Glaives (Hunter class ships) are overpowered and...

[Uiros Ueramos]

...this is why:

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First, I would like to ask for everybody that posts opinions on this thread, to restrain itself to only talk about this matter and to have a polite approach to the situation to avoid rudeness and name-calling...

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Now that this request has been made, I can focus on the matter at hand.

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I am an average AX pilot that never got involved in killing Thargoids until the Bubble Invasion begun. The only time I had previously destroyed them was because of being attacked by Scouts when visiting the Pleaides, back in 2018. I was even hyperdicted several times there by Interceptors and I never attacked them, finding that "First Contact" experience fascinating and although the Interceptors were intimidating, they never seemed threatening.

Since early January 2023, because of the Bubble Invasion, I started developing my AX Combat skills and learned the AX procedures regarding maneuvers, ship builds and engineering, to get involved in AX CZs. I went from only destroying Scouts and running away at the sight of Interceptors, to soloing Cyclops and Basilisks with FAOFF Cold Orbiting techniques armed with just AX Missiles/MultiCannons/LR TV Beam in Space AX CZs, as well as killing Medusas and Hydras after getting Guardian Weapons and joining other CMDRs in battle.

Currently, after having killed my 3 first Glaives in a planetary AX CZ and getting interdicted by another one in space, I can safely say that Glaives (Hunter Class > surelly more variants to come), despite being somewhat more vulnerable than Interceptors, are actually more dangerous than them.

"Why is that?", you might ask incredulously. And I say it is because, in most cases, while you have two options against Scouts and Interceptors (engagement or retreat), you really only have one against the Glaives, which is to fight.

This is because Glaives (Hunter Class) have all the good capabilities of Thargoid tech without almost any of the weaknesses, contrary to the Scout or Interceptor class ships.

Let's check its characteristics:

1. Extremely Fast (CMDRs reported between 750 and 800m/s at peak speed) >>> Only dedicated highly engineered Fast Maelstrom Explorers or Pure Racers can escape by running away faster;
2. FSD Reboot Missiles >>> All targets hit are forced to fight because they are unable to Low or High Wake;
3. Mass Lock Factor of 20 >>> All ships with the exception of T10, Imperial Cutter, Federal Corvette and Anaconda are unable to Low Wake, even if they have miraculosly avoided the FSD Reboot missiles;
4. Shields >>> Almost always on (currently 90% of the time the shields are on), negating the only weakness - the hull - the Glaive might have;
5. Frequent salvos of 4x Caustic Missiles (currently salvos are launched every 5-10 seconds) >>> Ships hit are always suffering caustic damage, even if they are able to burn it off, since they are being hit all the time;
6. Frequent Lightning Attack, due to its ability to approach the CMDR at ease >>> All ships, fast or slow, are hit most of the time and get almost permanent random reboots in their modules;
7. Guardian Degeneration Field >>> Within 1,5km (?) - therefore almost always, due to its speed - all your Guardian Modules (except Guardian Hull Reinforcements that have no Integrity) get 1-2% damage/second and became useless in 60s or less;
8. Are present in Maelstrom, Control and Invasion systems, often in packs of 3, doing Hyperdictions, Interdictions and fighting in AX CZs.

So, what are the consequences of having all these abilities and no weaknesses (except weak hull, that gets negated because of its shields being always on) ?

1. Specialized Fast Maelstrom Explorer or Pure Racer builds, optimized for escaping any trouble, will have only one option which is to run (SR+HS compulsory), as long as they can be faster than 800m/s. If not, they are dead;
2. Experienced AX CMDRs, with AX Meta Builds and Guardian Weapons, have to kill them in 60s or less, high wake (very difficult) almost as fast or sacrifice Guardian Weapons to have a few AX Missiles/Multicannons in reserve to deal with them. If not, they are dead;
3. Average AX CMDRs, with Specialized Human AX Builds (exclusively AX Missiles/Multicannons), have the same options as mentioned above, except they will not suffer degeneration from their weapons but will probably react worse to the situation;
4. Newbie AX CMDRs, with unoptimized AX builds and very little experience, will be unable to escape, unable to avoid damage and get killed fast. 90% chance of death;
5. Multirole ships. Only very experienced and cool-headed CMDRs will survive (SR+HS compulsory). 95% chance of death;
6. Mission Runner ships. Only very experienced and cool-headed CMDRs will survive (SR+HS compulsory). 95% chance of death;
7. Passenger/Refugee ships. Only very experienced and cool-headed CMDRs will survive (SR+HS compulsory). 95% chance of death;
8. Trader ships. Only very experienced, cool-headed and very lucky CMDRs will survive (SR+HS compulsory). 99% chance of death;
9. Explorer ships. Only very experienced, cool-headed and very lucky CMDRs will survive (SR+HS compulsory). 99% chance of death.

