Griefing: Is it?

Right then. First up I'm making some unsubstantiated assumptions here: 'Ramming' has become a viable method of 'killing' a CMDRs ship (though not the CMDR, of course). Apparently this is a preferable method on the grounds that local (to station) enforcement agencies don't deem this a sufficient 'crime' to warrant the local station opening fire upon the rammer. On this assumption the 'rammee' has only three options: wake out, combat log, or open fire: the game is biased in favour of the 'rammer' in that options one and two mean the rammer has effectively 'won', whilst option three gets the 'rammee' a bounty on their head, and attracts the unwelcome attention of the local enforcement agency.

I went and did the 'Hutton Run' today, just because, and I did so in open play. I took a ship I could afford to lose on the expectation that all could have been lost if I'd encountered a 'griefer'. Now you should understand that I am using this somewhat derogatory term simply because it is a shorthand we all understand, however you should also understand that I knew I was entering potentially dangerous 'airspace' (space-space?), and accepted the risk. If I had been ganked well, I could always have gone in solo or private right?

The only trouble with this argument is that IRL, only the very naïve don't know where the 'dangerous' airspace is, whereas in 'Elite' the 'griefers' roam about, pretty much at will, causing mayhem as they like.

It's our problem, and one we have allowed to grow: either we become a more cohesive 'race' and actively seek to form wings of vulnerable/invulnerable craft prior to going pretty much anywhere, or we begin to 'block' players (assuming that mechanic works in the way I'd expect), leaving the 'griefers' to a Galaxy that only contains griefers. To listen/read their acclamations that all they want is a PvP world, you'd imagine this would in fact be a result they crave. But I suspect not.

There are parts of the [IRL] world today where 'griefers' are a part of everyday life. They call themselves by innocent sounding acronyms, (or perhaps we supply the acronyms). And there ARE individuals and groups making the trek to be a part of the , well I don't actually know what to call it, so let's call it action. The vast (and I do mean VAST) majority are meanwhile desperately trying to get the heck out of Dodge. The rest of the (again IRL), world is meanwhile struggling to come to terms, and wrestles daily with what should/can be done. For the most part, the world remains divided, but rest assured, long term, the aligned world (i.e. not the 'griefers') will prevail, and it is not likely to pretty, nor is it something we are likely to be proud of.

To the 'griefers': do you really, REALLY want to be identified as being of the same morality as the IRL griefers to whom I refer? Of course you don't: 'It's only a game' you cry. Yes it is. But one to which you bring your own IRL morality. And as of this moment in time, your IRL morality blows. HARD.

Nuff said.
 
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To the 'griefers': do you really, REALLY want to be identified as being of the same morality as the IRL griefers to whom I refer? Of course you don't: 'It's only a game' you cry. Yes it is. But one to which you bring your own IRL morality. And as of this moment in time, your IRL morality blows. HARD.

I certainly hope nobody brings their RL morality into a game. Games are there to let you escape reality for a while. And you should build a wall separating how the characters you play in games behave and how you behave in real life, or else your characters will all quickly feel very boring and all too familiar.
 
I don't think there is such a thing as "griefing" in this game. You can do whatever you want, but perhaps the consequences of apparently unwarranted hostile actions should have greater and immediate consequences.

However, ramming player ships to avoid getting attacked by station defenses is an EXPLOIT. You should be suspended or banned for doing it.
 

Scudmungus

Banned
Wi can chat bout what be 'griefin' wid regards to gamin an games. Dis wi can debate. Seim wid exploitin. Seim wid 'fair fightin'. Aal dese tings an den som.

Dat som be tryin to hurt oders - humans. Dat som hurtin. Dis nah fah debate. Dis be known.

Now, listen. Mi nah understandin why som hurtin. Mi maybi nah agreein why som hurtin. Dis nat makin dem nah hurt.

Question wi gat to ask: Wi wantin to encourage de hurtin of people? If games about escapin reality an havin fun, den it ok to hurt people livin reality? To try an destroy fun?

Som nah wantin to play wid oders. Aal gud. Oders do. Aal gud. Som just wantin to hurt oders. Dis nah gud. Wi wantin to encourage dis? Punish dis? Forget about dis? Maybi encourage som to 'get tough'? Maybi encourage som to 'fight'? Maybi encourage som to consider dem actions? Aal dis - be makin gud discussion.

