirate operating in Yembo. It's a tough, poorly paying career fraught with danger and risk (I suppose that's the price for player interaction and good gameplay...).

However, more and more lately, CMDRs (always in type 6s for some reason) have been SUBMITTING to my interdiction, and then IMMEDIATELY supercruising away, bypassing the usual interdiction FSD cooldown and making them virtually impossible to do more than a few points of hull damage to.

Just now, I interdicted the same commander 3 times. The first time, they submitted, and I told them to cut their engines. They didn't respond, merely charged their FSD. I attacked them in response, but failed to get their shields down.

I immediately followed them to supercruise, and had to follow them for 400LS before I could catch up and interdict again. Once more, they submitted, and once more, they immediately boosted away and charged their FSD. This time, I opened fire immediately, managing to do 10-20% damage before they jumped again.

Once more I followed, once more I interdicted, and yup you guessed it once more they submitted. This was only 20Mm from the station so I didn't even bother with the warning, blasting at their shields immediately. I had just managed to get them down again before they vanished.

I even followed them to the damn station, but was too late, they slid through the docking port just as I got in range. I proceeded to camp outside the station with thrusters off and temp at 27% to hide my wanted status for a good 5-10 mins, but they either retreated back to Solo or logged off for the night.

Needless to say, I am extremely annoyed and tired of the fact that "submitting" to interdiction lets you leave almost as soon as you arrive. I know many of you will say "get gud" or "get a faster/masslocking ship" but I don't want to grind to play at pirate whilst losing money. Ever since my first million credits, I have only pirated. It should be a career not an expensive hobby.

But I digress. My Cobra is nearly the fastest ship with weapons possible (455m/s boost speed) and heavily armed. Should it really be impossible for me to pose any threat to a weaponless mid-tier trader? (whose ship, btw, likely costs far less than my 3mil). All while making more money in one trip than I do in an evening!

PLEASE Frontier, do something about this ridiculous exploit. And traders who play in open: please don't use it! If you don't want to face pirates, that's fine, just don't trade in the most populated system in the game in Open mode!

I am sorry but i don't feel sorry for you. Trade ships are utterly defenseless. If they couldn't submit it is a guaranteed death more or less. But just because they can FSD away doesn't mean you can't kill them. I got pulled over by a python in my T7. I used the same strategy to run away and it worked for the first 3 times. The 4th time i had a lapse in judgement and got caught in the cooldown. I was still able to jump but wait no i wasn't. the CMDR was smart enough to kill my thrusters. There's other things that you could do to be more successful but i ain't going to tell you. I am sure there will be plenty pirate CMDR's willing to share that info. And if you want a fight pull over a clipper or python that is doing some trading. I am sure you will readily get one.

 

[kaaldesh]

How the hell are you losing 15 million? Even 200t of palladium is only a few million! Is it due to an expensive ship?

Anaconda, 9.9 million rebuy (D class everything but FSD and A4 shields) moderate weaponry. Nothing special
448t cargo. 13k per palladium * 448 cargo = 5,824,000
9.9m + 5.824m = 15.724million... and this does not factor in the sell price of the palladium which would be much higher

If so that is a large ship balance issue, not a trading/pirate issue, and should be fixed separately (increased income in larger ships or decreased costs)

I disagree that it is irrelevant to this issue. Decreasing the insane rebuy almost single-handedly fixes the trading/pirate issue... almost. Because now traders wouldn't lose so much by being pirated.

You see, we need a very few things for pvp to really take off in this game.

1) Incentive to pirate​

2) Incentive to be pirated (or at least very limited disincentives)​

There are good debates on how to accomplish this, but those 2 things are crucial to all arguments.

-Thanks to all those fine CMDRS with the kind words regarding my original reply

 

[deathmagnet]

Figola's Escort Wing Services LLC.

Currently based at Lave we at Figolas offer the modern trader an option. No longer will you be alone in the galaxy when you hire at Figolas.

Shipping 440Ts of gold in a type 9, why not bring along a battle wing of Connies.

