Grind - can we solve the problem?

[Chris Simon]

I don' think this problem can be solved, to be honest.

I've seen games with engaging stories, beautiful worlds and balanced game mechanics, yet people would still grind to get that next best thing, rather than let the game flow and enjoy the ride.
There are people who grind, and there are people who don't. It's as simple as that. It's a choice you make, not the game.

 

[William H. Bonney]

the game is the same if you play for 5 hours a week, or 5 hours a night. if it was setup to please the folk who play for 5 hours a week, the 5 hour a night folk would get bored pretty quickly.

TL;DR: you can please some of the folk some of the time, blah blah, blah.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Log in to any ship.

You'd still have to do the things to obtain, equip, and upgrade it.
But once you've done that, you can take it to where it is useful.

Most importantly, you can leave it there if you decide to do something else for a while.
This doesn't change the gameplay, it just minimizes the time required to change gameplay style.

Some other mods required to close some exploit loopholes with this.

 

[Skeloton]

Yes, one small thing they can do is a reduction and/or more control of the RNG we currently face.

For example, add a scanning minigame or at least a sensor/scanner function to check for USS's at the press of a button. So players don't just wander about and stumble upon them. Anything to make majority of the RNG "Gameplay" less passive and more active.

 

[Maka Gucci]

I don' think this problem can be solved, to be honest.

I've seen games with engaging stories, beautiful worlds and balanced game mechanics, yet people would still grind to get that next best thing, rather than let the game flow and enjoy the ride.
There are people who grind, and there are people who don't. It's as simple as that. It's a choice you make, not the game.

I know what you mean, but people don't complain about the grind so much when it comes to The Witcher, Dark Souls, or even flippin Minecraft.. There is an objective understanding of what grind is, from a game designers point of view, and this game has heaps of it. Objectively.

Spoiler

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Bric...g_in_Games.php

A Design Definition of Grinding

For a game designer, grinding can be defined as a part of the game that has both:

Incredibly strong Long Term Incentive to keep the player going forward
Base Mechanics and Punishment and Reward Systems that have already been mastered by the player

In a grind, the player wants to keep going. This is probably because they have already put a substantial amount of effort into the game, and they would like to see it through to the end. If a player has been planting veggies in FarmVille for weeks, and they are very close to being able to afford the barn, then they will be compelled to continue in order to make their previous effort worthwhile. This is an incredibly strong Long Term Incentive; a reward that will come to them in the future in exchange for action in the present.

But a powerful Long Term Incentive on its own doesn’t make it a grind. In addition the player must be performing the same actions over and over, actions that they have already mastered. Walking down a short hallway and opening a single door to find your friend isn’t a grind. Walking down the hallway for 30 minutes and then opening no less than 10 doors is a grind, because you will have already masted the activity long before you complete the challenge.

The new guardian blue prints are a great example of this. Took me about 5 or so hours to kit out the ship, get over there, collect enough mats, work out the puzzle and get a blue print. It was fun, challenging, atmospheric. But they can't stop there, this is elite. I have to do it another 7 times, for one weapon. Hours tacked on, that were not challenging, interesting.. or even atmospheric anymore. Just repetitive, walking down a hall way, repeatedly opening doors, to finally unlock the goal.

It is a problem, that could be mitigated, but certainly won't be if we pretend it's not even a problem at all.

 

[Maro-Val]

Procedural generation game. Cant do without grind.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

I don' think this problem can be solved, to be honest.

I've seen games with engaging stories, beautiful worlds and balanced game mechanics, yet people would still grind to get that next best thing, rather than let the game flow and enjoy the ride.
There are people who grind, and there are people who don't. It's as simple as that. It's a choice you make, not the game.

No, there's a simple solution. Let the player play the way they want to play. Whatever players want to do reward them with progress as they engage in the game.

Never force the player to do X to progress.

Generally, what we're talking about is a progression system. No need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Skeloton]

It is a problem, that could be mitigated, but certainly won't be if we pretend it's not even a problem at all.

