Guardian Weapons need Engineering

[Lazerus Artificial]

Its a common fact that guardian weapons are considered "weak" against human ships. This is not due to there being a huge difference in stats, but due to the fact that we can engineer our human weapons and turn them into insane tools of mass destruction.

Lets take a look at some:

Medium Railgun deals 41 damage or 50 dps, has AP of 100, a damage split of 66K/33T, a range of 3km and a falloff at 1.0km
Medium Gauss deals 38 damage or 46 dps, has AP of 140, pure thermal damage, a range of 3km and a falloff at 1.5km

The wiki mentions this:

Compared to a conventional Railgun, the Gauss Cannon draws more power, generates more heat, penetrates armour more effectively, deals somewhat more damage, and has a longer range before damage falloff begins. Unlike AX weaponry it's still highly effective against human ships, though its armour penetration is excessively high for most man-made ships, and a well-Engineered Railgun of the same class will likely outperform a Gauss Cannon against human vessels.

So they are not THAT different. The Gauss Cannon could be a viable sidegrade, if there wouldnt be engineering...
an engineered long range railgun has a range of 6km and a falloff at 6km. so no falloff at all anymore. It also supports experimental effects like Feedback Cascade to wreck Shield Cells or Super Penetrator to wreck Modules, both have a reduction on thermal load

Medium Plasma Accelerator deals 54 damage, has a damage split of 60A/20K/20T, a range of 3.5km with falloff at 2km
Medium Plasma Charger fully charged deals 46 damage, has absolute damage, a range of 3.5km with falloff at 1km
again an interesting sidegrade mainly due to the absolute damage type and the ability to release weaker projectiles with a higher rate of fire.
again engineering breaks it...add long range to increase the range to 7km, double the projectile speed and completely remove the falloff. add an experimental to phase through shields or so too.

Guardian Fighters are usable since you cant engineer human fighters either. They are not better, but they are also not worse.
Guardian Fighters fit nicely between our existing human fighters with their stats. Highest Shield but lowest Armor, second best Agility, second best Speed, completely new weapons that we couldnt use on fighters before (railguns or frags).
The moment we get Fighter Engineering those Guardian Figthers will too become completely useless.

So, without engineering the only use of the guardian weapons is as anti-thargoid.
with engineering they could be a viable tool against both.
So why not add engineering for them that removes the anti-thargoid advantage but increases other uses just like human weapons?

 

[Autoculto]

I don't feel they need engineering but removing the max x4 alloted per vessel would be a better idea

 

[fu9ar]

Is it not clear that FDev is making is so you need to choose your loadouts carefully so that you can't just have one build that easily dominates everything in the game?

 

[OHMSS]

Standard Guardian ‘stuff’ has it’s rather limited place with the exception of the FSD Booster which is the one Guardian ‘thing’ that is a must have. I get that you’re talking about weapons but the whole range of Guardian ‘gear’ needs engineering. Without engineering it’s still not the best we can get. Standard engineered parts are better. Guardian tech is the catalyst to buffing human technological capability to equal and best the Thargoid threat. I get that some talented pilots can do it with their outstanding skill but we need numbers. To bridge the gap and bring the rest of us into contention we need an edge. Engineering Guardian tech brings everyone else into the fight. Once my enemies enemy is defeated, we’ll turn on each other again. It’s human nature. To address your post, perhaps at that point engineered Guardian tech will be useful against other human players. Good post, thankyou.

 

[[VR] Frank_G]

No they don´t. They are prototypes, already built by the engineers and as best as they can be right now. Keep them special.

 

[V'larr]

And deeper down the "definite upgrade" power creep rabbit hole we go....

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Is it not clear that FDev is making is so you need to choose your loadouts carefully so that you can't just have one build that easily dominates everything in the game?

thats why i said that engineering should then remove the anti thargoid advantage, but allow them to still compete with their human sidegrades

No they don´t. They are prototypes, already built by the engineers and as best as they can be right now. Keep them special.

and what exactly stops them from tinkering further with that?
normal weapons and gear are also "the best you can get" until an engineer removes every single safety restriction and overcharges it, or removes every single vital piece that holds it together to make it lighter.

