Group or Faction: which is the more important?

[Walter2]

This is neither a winge nor a rant; it’s a story of our times that’s got us wondering. If it’s too long for you to read, please don’t waste a post telling us - we already know it’s a long piece. Apologies.

Executive summary
Who do you think you are and just what do you think you’re doing?

Background
Our small group started supporting the Progressive Party of Hernkopa in April 2015/3301. Encouraged by our success in taking control of our first system we embarked on a scattergun approach to finding other social factions and flipping their systems, coupled with the odd random expansion as was the fashion in those days. With the addition of a colleague who had set up a similar region we covered a wide area supporting a large number of different factions.

We converted systems through the power of our personalities so there was little call to take part in the ceremonial wars that preceded conversion from Empire control to democratic freedom. There was little traffic, no opposition and our optician had supplied glasses with lenses of a particularly entrancing shade of pale red.

Developments
When FD offered groups like ours the opportunity to adopt our favoured faction it didn’t inspire a sense of urgency - we were doing well enough as we were. But they also offered to create bespoke factions for groups and one was rudely inserted in one of our satellite regions and the very soon made it plain that it would resist our charms.

“Look,” we said, “We’ve converted all these systems round you. Please respect their privacy and expand and develop other systems in your quest for local dominance.”
“Doesn’t count,” they retorted. “A group cannot control a number of NPC factions and claim systems. It gives an unfair advantage. Only PMFs - like ours - count.”

They had a certain justification we realised, so we withdrew from our country estates to concentrate on two factions in our homeland, PPH and Revolutionary Quile for Equality. We missed the opportunity to adopt PPH by a week, and FD failed to insert a requested substitute faction in Hernkopa (while the description is in the GM, there is no Hernkopa Interstellar Logistics faction), but Tom Paine’s Crew now controls a modest number of systems from a nearby location.

Today
Our Nemesis now has about 230 commanders on its books and controls more than 30 systems. They are also at our gates.

The (still very small) Hernkopa Cooperative controls 25 systems, but the Nemesis only recognises the seven in which Tom Paine’s Crew has a presence; the rest - systems controlled by PPH and RQE - are fair targets for expansion and control and no compromise is available.

Conclusion
Neither the Nemesis nor the Hernkopa Cooperative has any more or less rights in the game than any other group and both can claim justification for their philosophical stances.

The question is (and we're not trying to garner arguments to bolster our cause - we're just interested), Can two such divergent approaches to the game coexist, or must one approach give way to the other? Is this just another example of the type of binary positioning that ED generates? We don’t have enough information on how other groups are organised to come to a satisfactory conclusion, or to know if our Cooperative is unusual.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I would say in practice that - while a group can declare that it will only recognise territorial claims as legitimate if concerning an official PMF - it obviously needs to be able to back up a lack of recognition with the ability to generate influence and manage its own territory.

And if it has that, it's under no obligation beyond that introduced by diplomatic concerns to consider another PMF's claims as legitimate either. Conversely, while it may not initially recognise an adopted faction's claims as legitimate, if it starts losing the battle the need for diplomacy may lead it to reconsider.

 

[Misaniovent]

“Look,” we said, “We’ve converted all these systems round you. Please respect their privacy and expand and develop other systems in your quest for local dominance.”
“Doesn’t count,” they retorted. “A group cannot control a number of NPC factions and claim systems. It gives an unfair advantage. Only PMFs - like ours - count.”

The idea of PMF superiority — that only explicitly player-made factions are legitimate — is popular. Your story is not unique by any stretch. Ideally these issues would be resolved by diplomacy, but they often boil down to who has the most might.

 

[Marra Morgan]

There is no right or wrong way to go about these things, imo. Might makes right in Elite's universe - it's a matter of who has the numbers, the tactics and the will to come out on top.

I've had my fair share of being both conqueror and the conquered - it's all good fun, just roll with it and embrace it as part of your narrative

 

[Sentenza]

"God is on the side of the big battalions"

 

[Jane Turner]

The idea of PMF superiority — that only explicitly player-made factions are legitimate — is popular. Your story is not unique by any stretch. Ideally these issues would be resolved by diplomacy, but they often boil down to who has the most might.

Or nous and diplomacy skills

 

[Misaniovent]

Or nous and diplomacy skills

I had to google "nous!"

 

[Alpenmilch]

Greetings from your so called "Nemesis"

Dear Walter,you just forget some facts.

You left the area two years ago with many thanks to us respecting your work. We know: The Hernkopa NPC-Faction was mostly build up by a friend of you.