A grind can be concealed. In the Witcher(mainly the 3rd, rather not talk about the 1st one) and Dark Souls, its concealed behind engaging gameplay and/or narrative. Personally, while i currently enjoy smashing pirates in my new chieftain for this CG, i find most of the remaining gameplay to be unengaging. It often feels like stuff is happening without my input. "Tasked with killing a set number of ships", end up sitting around scanning everything that passes by hoping you. "Find this salvage", wander aimlessly in space for a USS.

 

[Chris Simon]

I know what you mean, but people don't complain about the grind so much when it comes to The Witcher, Dark Souls, or even flippin Minecraft.. There is an objective understanding of what grind is, from a game designers point of view, and this game has heaps of it. Objectively.

Spoiler

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Bric...g_in_Games.php

A Design Definition of Grinding

For a game designer, grinding can be defined as a part of the game that has both:

Incredibly strong Long Term Incentive to keep the player going forward
Base Mechanics and Punishment and Reward Systems that have already been mastered by the player

In a grind, the player wants to keep going. This is probably because they have already put a substantial amount of effort into the game, and they would like to see it through to the end. If a player has been planting veggies in FarmVille for weeks, and they are very close to being able to afford the barn, then they will be compelled to continue in order to make their previous effort worthwhile. This is an incredibly strong Long Term Incentive; a reward that will come to them in the future in exchange for action in the present.

But a powerful Long Term Incentive on its own doesn’t make it a grind. In addition the player must be performing the same actions over and over, actions that they have already mastered. Walking down a short hallway and opening a single door to find your friend isn’t a grind. Walking down the hallway for 30 minutes and then opening no less than 10 doors is a grind, because you will have already masted the activity long before you complete the challenge.

The new guardian blue prints are a great example of this. Took me about 5 or so hours to kit out the ship, get over there, collect enough mats, work out the puzzle and get a blue print. It was fun, challenging, atmospheric. But they can't stop there, this is elite. I have to do it another 7 times, for one weapon. Hours tacked on, that were not challenging, interesting.. or even atmospheric anymore. Just repetitive, walking down a hall way, repeatedly opening doors, to finally unlock the goal.

It is a problem, that could be mitigated, but certainly won't be if we pretend it's not even a problem at all.

Minecraft is the only fair comparison, imho. Both Witcher and DS (and even most MMOs) are much more linear than Elite, with strictly confined gameplay. Elite will never be like that. Look at the current "story" we'¨ve been fed. It just doesn't fit. The game isn't designed to tell the story. Hell, even the engine isn't capable of doing that.
You may argue that Elite took the whole "do what you want" thing too far and it's leaving people clueless. And clueless people are clutching at straws - in this case, the only thing that resembles vertical progression. And that is grind

 

[metatheurgist]

In reality it has become a necessity to endure before you can do what you really want to.

What do you think you need engineers to do?

 

[Maka Gucci]

What do you think you need engineers to do?

PvP
Fight Thargoids
Experiment with different ship builds

 

[Maka Gucci]

Minecraft is the only fair comparison, imho. Both Witcher and DS (and even most MMOs) are much more linear than Elite, with strictly confined gameplay. Elite will never be like that. Look at the current "story" we'¨ve been fed. It just doesn't fit. The game isn't designed to tell the story. Hell, even the engine isn't capable of doing that.
You may argue that Elite took the whole "do what you want" thing too far and it's leaving people clueless. And clueless people are clutching at straws - in this case, the only thing that resembles vertical progression. And that is grind

What about the description of the guardian ruins gameplay in relation to the game design definition of grind. Can you not objectively say that lessening the amount off door opening at the end of that long hall way would go towards removing the grind in that progression?

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

"do what you want" thing too far and it's leaving people clueless.

But most people don't want to scan wakes, shoot rocks and search USS's for hours. So, it didn't go far enough in terms of "do what you want."

 

[Chris Simon]

What about the description of the guardian ruins gameplay in relation to the game design definition of grind. Can you not objectively say that lessening the amount off door opening at the end of that long hall way would go towards removing the grind in that progression?