If any CMDR gets Hyperdicted/Interdicted by Scouts or Interceptors, they have the choice to run or fight. A Basilisk will make running almost impossible for most ships, but there is always the possibility to High Wake and survival will depend on the skill of the CMDR.

If one gets interdicted by a Glaive you do not have much choice, because, due to the FSD Reboot missiles and very high MLF, Low Wake becomes an impossibility and High Wake almost as much, denying survivability to any other than very specific Fast Maelstrom Explorer, Pure Racer or Human AX builds piloted by very experienced CMDRs.

As such, Glaives (Hunter Class) are now effectively denying Thargoid influenced space to +90% of the builds and probably to a even bigger percentage of CDMRs.

So, after all of these problems have been exposed, what can FDev do to avoid a MASSIVE exodus of CMDRs from their beloved 2nd Thargoid War ?

Either:

1. Reduce speed of all current (Glaives) and future Hunter class ships to allow for some ships other than Fast Maelstrom Explorer/Pure Racer builds to have a chance to escape >>> 600m/s top speed;
2. Remove FSD Reboot missiles ability, to allow for some chance of High Wake to some ships other than Fast Maelstrom Explorer/Pure Racer builds;
3. Reduce frequency of shield activation so that Glaives have some time with its hull exposed;
4. Reduce frequency of salvos of 4x caustic missiles so that the CMDRs' ship is not hit every 5 seconds;
5. Reduce range and damage/second of Guardian Degeneration Field to allow for 2-3 minutes of use for Guardian Weapons.

Or:

• Make them only available in Maelstrom and Control systems. If a veteran AX CMDR wants a challenge it is that CMDRs' choice to seek for it, not to be imposed to the rest of the CMDRs who are trying to run Refugee Missions/Salvage and do not seek insane AX challenges.

This is my personal view and opinion on the matter and I know that many hardcore veterans will intervene saying "Where is the challenge after that nerf?"...

That is why I explained that such content should be, either generally available and catered to the abilities of a sufficiently large number of CMDRs, or restricted to areas where super-duper CMDRs can go and have their kicks...

Opinions on this are welcome...

EDIT: Typos and layout

 

[Martind Forlon]

Sorry, not read it all, but: with very basic AX skills I was able without much hassle kill interdicting Glaive with my Clipper used for operations in Thargoid systems. First step to dealt with Glaives is to have properly prepared ship, which imo seems fair considering a fact that commander is operating in war zone. Second step is learn how to adapt on changed situation. And not mentioning simple fact that players got already numerous tools which significantly improved theirs AX combat abilities.

Imo it is fault on cmdr part to not think how to increase survivability of theirs vessels in hostile AX encounters ... yes, it will be less comfortable to be not able use some of paper taxi builds which so far offered total safety, but personally I like challenge

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Sorry, not read it all,

Well, then why post a comment if you did not inform yourself on the problem here exposed ?

but: with very basic AX skills I was able without much hassle kill interdicting Glaive with my Clipper used for operations in Thargoid systems. First step to dealt with Glaives is to have properly prepared ship, which imo seems fair considering a fact that commander is operating in war zone. Second step is learn how to adapt on changed situation. And not mentioning simple fact that players got already numerous tools which significantly improved theirs AX combat abilities.

I agree that no unprepared ships and CMDRs should travel in Thargoid influenced space, but even the most prepared and skilled AX CMDR had to start as an inexperienced newbie AX CMDR, right?

What you wrote is not the problem exposed in my original post.

 

[Martind Forlon]

Well, then why post a comment if you did not inform yourself on the problem here exposed ?

Because is obvious from the start about what content is ...

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Because is obvious from the start about what content is ...

The title is not the text.

Do you buy stuff just checking out an image in your PC and nothing else? Or you do inform yourself all about the product before buying?

 

[Shadowsnog]

first of all glaive is new, naturally it might take some adjustments...
but i dont really think of glaive as much op. by the description of your skills i consider myself much worse pilot and i see no problem with them. in czs they usually get targeted very fast and encounter even with multiple is just an r&r for guardian modules afterwards. hyper/interdictions are easily solved by running cold.

Spoiler: ot rant

if anything is op its the regenerators range lol

 

[JerseyDevil]

I see no problem with the Galive, this is advanced war fighting not human PvE fights, only simple adjustments required. You don't enter a high level boss/dungeon and expect that your low level armor/weapons should work because you don't want to get the required gear. Part of every game, no problem seen here.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

first of all glaive is new, naturally it might take some adjustments...

Therefore my post.

but i dont really think of glaive as much op. by the description of your skills i consider myself much worse pilot and i see no problem with them. in czs they usually get targeted very fast and encounter even with multiple is just an r&r for guardian modules afterwards.