Call today for intro rates starting at 5%

Might take you up on that once wings comes out maybe sooner. If i haven't sent the friend request before you can send one. T9 with 404T (so i don't pop easy). Average 3.5+ mil and hour.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I agree with the idea that cooldown not being reduced for submitting. Its a simple change that addresses the main problem.

I think the bigger problem is with traders. The max cargo capacity and sacrifice defence and then complain they get attacked. Stick some mines and turrets on the old space cow and let the pirate eat those while you run.

The problem is that the T6 and T7 have horrible hardpoints. 2 small hardpoints on a T6 and 4 on a T7, against even a practically incompetent pilot in an Asp who can barely fly straight, will only result in the T6/7 going down.

If the FSD cooldown were to be lengthened, I'd want some better weapons on those things. Their shields are like wet toilet paper and their hulls are made of porcelain. It's very likely that even minor changes in the interdiction mechanic will just make it pirate insta-win. It's really tough to balance the current mechanic because the trading ships are so weak; they need sharper teeth.

 

[VATrevelyan]

Why not allow submission, drop out with no to little damage and with flight control as before, but have the extended drive cooldown that exists with a successful interception? It'd give a pirate with decent kit good odds to a kill and/or time to loot, and allow a trader or explorer time to consider their options. And if they are in a fast ship like a Cobra, they can always leg it.

EDIT: Er, it seems some people have beaten me to this.

I would say, since I have the opportunity, that the T6 and T7 could have the shield gens in their largest slots, then they are fairly potent. But then traders would have to forego a fair amount of cargo space as a trade-off.

 

[Tiwaz]

With a thread this big it's been explained many times before. It's helpful to actually read or at least skim it before commenting.

Read the whole thread and it has NOT been explained. It has been just crying that it is unfair.

Again, OP WAS ABLE TO BRING DOWN THE SHIELDS! He had time to cause damage. IF he had been about pirating, he would have had all the time in the world to limpet the trader and head off. But problem is not about getting loot is it, it is about being able to kill traders at will without them having any escape. Because that is what you would get if mechanism was changed.

As it is, determined pirate (as proven by op) CAN rob trader. They just do not have necessarily time to MURDER trader. Add more time in hands of OP in form of any delay to escape and trader would have been murdered. Because that was his goal, else he would have used limpets.

 

[Cmdr Kurnek]

Anaconda, 9.9 million rebuy (D class everything but FSD and A4 shields) moderate weaponry. Nothing special
448t cargo. 13k per palladium * 448 cargo = 5,824,000
9.9m + 5.824m = 15.724million... and this does not factor in the sell price of the palladium which would be much higher



I disagree that it is irrelevant to this issue. Decreasing the insane rebuy almost single-handedly fixes the trading/pirate issue... almost. Because now traders wouldn't lose so much by being pirated.

You see, we need a very few things for pvp to really take off in this game.

1) Incentive to pirate​

2) Incentive to be pirated (or at least very limited disincentives)​

There are good debates on how to accomplish this, but those 2 things are crucial to all arguments.

-Thanks to all those fine CMDRS with the kind words regarding my original reply

I apologise if I sounded aggressive, I wasn't meaning to, I was simply surprised at the cost!

And you admitted yourself fixing the insane rebuy would almost fix the problem. The main issue in piracy seems to be a lack of balance between income and rebuy cost at the higher tier of ship. Balancing that more fairly (either by increasing income or reducing rebuy), combined with a higher penalty for murder and perhaps an easier way to use limpets (I haven't pirated myself, but I hear they are awkward and near impossible to use), would allow pirates the option of taking ONLY the cargo while providing a heavy incentive to NOT murder the player. Any true pirate would jump at that option, as it allows them to near guarantee some cargo without risking a hefty and attractive bounty on their heads.

Of course a higher murder bounty would only really be effective if new ways of tracking players with bounties was put in the game, such as a MASSIVELY expanded version of the 'top 5 bounties' lists that showed last known location, but also online status of a far wider range of bounties (or even all player bounties in existence, bounties are ususally advertised!). Not only would this counter those griefers who choose to murder, it would also fix player bounty hunting to some extent to boot.