Yes, but that's my point. The whole "gameplay" around Guardians is a terrible idea that doesn't fit the game.

But most people don't want to scan wakes, shoot rocks and search USS's for hours. So, it didn't go far enough in terms of "do what you want."

Okay let me reiterate: "Choose whichever goal you want to get to it via available game mechanics" Better?

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

What do you think you need engineers to do?

To reduce the travel grind by upgrading my FSD.

 

[DAB42]

Grind is fine as long as there is small reward along the way. There are 12 empire ranks but only 5 empire rewards. Small more frequent rewards make the grind seem much more enjoyable.

Seems to me the system was set up that as you explored different areas of the game you gained rewards by chance, little empire rank here little fed rank there with some engineering materials along the way. Problems is most of us think in terms of problem solving and to beat that next challenge we need to perform xyz in empire then move to federation. hence a long grind.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

So - ideas to make the game more engaging to the broader player base? Let's keep it constructive if we can please.

Cheers.

Let's take an example:

Core Dynamics Composites are often cited as a pain to collect. If we have multiple modules to engineer, and are looking for a stack of these to get that done to set up a ship to do something specific, it can be frustrating to postpone everything till RNG is favorable.

That's a roadblock. Over which we have no control.

I'm a human, not a pigeon in a Skinner box. So I played differently to that linear track.

Instead of trying to get materials after I have a goal set up, I just collected the materials in a relaxed way, taking breaks to do whatever I fancied for as long as I wanted.
Eventually my stocks of CDC hit 60. Along with many other materials, collected by salvaging, exploring planetsides, and doing odd missions.
Some did come from HGE USS sources, and some from whacking Anacondas.

That was plenty for me to make several HRP modules and some bulkheads on my combat ships. Did it in one go. Still have some left over.

Stress free. No perceived grind.

Now did I NEED these improvements?
Not really. Combat was going along just fine without them. Ships still have legacy mods from pre-patch on their weapons. Only G3 in some cases. There's no pressure on me to get them done over- they work same as they did before.

Don't rightly know how to convey this to another player. "You're playing it wrong" isn't really the message anybody wants or needs to hear.

This isn't new, or any great revelation. Mark Twain was writing about it before my grandfather was born.

Tom said to himself that it was not such a hollow world, after all. He had discovered a great law of human action, without knowing it--namely, that in order to make a man or a boy covet a thing, it is only necessary to make the thing difficult to attain. If he had been a great and wise philosopher, like the writer of this book, he would now have comprehended that Work consists of whatever a body is OBLIGED to do, and that Play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do

 

[shadragon]

Grind - can we solve the problem?

No, because you, and your expectations, are the problem.

So - ideas to make the game more engaging to the broader player base? Let's keep it constructive if we can please.

The broader player base wants Halo in Space. Pass thanks.

 

[metatheurgist]

Well, I was more interested in the OP's specific issues. Yes I do know that there are things that can't be done without engineers, but thanks for replying.

PvP
Fight Thargoids
Experiment with different ship builds

Yep, you can't PvP without engineers. You can fight thargoids, just not very well and it's still fun in wings with people that are engineered. Experimental ship builds is really getting into the game guts and I don't see how you can want to do that without going the whole 9 yards and committing to the grind if that's what you want to do.

To reduce the travel grind by upgrading my FSD.

Sliding scale, you can do this with g3 upgrades which are easy to do, g4 is not hard either.

 

[Frenotx]

The way to eliminate (or at lest reduce) the grind is to make the related activities fun and engaging. I wouldn't mind USS hunting if it involved actual hunting. Some sort of mechanic where you actively scan the system, weed out false positives, triangulate the location of signals, figure out (roughly) what's in them before flying there, etc. You know, like actually playing a game instead of just mindlessly flying and waiting for the game to give you what you're looking for. In general, making the various tasks have active elements, some amount of challenge, and involve skills that you can hone would make them feel a lot less like a grind, and a lot more like playing a fun game element and also happening to get what you're looking for as a bonus.