I agree that in starport / outpost / planetary AX CZs they pose less of a problem with nearby easy repair on hand.

It is quite a bit more difficult when engaging them in space AX CZs or in Hyperdiction/Interdiction, because you have to have a AFMU and a Repair Limpet Controller and being unable to repair due to the constant lightning makes it harder.

But the significant problem that I have explained in my original post, concerns the enormous speed, FSD Reboot missiles ability and the excessive frequency of shields and of salvos of 4x caustic missiles. These last two ones, coupled with the constant Lightning Attack, are great offenders because they leave no rest time for reaction.

hyper/interdictions are easily solved by running cold.

Not always , as I have experienced.

And most ships cannot run cold enough to avoid detection.

But even ones that do, cannot escape sometimes. It happened to me when I was Interdicted in my AX Challenger (3 MSC + 1 EN AX MC + 3 LR TV Beams). Although boosting with SR+HS, the Glaive kept detecting me and attacking.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

I see no problem with the Galive, this is advanced war fighting not human PvE fights, only simple adjustments required. You don't enter a high level boss/dungeon and expect that your low level armor/weapons should work because you don't want to get the required gear. Part of every game, no problem seen here.

How many have you faced and how many have you killed?

 

[GroG79]

You must have missed the days when a Cyclops was impossible to kill. Now n00bs kill them in gib boats

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

You must have missed the days when a Cyclops was impossible to kill. Now n00bs kill them in gib boats

As I have referred to in my post, I have not killed Interceptors before this last January. And I don't use "Gib Boats". Only medium ships optimized for AX Combat.

 

[Martind Forlon]

The title is not the text.

Do you buy stuff just checking out an image in your PC and nothing else? Or you do inform yourself all about the product before buying?

I read most of your post so requested nerfs were no surprise. And FDev gave first to players numerous useful tools, so adding something to Thargoids is imo perfectly fair. Not mentioning fact that players already found ways how to dealt with Glaived which naturally will be more effective with more experience. Asking for nerfs should be last resort not the first.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

The glaive should not have the guardian module neutralizing field, or be restricted to only being found in specific locations.

It is ridiculous that we have guardian weapons supposedly specialized for fighting thargoids, that take a significant amount of time and effort to get access to, that end up being completely useless and render your ship unable to do any damage within 40 seconds just because RNG decided to spawn one of these poorly implemented ships in the middle of the AX CZ that you've been methodically clearing for the last 30 minutes.

It's one thing to add new challenges to the game, it is another to mix it unavoidably with existing content that changes it in a way that makes older activities/playstyles no longer possible.

 

[Arindor]

In b4 git gud.

 

[GroG79]

As I have referred to in my post, I have not killed Interceptors before this last January. And I don't use "Gib Boats". Only medium ships optimized for AX Combat.

Let me rephrase that:

...Optimized for old AX combat

We need to learn to walk again.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

I read most of your post so requested nerfs were no surprise. And FDev gave first to players numerous useful tools, so adding something to Thargoids is imo perfectly fair.

I was quite happy to read that these new Thargoid ships were being included in the game.

What I was not happy about was the fact they are not a intermediate class vessel between Scouts and interceptors. Currently, they are above Interceptor class ships, IMO.

Not mentioning fact that players already found ways how to dealt with Glaived which naturally will be more effective with more experience. Asking for nerfs should be last resort not the first.

Therefore the several options to dial down it's abilities, not outright make them silly.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

In b4 git gud.

git gud.

Glad to be of service.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

The glaive should not have the guardian module neutralizing field

I agree entirely.

or be restricted to only being found in specific locations.

To be like it is today, it should act exclusively as a Titan Defense class ship.

It is ridiculous that we have guardian weapons supposedly specialized for fighting thargoids, that take a significant amount of time and effort to get access to, that end up being completely useless and render your ship unable to do any damage within 40 seconds just because RNG decided to spawn one of these poorly implemented ships in the middle of the AX CZ that you've been methodically clearing for the last 30 minutes.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

It's one thing to add new challenges to the game, it is another to mix it unavoidably with existing content that changes it in a way that makes older activities/playstyles no longer possible.

Precisely. I have implied in my original post that, with the Glaives, no Rescue/Trade ship will be capable of completing evacuation/supply missions in Thargoid influenced space.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

Precisely. I have implied in my original post that, with the Glaives, no Rescue/Trade ship will be capable of completing evacuation/supply missions in Thargoid influenced space.

I don't think they can mass lock a cutter, so that's at least one rescue ship that doesn't really have to worry about them.

 

[Jack Winter]

FWIW, it probably makes it hard for tourists too.