Mi nat gat DE ANSWER. Mi aok. Game nat bout mi - bout us, gamers. Playin togeda. Wat kinda playspace wi wantin? Can we be havin? How wi gonna get dere - or stay put.

:D
 
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you do get a bounty on your head if you ram and kill a npc or player. the station WILL open fire on you. It happened to me two weeks ago when i was boosting towards a station and this npc ship dropped out of sc right in my face, no time to avoid them, i hit them, killed them in the process, next thing i know my hull is at 30% and the station is firing on me. Then i'm dead. I understand why this rule exists...but could we make it so it doesn't apply to ramming npcs? because npc's are stupid and stuff like that is unfair.
 
I don't think there is such a thing as "griefing" in this game. You can do whatever you want, but perhaps the consequences of apparently unwarranted hostile actions should have greater and immediate consequences.

However, ramming player ships to avoid getting attacked by station defenses is an EXPLOIT. You should be suspended or banned for doing it.

Ramming is an exploit that needs to be dealt with. Other than that, there is no such thing as griefing in a game with 3 game modes which are able to be switched to at any time. It is an intended mechanic designed and promoted since day one by FD. The prey ALWAYS has the option not to be prey. If you play in open you are fair game to anyone for any reason and FD don't care how many times people whine about it they gave you the ability to avoid it. Open is not a role play server. It is open season interaction between willing parties who click on open. (Except for ramming). Group is for pve interaction between commanders. Open is ANYTHING else!
 
Ramming is an exploit that needs to be dealt with. Other than that, there is no such thing as griefing in a game with 3 game modes which are able to be switched to at any time. It is an intended mechanic designed and promoted since day one by FD. The prey ALWAYS has the option not to be prey. If you play in open you are fair game to anyone for any reason and FD don't care how many times people whine about it they gave you the ability to avoid it. Open is not a role play server. It is open season interaction between willing parties who click on open. (Except for ramming). Group is for pve interaction between commanders. Open is ANYTHING else!

See, this answer is so close to my gut instinct. On the one hand you are perfectly right: nobody HAS to be 'prey'. But don't you worry about the mindset of those who wish solely to do the 'preying'?
 
See, this answer is so close to my gut instinct. On the one hand you are perfectly right: nobody HAS to be 'prey'. But don't you worry about the mindset of those who wish solely to do the 'preying'?

I wonder about those that go into Open without a prey mindset. Everyone in Open can be considered prey. You have to decide on your choice of play...hunted or hunter. Then understand the idea of failure of your decision.
 
To the 'griefers': do you really, REALLY want to be identified as being of the same morality as the IRL griefers to whom I refer? Of course you don't: 'It's only a game' you cry. Yes it is. But one to which you bring your own IRL morality. And as of this moment in time, your IRL morality blows. HARD.

I kill pilots when they have a bounty on their head. I dont know them, I dont ask them questions, I dont care what happens. I just kill them. Tiny haulers. For a few hundred cr. I am unlikely to be in favor of that in real life, trust me.
 
I kill pilots when they have a bounty on their head. I dont know them, I dont ask them questions, I dont care what happens. I just kill them. Tiny haulers. For a few hundred cr. I am unlikely to be in favor of that in real life, trust me.
But they have a bounty on their head: Valid decision to collect bounty. Not 'griefing' even by the most extreme interpretation of the term. Mind you, the fact that you feel inspired to comment on this thread calls to question your own interpretation of your own morality. :)
 
I know I'm going to regret this ..... but...

Isn't ramming the reason Hull Reinforcement packages are available? There is a counter game mechanic.

The CG's most always draw pirates... If I was one, and I'm considering it (underdog gets me every time), I'd go "Where the CMDR's are"

On the Flip side, if I was working the CG, I wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight.

My Tradeconda would be Shield Boosted with Hull Reinforced.

Or Mobious. (sp?)
Or Wing Buddies.
Or Solo.
 
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I make a clear line between griefers ( psychopaths with no goal but destruction. AKA Reavers (Firefly) ) and pirates ( wanting cargo, blockade, etc... ). In the case of groups like The Code, their intentions are usually communicated, but sometimes it can be difficult to find this. FD could help by posting the declarations of groups like The Code to GalNet as advisements in their Community Goals. This would create a much more IRL experience, AKA "No fly zones".