And deeper down the "definite upgrade" power creep rabbit hole we go....

thats exactly the problem. either you go down the rabbit hole with everything, or you fill the hole with concrete and remove engineering from the game.
but introducing new toys to play with and only adding 50% of the features isnt a good solution.
Guardian stuff is a major feature by now, and just like planetary surface content its just a half baked thing. yes its there, but it has no effect on 90% of the game. you cant use it for anything other than for the in-season content.

Standard Guardian ‘stuff’ has it’s rather limited place with the exception of the FSD Booster which is the one Guardian ‘thing’ that is a must have. I get that you’re talking about weapons but the whole range of Guardian ‘gear’ needs engineering. Without engineering it’s still not the best we can get. Standard engineered parts are better. Guardian tech is the catalyst to buffing human technological capability to equal and best the Thargoid threat. I get that some talented pilots can do it with their outstanding skill but we need numbers. To bridge the gap and bring the rest of us into contention we need an edge. Engineering Guardian tech brings everyone else into the fight. Once my enemies enemy is defeated, we’ll turn on each other again. It’s human nature. To address your post, perhaps at that point engineered Guardian tech will be useful against other human players. Good post, thankyou.

problem is, that the other guardian modules are pretty much pre-engineered. the Guardian PP for example is a cheap alternative when you dont want to engineer a PP yourself. same with the PD.
the Boosters are an example where it was done right. in-season content that is usable even for regular content.
the weapons are just the worst at the moment. other than the thargoid advantage they dont have a use, and thargoids are still just a minor opt-in part of content.
they dont need to be stronger than human counterparts, but with engineering they could atleast compete with them as sidegrades. i never said i want an upgrade to our human tech, i only said they are interesting sidegrides up to the point where you add engineering to the human versions

 

[Stealthie]

This thread will have somebody at FDev banging their head on their desk.

The whole, basic, point of Guardian stuff is that it takes some effort to unlock but then every module you buy is equivalent to an engineered standard module - without the faff of getting it engineered.

Granted, it's a bit less apparent with the weapons but I suspect that's because they're deliberately intended as some kind of compromise.
Fdev seem to want us to have to choose whether a ship is strong vs goids or strong vs humans, but not both.
Guardian weapons seem to be intended to fit somewhere in the middle, being okayish vs goids and humans.

Dunno if that's really a good idea but it's pretty obvious that's the intention.

My advice would be to enjoy the benefits of the Guardian modules and then just play with the Guardian weapons if you want to.

 

[fu9ar]

thats exactly the problem. either you go down the rabbit hole with everything, or you fill the hole with concrete and remove engineering from the game.
but introducing new toys to play with and only adding 50% of the features isnt a good solution.
Guardian stuff is a major feature by now, and just like planetary surface content its just a half baked thing. yes its there, but it has no effect on 90% of the game. you cant use it for anything other than for the in-season content.

1. a false dichotomy.

2. Guardian stuff is not a major feature. It's an incentive to give people who already have everything a reason to do something new.

3. Why are you people fronting that a few extra LY to your jump range is some absolute necessity? That's ridiculous nonsense.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

This thread will have somebody at FDev banging their head on their desk.

The whole, basic, point of Guardian stuff is that it takes some effort to unlock but then every module you buy is equivalent to an engineered standard module - without the faff of getting it engineered.

Granted, it's a bit less apparent with the weapons but I suspect that's because they're deliberately intended as some kind of compromise.
Fdev seem to want us to have to choose whether a ship is strong vs goids or strong vs humans, but not both.
Guardian weapons seem to be intended to fit somewhere in the middle, being okayish vs goids and humans.

Dunno if that's really a good idea but it's pretty obvious that's the intention.

My advice would be to enjoy the benefits of the Guardian modules and then just play with the Guardian weapons if you want to.

and as i said, thats the case with the Powerplant and Power Distributor.
Boosters are entirely new.
Weapons are a sidegrade to unengineered weapons with the anti-thargoid side effect.

1. a false dichotomy.

2. Guardian stuff is not a major feature. It's an incentive to give people who already have everything a reason to do something new.