 

[EddyRockSteady]

And you admitted yourself fixing the insane rebuy would almost fix the problem....

Oh most definitely.

My Anaconda rebuy comes in at 23 million, give or take a couple of pennies. Personally I blame the ridiculous 'insurance' mechanic. How about a halfway realistic insurance mechanic based on RL principles, ie I pay X amount of credits per month for insurance to my vessels with a nominal excess payable upon a successful claim, with said excess amount capped at, let's say 1 million credits. In other words, excess value scales up to max. Coupled with that, cargo insurance as well, with same principles finding applicability, ie monthly fee and capped excess.

2 very simple principles/suggestions which would immediately solve the issue. With nothing much to lose, I'll happily play the reluctant possum.

Why?

Why do you think traders run and smaller ship pilots gank? Not because we are scared of fighting. It's solely as a result of the credit loss sustained. Pirates lose nothing compared to the Trader they end. And don't tell me it's just credits and cost nothing etc etc etc......that's why I have every ship in the game A-spec'd and others only a Cobra/Viper that they pirate with: It's a helluva lot of time, effort and sometimes frustration to become a Tycoon with assets close to a Billion credits and we're not about to widdle it away by playing possum every time someone hits their interdictor button.

I can guarantee you that whilst not the complete solution, loss scale-ability will probably go 90% towards solving the issue. Let's wait and see what happens. Until then, run like the clappers, hemorrhaging chaff and mines as you go.

 

[Wyke]

Apologies for the flame-war-ey title, but I've grown increasingly annoyed over the past few days and I need to vent. I even created a forum account to post.

So I'm a pirate operating in Yembo. It's a tough, poorly paying career fraught with danger and risk (I suppose that's the price for player interaction and good gameplay...).

However, more and more lately, CMDRs (always in type 6s for some reason) have been SUBMITTING to my interdiction, and then IMMEDIATELY supercruising away, bypassing the usual interdiction FSD cooldown and making them virtually impossible to do more than a few points of hull damage to.

Just now, I interdicted the same commander 3 times. The first time, they submitted, and I told them to cut their engines. They didn't respond, merely charged their FSD. I attacked them in response, but failed to get their shields down.

I immediately followed them to supercruise, and had to follow them for 400LS before I could catch up and interdict again. Once more, they submitted, and once more, they immediately boosted away and charged their FSD. This time, I opened fire immediately, managing to do 10-20% damage before they jumped again.

Once more I followed, once more I interdicted, and yup you guessed it once more they submitted. This was only 20Mm from the station so I didn't even bother with the warning, blasting at their shields immediately. I had just managed to get them down again before they vanished.

I even followed them to the damn station, but was too late, they slid through the docking port just as I got in range. I proceeded to camp outside the station with thrusters off and temp at 27% to hide my wanted status for a good 5-10 mins, but they either retreated back to Solo or logged off for the night.

Needless to say, I am extremely annoyed and tired of the fact that "submitting" to interdiction lets you leave almost as soon as you arrive. I know many of you will say "get gud" or "get a faster/masslocking ship" but I don't want to grind to play at pirate whilst losing money. Ever since my first million credits, I have only pirated. It should be a career not an expensive hobby.

But I digress. My Cobra is nearly the fastest ship with weapons possible (455m/s boost speed) and heavily armed. Should it really be impossible for me to pose any threat to a weaponless mid-tier trader? (whose ship, btw, likely costs far less than my 3mil). All while making more money in one trip than I do in an evening!

PLEASE Frontier, do something about this ridiculous exploit. And traders who play in open: please don't use it! If you don't want to face pirates, that's fine, just don't trade in the most populated system in the game in Open mode!

Funny is it not. When a pirate is rubbish at his job, it the other players or the developers fault. Yet when pirates exploit a game system that even many of them acknowledge as being broken it just 'colourful role play'

 

[Logan 5]

Apologies for the flame-war-ey title, but I've grown increasingly annoyed over the past few days and I need to vent. I even created a forum account to post.

So I'm a pirate operating in Yembo. It's a tough, poorly paying career fraught with danger and risk (I suppose that's the price for player interaction and good gameplay...).