Now you come back with your own Player Faction. We are fine with that and offered you not to disturb your Player Faction work. But on top of that, you want to claim two other NPC-Factions as untouchable. Walter don´t want a NPC OR a Player group, he want to have protection for all of them at the same time. This Thread should be named:

Group AND Faction. How can I become very importand?

Walter already used "his" NPCs to throw several Player Factions in their home Systems under the bus. So how could there be any respect for those two NPC-Factions?

There are logical reasons Frontier will not support this behaviour.

Walter could expand three times faster than everybody else. If he likes to choose the opposite direction of our Systems, he can do that forever. We could never catch up, because the expansion duration is the same for every Faction. He can do so, if he like.
But he can´t expect the same respect vor claimed NPC Factions like we have for Player Factions.

And by the way, we did nothing against any of Walters claimed groups so far.

I will give the two last posts I send to Walter to the public, just to give some more information.


Judge yourself




Hello Walter. I did not know that you are a creator of alternative facts.

Just to remember: We have never aggressively taken "your" systems. Between the registration of the Likedeeler and our appearance, your Cooperation of three Players had conquered Michel. First you tried to push us down, after you realized that you can’t throw us out we made an succsessful agreement.
We even warned you when your influence began to decline in "your" systems.You wrote to me in October 2016 that your Cooperation has disbanded and want to try their luck elsewhere.

There is no three years of work in the region other than ours, just as we don’t have rolled over you aggressively.
I may send you as a reminder your post with the message of your liquidation. You dropped the ball, left the field, told us "help yourself, Bye bye" and blaming us now two years later for continuing playing the game?

The only thing in question was: Is a gentleman agreement possible, not to disturb each other Player Factions work. The P-Factions are around for a very long time and those are the figures we normally like to respect in the game. Who comes first gets the System or we agree about a competition about the leadership of the system. This is how we handle things with two dozen Player Factions around us in a respectful way. We made a lot of friends over this procedure.

The NPC-Factions are the playground for everybody in the universe. Otherwise there will be no playing at some point. Claiming several NPC Factions as untouchable is like cheating in a way. With three Factions you can grow three times faster than everybody else. Just with a Wing with one person.

What would happen, if I name in relation to our size more than 400 NPC-Factions as"ours"? The BGS-game would be ruined, if every Faction would do the same. As mentioned we also work for a lot of NPC-Factions in Systems with no Player Factions. But we and anybody else would never say, the Systems of those are our untouchable possession.

You still don´t told me, what is about your respect for the Player Wings of the Ravagers, The Armed Wing and Moritasgus Imperial Corporation?

(...)



Hello Walter, I am very sorry you don´t get our point.

It is not our priority to smash your work to the ground. You have to notice, things had changed since the beginning. Even here in the outer rim of the Bubble we have to deal with 26 Player Factions at our toes. Some of them are quite powerful; some have only a few players. Nevertheless, we like to appreciate their work.

Things become more and more similar to the situation in Colonia, where we are present,too. So we have a lot of experience about dealing with other Factions. It becomes part of our BGS gameplay to navigate our expansions around otherFactions and find “free” corridors to growth. It is quite complicated, but also part of the fun. We have enough power to defend ourselves, but we prefer the cooperative way if possible.

We also support a lot NPC Factions, like for example 599 Rev. or Bipek Labour and prevent them a lot of times to retreat. Also the Hernkopas got some love from us, as our Excel Sheet tells us. You may see how many NPC-F has expanded around us. This comes not from nothing. Should we say, they are all ours? And Shinrarta Dezhra and Sol and Maia, too? This would be ridiculous.

You dropped to play in region for a very long time, I assume it was a lack of interest,because of what you wrote me two years ago.
Just to remind you, here is your Post to me from October 2016:

“Hi Serge
You are quite right, we haven't been around for a time. FD would not let us take over the factions we had been working with for nearly two years and said we had to start again with new factions. That was all a bit depressing and we lost a lotof the enthusiasm we had.
I dropped everything at HIP 599 and went to Sag A and then on to Colonia. Ant at Bipek moved further out and TomoRosso almost stopped playing completely.
So - help yourself. We really appreciated the way you guys came in and respected our systems. Thanks you very much and good luck.
Walter”

No more questions, Sir. You wrote the facts by yourself.

Player Factions was around for a much longer time. Now you already have a Player Faction. That´s fine and with 230 Pilots I had told you at first glance, we would like to respect your one man Faction project, if you do so vice versa. Sounds absolutely not aggressive to me at all. We like to have friends.

BUT: Claiming NPC-Factions could not be part of the deal. I tried to explain to at the beginning what is wrong with that.
It is about logic, not about aggression.

I know you have a lot of BGS experience. As I read your description of dealing with the three Player groups, you smashed them to the ground and now there are dead, because they had quite not the experience to defend their home systems against a hidden aggressor. Sorry, but sounds a little bit to me, you fear get the same in return.