3. Why are you people fronting that a few extra LY to your jump range is some absolute necessity? That's ridiculous nonsense.

Guardian stuff is one of the main story arcs right now. starting with 2.2 and over the whole season 3 one of the major parts was Guardian stuff. New ruins to discover and new stuff to unlock. they are even a bigger arc than the Thargoids which only get a new type of flower every few updates that behaves exaclty like the one before with just more hearts and more swarms.

the jump range is a nice thing to have, especially on ships that have a low jump range to begin with.

 

[lecorsobreton]

Full disclosure, I don't do PvP and I've not engaged thargoids. BUT I don't understand this min/max mentality some players have. OP, here is my Krait. It will probably make your eyes bleed xD

https://coriolis.io/outfit/krait_mk...3y6MgA3HAQAA.EweloBhBmUDYAsICmBDA5gG2SEBGCQoA

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Full disclosure, I don't do PvP and I've not engaged thargoids. BUT I don't understand this min/max mentality some players have. OP, here is my Krait. It will probably make your eyes bleed xD

https://coriolis.io/outfit/krait_mk...3y6MgA3HAQAA.EweloBhBmUDYAsICmBDA5gG2SEBGCQoA

oh im not talking about PVP. Im not even a min-maxer. I play for fun.
Thats why its sad that a large number of weapons by now is bad for 90% of the game just because of that one missing feature.
Engineering IS Powercreep. If it would affect PVP only then sure, no big deal, but since even NPCs can have it...
You dont have a reason to use a Plasma Charger when you can engineer a Plasma Accelerator to make it much much better.
Guardian Weapons are stuck in the basement while Human Weapons have shot through the roof.

Thats why i said that engineering them should remove the anti-thargoid effect. To make them an equal sidegrade to human weapons without turning them into thargoid-powercreep again

 

[M00ka]

In that case, I want my AX weapons buffed so they are lethal to human ships and my humdrum human weapons buffed so they are insta death to all aliens, including any we haven't found yet (just like to future proof things here for everyone cos I am so nice )

 

[Stealthie]

oh im not talking about PVP. Im not even a min-maxer. I play for fun.
Thats why its sad that a large number of weapons by now is bad for 90% of the game just because of that one missing feature.
Engineering IS Powercreep. If it would affect PVP only then sure, no big deal, but since even NPCs can have it...
You dont have a reason to use a Plasma Charger when you can engineer a Plasma Accelerator to make it much much better.
Guardian Weapons are stuck in the basement while Human Weapons have shot through the roof.

Thats why i said that engineering them should remove the anti-thargoid effect. To make them an equal sidegrade to human weapons without turning them into thargoid-powercreep again

If 90% of the weapons in the game are pointless, how would it help if you could engineer Guardian weapons into straight-up alternatives for weapons you can buy off-the-shelf?

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

If 90% of the weapons in the game are pointless, how would it help if you could engineer Guardian weapons into straight-up alternatives for weapons you can buy off-the-shelf?

not 90% of weapons, 90% of content.
Thargoid content is still a very minor part in this game, giving it a 10% is already generous. Yet we get more and more weapons to equip more and more ships with Anti-Thargoid tools that are bad in the rest of the content just because engineering added powercreep to our old weapons.

How it would help? Diversity!
We dont have just 1 combat, 1 trading, 1 exploration ship either. we have a large variety to choose from.
Hell we have 3 variants of the Chieftain by now to suit different playstyles

Without engineering we have exactly this diversity as Guardian Weapons have only a small difference to human weapons. But as soon as you add engineering to the mix the human versions become far superior.
And thats the problem.

As i said, im not talking about making anti-thargoid weapons even stronger, turning the Hydra into a walk in the park. Its all about making them a viable choice to their human counterparts.

The newest additions would be part of that too, the Shock Cannon and Flechette Launcher. Both are as far as i know new weapons without the anti-thargoid effect (the anti Thargoid Flechette is the Flak). Not to mention that the shock should be absolute and not kinetic since its plasma...