However, more and more lately, CMDRs (always in type 6s for some reason) have been SUBMITTING to my interdiction, and then IMMEDIATELY supercruising away, bypassing the usual interdiction FSD cooldown and making them virtually impossible to do more than a few points of hull damage to.

Just now, I interdicted the same commander 3 times. The first time, they submitted, and I told them to cut their engines. They didn't respond, merely charged their FSD. I attacked them in response, but failed to get their shields down.

I immediately followed them to supercruise, and had to follow them for 400LS before I could catch up and interdict again. Once more, they submitted, and once more, they immediately boosted away and charged their FSD. This time, I opened fire immediately, managing to do 10-20% damage before they jumped again.

Once more I followed, once more I interdicted, and yup you guessed it once more they submitted. This was only 20Mm from the station so I didn't even bother with the warning, blasting at their shields immediately. I had just managed to get them down again before they vanished.

I even followed them to the damn station, but was too late, they slid through the docking port just as I got in range. I proceeded to camp outside the station with thrusters off and temp at 27% to hide my wanted status for a good 5-10 mins, but they either retreated back to Solo or logged off for the night.

Needless to say, I am extremely annoyed and tired of the fact that "submitting" to interdiction lets you leave almost as soon as you arrive. I know many of you will say "get gud" or "get a faster/masslocking ship" but I don't want to grind to play at pirate whilst losing money. Ever since my first million credits, I have only pirated. It should be a career not an expensive hobby.

But I digress. My Cobra is nearly the fastest ship with weapons possible (455m/s boost speed) and heavily armed. Should it really be impossible for me to pose any threat to a weaponless mid-tier trader? (whose ship, btw, likely costs far less than my 3mil). All while making more money in one trip than I do in an evening!

PLEASE Frontier, do something about this ridiculous exploit. And traders who play in open: please don't use it! If you don't want to face pirates, that's fine, just don't trade in the most populated system in the game in Open mode!

"...and I told them to cut their engines" - Try asking nicely?

Always think "What would the Dread Pirate Roberts do" and you'll be a better and far happier Pirate! ;-)

 

[Derath]

I am sorry but i don't feel sorry for you. Trade ships are utterly defenseless. If they couldn't submit it is a guaranteed death more or less. But just because they can FSD away doesn't mean you can't kill them. I got pulled over by a python in my T7. I used the same strategy to run away and it worked for the first 3 times. The 4th time i had a lapse in judgement and got caught in the cooldown. I was still able to jump but wait no i wasn't. the CMDR was smart enough to kill my thrusters. There's other things that you could do to be more successful but i ain't going to tell you. I am sure there will be plenty pirate CMDR's willing to share that info. And if you want a fight pull over a clipper or python that is doing some trading. I am sure you will readily get one.

this doesn't work on a python, either he was grossly incompetent or.... tbh it'd have to go all the way down to a cobra for this to actually work. T7's are slow and easily mass locked you can't really use this apparent "exploit" to stop them leaving lol, i don't have much sympathy for cobra pirates I think they should be pirating haulers/adders/other cobras, as you can only pirate cobras in a cobra. If you want to do T6/T7 you need a bigger ship, seems fair to me.

Edit: And yes, it should be impossible for you to pirate mid tier ships in a 455 cobra for that exact reason, cobras cannot be killed if flown competently by anything that isn't a clipper or another cobra that means the risk trade-off just isn't there.

 

[deathmagnet]

The problem is that the T6 and T7 have horrible hardpoints. 2 small hardpoints on a T6 and 4 on a T7, against even a practically incompetent pilot in an Asp who can barely fly straight, will only result in the T6/7 going down.

If the FSD cooldown were to be lengthened, I'd want some better weapons on those things. Their shields are like wet toilet paper and their hulls are made of porcelain. It's very likely that even minor changes in the interdiction mechanic will just make it pirate insta-win. It's really tough to balance the current mechanic because the trading ships are so weak; they need sharper teeth.