Well then again briefly.

We don´t want to roll over especially you. We got a lot of things to do.
But we will not give you more rights than anybody else in the universe.
There are a lot of options to grow for Tom´s Paine Crew.

Maybe you notice nevertheless we are many more Pilots, I handle your request with a lot of time.

Think about it.

Best wishes

Serge

 

[Walter2]

Alpenmilch, I think you've rather missed the point of this thread.

 

[FrogsFriend]

Minor Factions named by player groups or with FD generated names are all on an equal footing. All that matters is player support.
Neither side can be ejected from the game to allow an ultimate victory and if at least one player on each side wants to keep fighting for their cause, then the war continues.

 

[Alpenmilch]

Dear Walter, I don´t think so. I just gave an example of what is the meaning of your Thread. You named us as Nemesis serval times. So we are the topic.

By the way, Quile was never mentioned in 2016. You named four other NPC groups back then, we just respected before you leave two years ago.


If Player Factions claim NPC Faction in addition, this would ruin the entire game. You can’t go to the Football World championship with four Teams… Well, ok, Great Britain can, not a good example.

Building an one man empire with the remains of your friends work on top of your Player Faction and in addition of another aggressive NPC group is very much the point here.

Asking very loud for respect for long time ago abandoned things while ruining other Players Factions is the other one.


Why is there so much fear? We have done nothing to you.


Still, I am hoping you think about that.

But I began to wonder, why I think so.

 

[lemny]

Minor Factions named by player groups or with FD generated names are all on an equal footing. All that matters is player support.
Neither side can be ejected from the game to allow an ultimate victory and if at least one player on each side wants to keep fighting for their cause, then the war continues.

Even if the player and NPC factions are treated equally, one player or group should not claim multiple factions as his own.
This would really ruin the BGS game. And it looks too me that Walter did that.

 

[Marcus Machiavelli]

Very interesting thread Walter2.
As i have been watching your faction closely as you have control of the Theta Phoenicis system where "The Armed Wing" faction is. This is a player faction of a friend of mine who only plays now and then as he is in and out of hospital with cancer. He is fine with you guys in control of his home system as he cannot put in the time.

1. So does make it a bit better that you did it to someone else accidentally that you thought was a "dead" player group but it is not?
2. As a leader of a player group myself I would recognize your right to rule systems your faction "Tom Paine’s Crew" is in but it is a tall order to trust another group that they also rule another faction as well.
3. I know of other groups in your position who had to give up their old supported faction and start again with their player faction. Not fair but it is recognized by other groups as legitimate.
4. So yes to your question of "to know if our Cooperative is unusual"

These are just my groups thoughts ( and those of the Armed Wing)

 

[Walter2]

As i have been watching your faction closely as you have control of the Theta Phoenicis system where "The Armed Wing" faction is. This is a player faction of a friend of mine who only plays now and then as he is in and out of hospital with cancer. He is fine with you guys in control of his home system as he cannot put in the time.

I'm very sorry to hear that. We had assumed the Armed Wing had run out of players as we had seen no action from them for over a year. Please pass on our best wishes to your friend.

 

[Marcus Machiavelli]

I'm very sorry to hear that. We had assumed the Armed Wing had run out of players as we had seen no action from them for over a year. Please pass on our best wishes to your friend.

Thank you Walter2. I will.

 

[Jmanis]

I had a longer post planned, but I hated it, so here's the short version.

- If you agree that the (primary) purpose of the BGS is to provide a living, breathing universe which changes in response to player interaction, then the Group has precedence... go forth and affiliate with however many factions you like, tell your story, and always know the BGS will never be the balanced chess-like game some claim it to be, knowing full well FD could just drop a Thargoid invasion on your system with no warning, or that another player may submit a CG which provides major advantage over you.
*or*
- If you agree that the (primary) purpose of the BGS is to provide a strategic, balanced chess-like overlay for faction-vs-faction gameplay, then the Faction has precedence... affiliation or "claim" over multiple factions cannot exist due to the way BGS/state mechanics function, with multiple factions providing significant advantage over a single, unified faction. Also say goodbye to player-submitted CGs and any rewards such as new/modified stations, facilities or other things not otherwise obtainable in-game using mechanics available to anyone.

And while I'm sure everyone here is tired of me saying I sit in the first camp, I'm not here to say one is right or wrong. What I am saying is that both definitions are valid to FD, but to assuming truth of conditions behind both scenarios requires major cognitive dissonance.

 

[Alpenmilch]

First of all best wishes to the friend of Marcus Machiavelli.


What is Elite about?