 

[M00ka]

I think I understand what the OP wants. He has done the grind to get the Guardian weapons, thinking it will give me a major edge when engaging human ships, either in PvE or PvP, and has found all his grind is worthless and wants the buff.

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

Its a common fact that guardian weapons are considered "weak" against human ships. This is not due to there being a huge difference in stats, but due to the fact that we can engineer our human weapons and turn them into insane tools of mass destruction.

Lets take a look at some:

Medium Railgun deals 41 damage or 50 dps, has AP of 100, a damage split of 66K/33T, a range of 3km and a falloff at 1.0km
Medium Gauss deals 38 damage or 46 dps, has AP of 140, pure thermal damage, a range of 3km and a falloff at 1.5km

The wiki mentions this:


So they are not THAT different. The Gauss Cannon could be a viable sidegrade, if there wouldnt be engineering...
an engineered long range railgun has a range of 6km and a falloff at 6km. so no falloff at all anymore. It also supports experimental effects like Feedback Cascade to wreck Shield Cells or Super Penetrator to wreck Modules, both have a reduction on thermal load

Medium Plasma Accelerator deals 54 damage, has a damage split of 60A/20K/20T, a range of 3.5km with falloff at 2km
Medium Plasma Charger fully charged deals 46 damage, has absolute damage, a range of 3.5km with falloff at 1km
again an interesting sidegrade mainly due to the absolute damage type and the ability to release weaker projectiles with a higher rate of fire.
again engineering breaks it...add long range to increase the range to 7km, double the projectile speed and completely remove the falloff. add an experimental to phase through shields or so too.

Guardian Fighters are usable since you cant engineer human fighters either. They are not better, but they are also not worse.
Guardian Fighters fit nicely between our existing human fighters with their stats. Highest Shield but lowest Armor, second best Agility, second best Speed, completely new weapons that we couldnt use on fighters before (railguns or frags).
The moment we get Fighter Engineering those Guardian Figthers will too become completely useless.

So, without engineering the only use of the guardian weapons is as anti-thargoid.
with engineering they could be a viable tool against both.
So why not add engineering for them that removes the anti-thargoid advantage but increases other uses just like human weapons?

They are in every aspect against human ships more worse than human weapons. Even engineering wouldn't change that.

The biggest difference and problem is the heat and power draw. A class 2 guardian gauss needs 60% more power than a class 2 railgun, and the railgun already takes a lot of power compared to all other weapons. The class 1 guardian gauss needs additionally 66% more power than the class 1 railgun.

So even if we could engineer them like every other weapon, i wouldn't take them into human fights because it's just a bad choice. They would have around the same damage and effects at still more power usage and heat.
So no thx.....keep them as anti-Bug weapons and instead gimme just my Beam + MC for human target

 

[bladebss]

From a lor perspective im not shure the engeneers are going to be all tha good at fiddleing with ancient alien technology.

However the new human tech could perhaps get some engeneers who could mabe do some engenering to them. Or just rebalance them to be more compettetive as they arnt anti xeno and dont realy stack up with other human weps

The shock cannon if engeneerable are basicaly cannons with one third the damage but twice the ammo but that you can fire off as fast as you can pull the trigger. Grade 3 might be ok as there would be compramise but still keep normal cannons a half way viable choice.

However i super wish i could put class one plasma chargers on my eagle and be effective in human combat. So.. it would be super good if we could have plasma repeters on small hard points.. like super cool.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Engineer guardian weapons?!

Slow down folks. I haven't even figured out how to get one yet... Lol

 

[lenna]

thats why i said that engineering should then remove the anti thargoid advantage, but allow them to still compete with their human sidegrades

There would be no point to allowing them to be engineered then since it would remove their main reason to exist as part of ED - to be usable in both human and guardian combat circumstances. In other cases, you may as well use the nominal non-experimental engineered kit.

That being said, I would not be opposed to FD introducing properly balanced in terms of trade-off "retuning" type engineering options for the Guardian weapons that do not eliminate the Thargoid damage effectiveness. However, it is a change that I believe is soundly in the nice-to-have category of changes.

As for guardian weapon effectiveness against human tech - overall they are quite effective enough in at least a PvE setting IME.