The t9 isn't much better with the hard points either. you get 2 facing forward. That is just stupid. If its a trade vessel all the hard points should be on top or bottom (i would prefer balanced top and bottom). There is no reason a T9 needs forward facing hard points. And its not for the mining. Your mining lasers would work just fine placed on either top or bottom of the ship. And besides. 95% of the time your RUNNING from the interdictor when your rocking a T9. Forward facing hardpoints are almost useless.

 

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Oh most definitely.

My Anaconda rebuy comes in at 23 million, give or take a couple of pennies. Personally I blame the ridiculous 'insurance' mechanic. How about a halfway realistic insurance mechanic based on RL principles, ie I pay X amount of credits per month for insurance to my vessels with a nominal excess payable upon a successful claim, with said excess amount capped at, let's say 1 million credits. In other words, excess value scales up to max. Coupled with that, cargo insurance as well, with same principles finding applicability, ie monthly fee and capped excess.

2 very simple principles/suggestions which would immediately solve the issue. With nothing much to lose, I'll happily play the reluctant possum.

Why?

Why do you think traders run and smaller ship pilots gank? Not because we are scared of fighting. It's solely as a result of the credit loss sustained. Pirates lose nothing compared to the Trader they end. And don't tell me it's just credits and cost nothing etc etc etc......that's why I have every ship in the game A-spec'd and others only a Cobra/Viper that they pirate with: It's a helluva lot of time, effort and sometimes frustration to become a Tycoon with assets close to a Billion credits and we're not about to widdle it away by playing possum every time someone hits their interdictor button.

I can guarantee you that whilst not the complete solution, loss scale-ability will probably go 90% towards solving the issue. Let's wait and see what happens. Until then, run like the clappers, hemorrhaging chaff and mines as you go.

If after a comparatively short period of time (in terms of the total expected 'shelf life' of the game) you already have all the ships A specced and a billion credits then it suggests to me that the risks if anything need to be increased so it is not so easy to make such swift progress.

 

[EddyRockSteady]

If after a comparatively short period of time (in terms of the total expected 'shelf life' of the game) you already have all the ships A specced and a billion credits then it suggests to me that the risks if anything need to be increased so it is not so easy to make such swift progress.

If I sell all my ships my credits will be a billion credits, give or take. I do not have all ships and a billion credits. Been playing since Gamma. People have hit triple Elite status already so my progress is not swift by any means

 

[ChaosCloud]

Oh most definitely.

My Anaconda rebuy comes in at 23 million, give or take a couple of pennies. Personally I blame the ridiculous 'insurance' mechanic. How about a halfway realistic insurance mechanic based on RL principles, ie I pay X amount of credits per month for insurance to my vessels with a nominal excess payable upon a successful claim, with said excess amount capped at, let's say 1 million credits. In other words, excess value scales up to max. Coupled with that, cargo insurance as well, with same principles finding applicability, ie monthly fee and capped excess.

2 very simple principles/suggestions which would immediately solve the issue. With nothing much to lose, I'll happily play the reluctant possum.

Why?

Why do you think traders run and smaller ship pilots gank? Not because we are scared of fighting. It's solely as a result of the credit loss sustained. Pirates lose nothing compared to the Trader they end. And don't tell me it's just credits and cost nothing etc etc etc......that's why I have every ship in the game A-spec'd and others only a Cobra/Viper that they pirate with: It's a helluva lot of time, effort and sometimes frustration to become a Tycoon with assets close to a Billion credits and we're not about to widdle it away by playing possum every time someone hits their interdictor button.

I can guarantee you that whilst not the complete solution, loss scale-ability will probably go 90% towards solving the issue. Let's wait and see what happens. Until then, run like the clappers, hemorrhaging chaff and mines as you go.

That wouldn't solve the problem of people in stronger ships annihilating weaker ones, it might just make it worse because the stronger more expensive ships suddenly are way less to lose should you screw up, like blowing up the trader but being too slow to escape the feds.

The main problem with the rebuy cost is that you can't really change it as it could go bad in both directions: make it even more costly and people would stop bothering with the bigger ships as they'd just not be worth the risk of the hundreds of hours of trading needed to be done for them. I for example already stop at the ASP because it's integrity repair is insane.
Lower them and people might stop caring about losing then and go guns blazing on helpless targets even more. If a nuthead goes blazing on literally everything in a Sidey, meh. Let him be able to do the same in Cobra for the same rebuy costs for example and you'll have one hell of a party.

