Guardian Plasma Chargers need...something.

I've messed around with Guardian Plasma Chargers for a long time, and unfortunately, it's really hard to find a usable niche for them. Every place they have something good, it seems like they have something bad to make up for it, to the point where they're hardly usable at all.

For example, with the new AGF engineering I was thinking about using them for Titan Pod Rescues, since they generate very little heat when fired at full charge! The problem? They take a colossal amount of power, which I can't manage with a low-emissions power plant. By contrast, I can use missiles or multicannons easily.

They seem like they might be a decent choice for Spire Farming, but because they have no splash damage I can't take out the Revenants.

They seem like they'd be alright for Orthrus hunting, but because they take so much distributor power you can't sustain them, so they end up doing less damage per second than missiles, despite their higher damage per shot.

They seem like they'd be decent for scout hunting, but because of their slightly lower projectile speed, they're again outcompeted by enhanced missiles, which do the same thing but with far less requirements in every way, or Multicannons, which can be gimballed and do the same thing without needing to aim.

They're just really hard to find a good use for. Anywhere you can use them, there's already a better option!

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Here's some ideas for ways to buff them.

1. Make them Gimballed.

This change alone would make a big difference. They could go in slots currently dedicated to scouts, like the top 2 large hardpoints on the Cutter, and also be more effective vs interceptors. No reduction in damage output would be necessary due to their massive power draw.

2. Give them a splash radius.

Similar effect, this would make it easier to hit hearts with them without needing a xeno scanner, and would let them kill ground enemies more effectively as well.

3. Reduce their distro draw.

The currently take 12.5MW to do 60 damage, before armor hardness. That's under 5 DPE. The problem here is, the most you can really carry is 2, but most decent ships have 3 large hardpoints. A Krait or Python can't really justify carrying 3, while an Anaconda or Corvette(which could theoretically power 3) can't aim fast enough to use them effectively.

4. Reduce their power draw.

They currently draw the most of any guardian weapon, which makes little sense, as they're also the worst guardian weapon. Reduce their power draw by ~90%, making them the low-impact choice for people without enough power for alternatives.

5. Do something funky

There are all sorts of other choices, too. Give them infinite ammo, maybe. Buff their uncharged firing mode. Make them disable enemy special attacks. The possibilities are limitless!

But right now, they're pretty bad, and they've been bad for a long time. It would be nice to see them useful for once.
 
I have no Guardian weaponry to speak of but I second the first suggestion.

In fact all non seeking weaponry should be available on gimbals or turrets even if you have to fit the weapon on the next sized hard point up.
 
The currently take 12.5MW
What am I missing about this figure? The charge up time says it lasts 1.8s and unless the distributor draw ramps up with the charge rather than remaining constant, it shouldn't take that much. (And is this for a C2 or C3? I presume C3)

I also don't remember having issues using the modified plasma chargers which have the same distributor cost as their baseline variant, supposedly, unless I was trying to charge all four at the same time or didn't have four pips to weapons, which makes all the Guardian weapons except baseline shards suffer...

... though, writing that out, I can see the problem of the energy put in vs what comes out of the barrel of the (regular) plasma charger.
 
What am I missing about this figure? The charge up time says it lasts 1.8s and unless the distributor draw ramps up with the charge rather than remaining constant, it shouldn't take that much. (And is this for a C2 or C3? I presume C3)

I also don't remember having issues using the modified plasma chargers which have the same distributor cost as their baseline variant, supposedly, unless I was trying to charge all four at the same time or didn't have four pips to weapons, which makes all the Guardian weapons except baseline shards suffer...

... though, writing that out, I can see the problem of the energy put in vs what comes out of the barrel of the (regular) plasma charger.

Honestly, I have no idea what the ingame figure means. It certainly doesn't seem to line up with anything I can see.

You can test how much they take by fully charging your distributor, swapping all pips away, and seeing how many fully-charged shots you can make without running out. On my Vulture, using C3 plasmas, I can fire precisely 3 fully-charged shots. And the fully engineered distro has 37.4 MW of capacity, so 37.4/3=12.466 MW per shot.

C2 seems to take around 10.5, and C1 seems to take about 9. Which is pretty egregious given the C1s only do about 25 damage; 41% the damage but 71% the distro draw. By contrast, C1 Gauss is actually MORE efficient than the C2 counterpart.

Honestly, C3 plasmas aren't completely awful vs cyclopses, it's largely against the higher interceptors where they really start to fall off. Against basilisks, for example, they have ~65% the DPE of Gauss. And, of course, they're way harder to hit with. And worse heart damage.

They seem like they should have some perks if you look at them in the right light, but every single perk ends up having 2 matching downsides, and they just end up virtually unusable except for memes.
 
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Honestly, I have no idea what the ingame figure means. It certainly doesn't seem to line up with anything I can see.

You can test how much they take by fully charging your distributor, swapping all pips away, and seeing how many fully-charged shots you can make without running out. On my Vulture, using C3 plasmas, I can fire precisely 3 fully-charged shots. And the fully engineered distro has 37.4 MW of capacity, so 37.4/3=12.466 MW per shot.

C2 seems to take around 10.5, and C1 seems to take about 9. Which is pretty egregious given the C1s only do about 25 damage; 41% the damage but 71% the distro draw. By contrast, C1 Gauss is actually MORE efficient than the C2 counterpart.