It's our problem, and one we have allowed to grow: either we become a more cohesive 'race' and actively seek to form wings of vulnerable/invulnerable craft prior to going pretty much anywhere, or we begin to 'block' players (assuming that mechanic works in the way I'd expect), leaving the 'griefers' to a Galaxy that only contains griefers.
A Trade Union, perhaps, that provides fighter escorts for CGs? Sure, random lone wolf traders would still fall victim, but most of the moaning right now seems to be about CG related piracy. Seems logical that the community should find it's own solution. Again ignoring true griefers, in the nine months the game has been out, hasn't anyone organized wings of escorts?
 
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I know I'm going to regret this ..... but...

Isn't ramming the reason Hull Reinforcement packages are available? There is a counter game mechanic.

The CG's most always draw pirates... If I was one, and I'm considering it (underdog gets me every time), I'd go "Where the CMDR's are"

On the Flip side, if I was working the CG, I wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight.

My Tradeconda would be Shield Boosted with Hull Reinforced.

Or Mobious. (sp?)
Or Wing Buddies.
Or Solo.
Why would you regret this? It's a valid argument. My point is that people complain about griefing (I have in the past, but my pov has changed somewhat) the thing is that from the point of view of the first arrivals at Hutton Orbital (for example). people were being 'griefed'. Once word got out that it was happening though: 'Hutton Orbital' = dangerous place, come prepared or else in solo/pvt. What about your solitary 'griefer' though? Wandering inhabited space making life miserable for innocents. Where's the balance? The game just slaps you with a few hundred cr bounty: big deal....
 
Right then. First up I'm making some unsubstantiated assumptions here: 'Ramming' has become a viable method of 'killing' a CMDRs ship (though not the CMDR, of course). Apparently this is a preferable method on the grounds that local (to station) enforcement agencies don't deem this a sufficient 'crime' to warrant the local station opening fire upon the rammer. On this assumption the 'rammee' has only three options: wake out, combat log, or open fire: the game is biased in favour of the 'rammer' in that options one and two mean the rammer has effectively 'won', whilst option three gets the 'rammee' a bounty on their head, and attracts the unwelcome attention of the local enforcement agency.

I went and did the 'Hutton Run' today, just because, and I did so in open play. I took a ship I could afford to lose on the expectation that all could have been lost if I'd encountered a 'griefer'. Now you should understand that I am using this somewhat derogatory term simply because it is a shorthand we all understand, however you should also understand that I knew I was entering potentially dangerous 'airspace' (space-space?), and accepted the risk. If I had been ganked well, I could always have gone in solo or private right?

The only trouble with this argument is that IRL, only the very naïve don't know where the 'dangerous' airspace is, whereas in 'Elite' the 'griefers' roam about, pretty much at will, causing mayhem as they like.

It's our problem, and one we have allowed to grow: either we become a more cohesive 'race' and actively seek to form wings of vulnerable/invulnerable craft prior to going pretty much anywhere, or we begin to 'block' players (assuming that mechanic works in the way I'd expect), leaving the 'griefers' to a Galaxy that only contains griefers. To listen/read their acclamations that all they want is a PvP world, you'd imagine this would in fact be a result they crave. But I suspect not.

There are parts of the [IRL] world today where 'griefers' are a part of everyday life. They call themselves by innocent sounding acronyms, (or perhaps we supply the acronyms). And there ARE individuals and groups making the trek to be a part of the , well I don't actually know what to call it, so let's call it action. The vast (and I do mean VAST) majority are meanwhile desperately trying to get the heck out of Dodge. The rest of the (again IRL), world is meanwhile struggling to come to terms, and wrestles daily with what should/can be done. For the most part, the world remains divided, but rest assured, long term, the aligned world (i.e. not the 'griefers') will prevail, and it is not likely to pretty, nor is it something we are likely to be proud of.

To the 'griefers': do you really, REALLY want to be identified as being of the same morality as the IRL griefers to whom I refer? Of course you don't: 'It's only a game' you cry. Yes it is. But one to which you bring your own IRL morality. And as of this moment in time, your IRL morality blows. HARD.

Nuff said.
Ahh...But if your in 'Open' you love to be rammed; so of course what you say makes no sense.
 