Yes, it might solve itself by bringing up more bounty hunters too, or maybe not.


What could change something was brought up a bit earlier which is way higher penalties for killing harmless players like bounty free or extremely low bounty, around 1~2k (everyone had feds fly into your shots at one point...).
Robbing a trader of his cargo hurts him already more than enough given you have to pay ATLEAST 5 times of the profit you'd have made per ton. Losing that alone is already bad enough that you don't also need to get blown up on top.

 

[kaaldesh]

That wouldn't solve the problem of people in stronger ships annihilating weaker ones

I'm with you on most of your other points, but I think this part of your reply is a good thing to have. People in stronger ships should be annihilating weaker ones. If they are geared with shields and weapons of course and not just trading.

 

[kaaldesh]

I apologise if I sounded aggressive, I wasn't meaning to, I was simply surprised at the cost!

No worries, thanks for the clarification!

And you admitted yourself fixing the insane rebuy would almost fix the problem. The main issue in piracy seems to be a lack of balance between income and rebuy cost at the higher tier of ship. Balancing that more fairly (either by increasing income or reducing rebuy), combined with a higher penalty for murder and perhaps an easier way to use limpets (I haven't pirated myself, but I hear they are awkward and near impossible to use), would allow pirates the option of taking ONLY the cargo while providing a heavy incentive to NOT murder the player. Any true pirate would jump at that option, as it allows them to near guarantee some cargo without risking a hefty and attractive bounty on their heads.

Of course a higher murder bounty would only really be effective if new ways of tracking players with bounties was put in the game, such as a MASSIVELY expanded version of the 'top 5 bounties' lists that showed last known location, but also online status of a far wider range of bounties (or even all player bounties in existence, bounties are ususally advertised!). Not only would this counter those griefers who choose to murder, it would also fix player bounty hunting to some extent to boot.

Right, everything you just said is what I was saying -except I also said to have a higher cooldown so the fights would last longer which would help the pirate.

 

[deathmagnet]

Oh most definitely.

My Anaconda rebuy comes in at 23 million, give or take a couple of pennies. Personally I blame the ridiculous 'insurance' mechanic. How about a halfway realistic insurance mechanic based on RL principles, ie I pay X amount of credits per month for insurance to my vessels with a nominal excess payable upon a successful claim, with said excess amount capped at, let's say 1 million credits. In other words, excess value scales up to max. Coupled with that, cargo insurance as well, with same principles finding applicability, ie monthly fee and capped excess.

2 very simple principles/suggestions which would immediately solve the issue. With nothing much to lose, I'll happily play the reluctant possum.

Why?

Why do you think traders run and smaller ship pilots gank? Not because we are scared of fighting. It's solely as a result of the credit loss sustained. Pirates lose nothing compared to the Trader they end. And don't tell me it's just credits and cost nothing etc etc etc......that's why I have every ship in the game A-spec'd and others only a Cobra/Viper that they pirate with: It's a helluva lot of time, effort and sometimes frustration to become a Tycoon with assets close to a Billion credits and we're not about to widdle it away by playing possum every time someone hits their interdictor button.

I can guarantee you that whilst not the complete solution, loss scale-ability will probably go 90% towards solving the issue. Let's wait and see what happens. Until then, run like the clappers, hemorrhaging chaff and mines as you go.

Yes it has nothing to do with being scared to fight. You put a cat in a ring with another cat and they will fight. You put a cat in a ring with a lion and the cat will run. The people running around in the cobras, clippers, ect. out gun the larger transport ships EVERY TIME. If a transport ship is able to blow up a fighting ship it is because of 1 of 2 things. 1 either the pilot in the fighting ship is completely inept or 2 he accidentally runs into to transport ship and blows up which may happen if 1 is true.

Wings being released will solve a lot of issues people are having problems with. 4 smaller ships should be able to mass lock a larger one making it hard for it to jump. Wings will also give an incentive for traders to pay for security details.