The structure of the game drives us into conflict. There is no reason to respect each others work inside the game, than sharing fun with them. The game gives you nothing for that and things become much more complicated if you don´t play in the predicted way.

But the community of Elite is much more "adult" than the Players in every other game.

So we like, like many others, appriciate what other Players had achieved. It makes the BGS game much more demanding and we like to be polite and cute.

It is in a way playing chess and trying to never cross the Center line.

This kind of gentlemen agreements are a special thing of Elite. It works many times, because we have a huge chessboard. We have a lot of such agreements and enjoy the diplomatic dimension of the game most of the time very much.

But some Players for example, like to play with three, six or more queens and tell everybody "This is mine! Don´t touch it!" Some of them don´t even play anymore, but running wild, if they find some movement in "their" systems, when the have a look at it after a few months.

They had buyed the game like everybody else and any right to play like they want to. But I think, all of them would be better off with a singleplayer game, because it is not cooperative fun and also not helping for a living and breathing universe. At the end this behavior compromise the gameplay in every way.

A friend of mine had tryed to manage an entire region with close to 200 NPC Factions. It has started quite little, but has grown fast and bites him in the back at the end. He has a Elite-Burnout now, because he can´t let go anything and build a huge house of cards. He told me: It´s a trap.

Friendship and fun are the things that will be left, when Frontier shuts the server down one day.

This we should never forget.

 

[Walter2]

I had a longer post planned, but I hated it, so here's the short version.

- If you agree that the (primary) purpose of the BGS is to provide a living, breathing universe which changes in response to player interaction, then the Group has precedence... go forth and affiliate with however many factions you like, tell your story, and always know the BGS will never be the balanced chess-like game some claim it to be, knowing full well FD could just drop a Thargoid invasion on your system with no warning, or that another player may submit a CG which provides major advantage over you.
*or*
- If you agree that the (primary) purpose of the BGS is to provide a strategic, balanced chess-like overlay for faction-vs-faction gameplay, then the Faction has precedence... affiliation or "claim" over multiple factions cannot exist due to the way BGS/state mechanics function, with multiple factions providing significant advantage over a single, unified faction. Also say goodbye to player-submitted CGs and any rewards such as new/modified stations, facilities or other things not otherwise obtainable in-game using mechanics available to anyone.

And while I'm sure everyone here is tired of me saying I sit in the first camp, I'm not here to say one is right or wrong. What I am saying is that both definitions are valid to FD, but to assuming truth of conditions behind both scenarios requires major cognitive dissonance.

Exactly my conclusion and it’s all come down to a head count. A legal vacuum doubly filled by mutually exclusive rules, one based on old play and one on new. Neither ruleset, in this instance at least, can bear a jot of compromise. Even with my Nemesis granting immunity to Tom Paine’s Crew (which they certainly would), its position almost at the physical heart of Hernkopa Cooperative’s space means the faction would inevitably become spacelocked. (I had deliberately not invoke the name of the Nemesis as it wasn’t relevant to the questions and it seemed churlish to do so - and still does.)

It’s actually a bit of a relief to finally admit something that has be nagging at me for some time: we’ve probably reached our growth limit; a group of our size can only take on so much - after that it’s perpetual fire-fighting.

We’re leaving behind what will probably reduce to an ember, a spark of liberty and freedom in a hostile environment. If FD doesn’t institute a purge of dead PMFs, perhaps some adventurous group will encourage Tom Paine’s flame at some future date.

This Hernkopa Cooperative signing off.

 

[Loretharn]

Dear Walter,

this Nemesis has already shown her name here and is not hiding. We are the Likedeeler. Besides, we neither wanted retribution against any hubris, nor did we want to destroy the Herncopa cooperative. We have friendly relations with many factions around us - admittedly player factions.

Personally, I think it's a pity that You want to quit. I like Your philosophic approach to the game and I am sure we could have made a gentleman's agreement. Apart from that, Your cooperative is far from being spacelocked. There are still lots of possible expansion systems as well for Your factions as for ours. Of course 25 systems is a lot, depending on how many people are involved.

I can only wish You ongoing fun in the game.

Sincerely

Loretharn

 

[TomoRosso]

Dear Walter,you just forget some facts.

You left the area two years ago with many thanks to us respecting your work. We know: The Hernkopa NPC-Faction was mostly build up by a friend of you.

Incorrect, Walter is just as responsible as I am for the success of the Progressive Party of Hernkopa in the region.

While Walter did a brief spell in Colonia some time ago I was still in the area.

It is correct that I have not played for the best part of a year, this is due to the utterly boring grindarama gameplay of Elite: Tedious all my ships are rusting away in Hernkopa.

I for one would not like to see Hernkopa handed back to the Empire.