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I certainly hope nobody brings their RL morality into a game. Games are there to let you escape reality for a while. And you should build a wall separating how the characters you play in games behave and how you behave in real life, or else your characters will all quickly feel very boring and all too familiar.

I would say that the way you choose to behave in a world devoid of consequence is the truest reflection of yourself.

Being cruel in a virtual world is still being cruel.

However, there is some degree of assumption of conflict and opportunism as a part of the cooperative simulated experience we all share, so, the moral import of your avatar's behavior is not directly equivalent to the moral import of your behavior in the same situation.

But there is a difference between playing cops and robbers in space and being a total jerk, and we all know that. Just because a pilots behavior is within the intended bounds of the simulation doesn't mean that person is automatically not being a total turd bucket.

There isn't a rule in volleyball that a player can't strip naked and urinate all over the court, but nobody does that, because it's inherently anti-social behavior.

Unfortunately, anonymity in video games means that we aren't protected from inherently anti-social behavior that nobody planned for, so, we have instances where it happens anyway.

That phenomenon is known as "griefing," and although it is subjective, just like pornography, you'll know it when you see it.
 
I would say that the way you choose to behave in a world devoid of consequence is the truest reflection of yourself.

Being cruel in a virtual world is still being cruel.

Absolutely wrong, considering I'm not the one behaving: my character is. Now let's assume you're not actually playing a character but are investing yourself fully into the game to the point where there is no distinction between you and your character (like I suspect is the case for a lot of the people getting mightily upset about what others do to their virtual elite dood), you still couldn't claim such a thing as this being the 'truest' reflection of yourself. This would merely be, maybe, the person you would become if
the world were to have no rules and consequences. We know the world is very much not so for most of us, and as such that 'truest reflection' you are speaking of sounds very much like a rather hypothetical character which we will probably never get to see outside of the game.
I have played tabletop RPGs for 14 years, I have played and seen dozens of different characters played by dozens of very different people in sci fi, modern, horror and fantasy settings on top of my experience in online gaming. Somehow I have my doubts that all these chaotic evil characters were played by sociopaths. Or maybe they were sociopaths that were decidedly average people, from all trades of life, and just as nice to hang out with as anybody out there...

I must say though, game masters are the worst inconsiderate griefers.
 
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FD could help by posting the declarations of groups like The Code to GalNet as advisements in their Community Goals. This would create a much more IRL experience, AKA "No fly zones".

The problem with this approach is that the CODE blockades every CG, not out of role playing but simply because they are organized and the game doesn't effectively punish PKs. Without an EDOC group that mobilizes to protect the community from CODE, there is no effective participation in a CG in open play, there is only fighting. And for those that complain about no depth in the game, a game that is only about fighting is not a game with depth. A game that only has fighting is shallow content. So, the unintended goal of CODE is to make Elite more shallow.
 
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The problem with this approach is that the moronic CODE blockades every CG, not out of role playing but simply because they are organized and the game doesn't effectively punish PKs. Without an EDOC group that mobilizes to protect the community from CODE, there is no effective participation in a CG in open play, there is only fighting. And for those that complain about no depth in the game, a game that is only about fighting is not a game with depth. A game that only has fighting is shallow content. So, the unintended goal of CODE is to make Elite more shallow.

Absolutely wrong. What makes depth is the amount of interlocking options and their consequences that affect the player. A game can be combat centric while being deep, if the mechanics for said combat are developped enough.
ED is shallow because whatever you do has so very little real impact on the gameplay or the state of the universe (and the state of the universe has very little impact on the gameplay), not because CODE is hurting your feelings.
 
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The problem with this approach is that the moronic CODE blockades every CG, not out of role playing but simply because they are organized and the game doesn't effectively punish PKs. Without an EDOC group that mobilizes to protect the community from CODE, there is no effective participation in a CG in open play, there is only fighting. And for those that complain about no depth in the game, a game that is only about fighting is not a game with depth. A game that only has fighting is shallow content. So, the unintended goal of CODE is to make Elite more shallow.

Hah... and I thought people will be over this...

There's this thing called getting a group together to occupy us while the traders fly relatively safely by...

If anything we are enriching the game...

Edit:

I just realized I gained a whole 1.0 increase on my post by day count from this whole Hutton incident, I'm impressed by myself.
 
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