Honestly, C3 plasmas aren't completely awful vs cyclopses, it's largely against the higher interceptors where they really start to fall off. Against basilisks, for example, they have ~65% the DPE of Gauss. And, of course, they're way harder to hit with.

They seem like they should have some perks if you look at them in the right light, but every single perk ends up having 2 matching downsides, and they just end up virtually unusable except for memes.
Yeah, that's definitely a bit of a headscratcher. At least the original shard cannons kind of make up for their lower piercing and absurd shot spread by having fairly lower thermal load and distributor draw(not that it's made anybody really use them outside of Orthrus slaughtering or around Titans... if they had/have access to modshards, that is).

It certainly says a lot when the designers of the modified Guardian weaponry saw that much room for improvement over the originals, but the gauss cannon kind of just... stayed the same with more ammo and a sidegrade which makes for cool sound effects but not so much practicality in fighting, and the higher ammo capacity is somewhat negated by the burst fire at that. Not to mention lower falloff range.

Not sure I would expect this balancing weirdness to get looked at, though, even if it is worth pointing a finger at.
 
I just tried them(2xC3s) out near the Titan, with the idea of doing more damage to the Scythes.

Problem 1: to use them with their massive power requirements, I had to swap power plants. That meant I no longer ran cool enough to fly around without vent beams, which meant less situational awareness, which meant more enemy aggression. Bad.
Problem 2: The slow projectile speed+fixed mount meant I could not consistently hit enemies with them, reducing the damage output dramatically. Scythes don't move slowly enough to be hit consistently, and Glaives are even worse. And of course, unlike missiles, they can't stunlock glaives because they don't have a splash. Bad bad.
Problem 3: They use too much distro, so you can't run them at the same time as vent beams. So you get hot, and have to use heat sinks instead, requiring constantly synthesis. Bad bad bad.

I was doing less damage, taking more damage, and flying more poorly just by using them. In five minutes, I experienced every single flaw I pointed out above. They just take too many sacrifices for too little benefit.
 
Yeah, as much as I always loved regular plasma chargers and wanted to use them, they are just too weak. I still think they were supposed to be the heart exertion artillery and should be restored to that status, so I favor the solutions that give them more oomph than ones that mitigate their downsides. Power, range and penetration. Hard to hit scouts with them and that's OK, but if one does manage to hit it should really hurt them. Modplasmas are on different level here too being about the second best anti-scout weapons, but we are not talking about modplasmas here.

As for the list:
1. There is a turreted version, so why not gimbals too? If damage drop range and shot speed are not improved, they do need this.
2. There is visible splash, so this would make sense. Not that I think hitting hearts should be the goal.
3. As I said, I would prefer oompf to be added.
4. Would make sense if they were kept as weak as now. Not otherwise.
5. Always an option.

Finally, can we have a huge Guardian Plasma Charger, please?
 
I should probably note that the suggestions here are mostly focused on the class threes. They are the only ones that are remotely close to the possibility of being balanced. The class twos and class ones, with their exorbitant distributor draw and lower armor piercing would probably still be completely unusable even with these suggestions.

What they really need is not equal percentage Buffs at all classes, but rather equal flat Buffs at all classes. For example, increasing the base damage by one across the board would increase the damage on the class threes by about 30%, the class twos by about 40%, and the class ones by 66%.
 
Yeah, I think the plasma chargers might be the only weapon that have less armour piercing for smaller classes, making them even more useless. What's up with that?
 
Yeah, I think the plasma chargers might be the only weapon that have less armour piercing for smaller classes, making them even more useless. What's up with that?
Actually, shard cannons do as well. The standard 3C has 60, and a 2A has 45. A 1D(which probably nobody has ever used?), 30... though I suspect the reasons for them not getting established as a choice weapon prior to modified Guardian toys also have to do with the comically large spread. And, speaking of them...

Modshards, the class 2 has 91 and the class 1 has 61(rounded values apparently, EDSY lists them as having 90.9 and 60.6 respectively). Can't say if I ever noticed any difference but the majority of the time you'll be fitting C2s on AX ships anyway, and small only when you have no other option (as a Corvette would unless willing to put up with the terrific convergence of the medium hardpoints).
 
Nah, it's only Gauss Cannons that buck the trend. Unfortunately, that means C1 Gauss is about 750% more efficient than C1 Plasma, and it's a big part of why gauss cannons were the only meta option for so long.

I'm not sure entirely what they were thinking. Sure, you could use small guardian weapons to break the shields faster, but why bother when you can just use beam lasers instead, have infinite ammo, and cool yourself off besides? It doesn't take that long to take thargoid shields down anyway.

Another idea that strikes me just now is if plasma hits could stun thargoids briefly, like hitting a glaive with a missile when it comes in for a lightning attack. Stunning a scout for a moment could let you get a second shot and finish it off, which would be nice, and it could also delay a thargoid putting up its shield for a moment allowing you a bit more time to gib them, which could also be nice.

Another idea that was proposed on discord was to make plasmas the anti-swarm guardian weapon. They already have the cool lightning splash effect, just let them hit swarms!
 
Ah yes, when it comes to small slots, the Gauss is still the only viable option. Even with modshards or plasmas, I only use a C1 one to keep the battery uniform with the C2s I already have. That is, after I already have enough beam lasers.
 
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