Guests dumber than bricks.

Likely there are many threads already about the stupidity of guests, but I couldn't find any.

Routes guests take are not even close to being a bit logical.

For example going to one Cosmic Cow, realize that there is quite a long line and decide to leave the park altogether while there is another Cosmic Cow right next to the other not serving anyone.
Guests with low cash will try to enter an "expensive" coaster, which they can't afford and will first go randomly visit other rides above their budget before visiting an ATM.

I could go on and on giving examples, but it really annoys me that they act the way they do.
 
Routes guests take are not even close to being a bit logical.

For example going to one Cosmic Cow, realize that there is quite a long line and decide to leave the park altogether while there is another Cosmic Cow right next to the other not serving anyone.
Guests with low cash will try to enter an "expensive" coaster, which they can't afford and will first go randomly visit other rides above their budget before visiting an ATM.

I could go on and on giving examples, but it really annoys me that they act the way they do.

Peeps actually think fairly predictably. Once you get over trying to view them as humans and remember that they're aliens from the Planet of Coaster, it's easier to tolerate them and you can set things up more to their liking.

As regards your 1st point....
Peeps must always have a goal, a destination, in mind. They go through a rather complex decision-making process to determine their next destination, whether that is a specific ride, a specific shop, or leaving the park. Whenever they get to that destination (assuming it's a shop or ride), they either do that thing, think the queue's too long, or discover they can't afford it. Either way, their next step is to pick a new destination.

So your park has a couple dozen rides, several dozen shops, and an exit. Each of these is a valid destination. How does the peep pick any one of them? It appears that each option is given a weight, essentially making it relatively more probable than other choices. Rides are heavily weighted by their prestige and the travel distance to them, shops are ranked by the intensity of the physical need they satisfy and hardwired preferences for specific types, and the exit's weight starts very low but increases over time, modified up or down by the peep's happiness level. All of these weights are then converted into relative probabilities, and the peep rolls dice to decide on his next destination.

The thing about this is that no destination is ever a certainty, and the chance of any option is never zero. While a very thirsty peep might be very likely to go to a drink shop to fix that, there's always a chance he'll leave the park or go on a ride instead. It's possible, though very rare, for a peep to enter the park, pay the admission price, then leave immediately without going on any rides or to any shops.

As regards your second point...
As mentioned above, the probability of a peep leaving the park is pretty much a function of time. If the peep is generally happy, he'll stay longer and vice versa, but time is the main thing. Another important thing is that price does not figure at all into the choice of a peep's next destination. Price only comes into play after the peep has decided to go there, and has arrived after the trip, and then discovers he doesn't have enough money to buy that thing. So, the important takeaways here are that:
1) peeps don't realize they're broke---the desire to leave the park is a function of time, not money
2) ride/shop pricing has zero effect on their popularity
3) if you have a bunch of broke peeps wandering around, it's because you took their money too fast.

As to ATMs, only a very small fraction of all peeps will ever use an ATM. This actually makes sense because if you could make them all do it, you'd have unlimited money. In general, even if your park is heaven on earth, only a few percent of all your peeps will ever use an ATM, so basically you're only source of income is the money peeps bring in with them. The few who use ATMs are just lagniappe.

So you're playing for pocket money. Which means that your monthly income is NOT set by prices but by the rate at which new peeps enter the park, bringing new money in with them. All parks have a peep capacity, either set by the user or the "natural" capacity which is some multiple of park rating. Once a park reaches its capacity, no new peeps can enter until some old peeps leave. Because peeps leave as a function of time, the only way to increase the rate of new peeps entering, and thus to increase your monthly income, is to increase park capacity, so more peeps are leaving per month, allowing more peeps to enter per month. But the higher you make your park rating, the happier everybody becomes, so the longer they'll stay. So increasing capacity ultimately runs into diminishing returns.
 
Sorry for long awaited reply.


Looking for threads on guest behavior?? theres quite a few
May have been lazy not looking passed post older than 2 months.

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...standing-the-Ebb-and-Flow-of-Guests-Guest-AI? Sits at page 18 of general discussion, last post 11-12-2016
https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/19232-Guest-Brain-has-Coaster-Obsession? Page 17, last post 14-12-2016
https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...anges-to-Peep-Decision-Making-to-go-on-Rides? last post 27-01-2017
https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/22909-Did-They-not-Fix-the-Congestion-Issues? Last post 03-04-2017

Also these post mostly describe issue's not related to mine.




Peeps actually think fairly predictably. Once you get over trying to view them as humans and remember that they're aliens from the Planet of Coaster, it's easier to tolerate them and you can set things up more to their liking.

As regards your 1st point....
Peeps must always have a goal, a destination, in mind. They go through a rather complex decision-making process to determine their next destination, whether that is a specific ride, a specific shop, or leaving the park. Whenever they get to that destination (assuming it's a shop or ride), they either do that thing, think the queue's too long, or discover they can't afford it. Either way, their next step is to pick a new destination.

So your park has a couple dozen rides, several dozen shops, and an exit. Each of these is a valid destination. How does the peep pick any one of them? It appears that each option is given a weight, essentially making it relatively more probable than other choices. Rides are heavily weighted by their prestige and the travel distance to them, shops are ranked by the intensity of the physical need they satisfy and hardwired preferences for specific types, and the exit's weight starts very low but increases over time, modified up or down by the peep's happiness level. All of these weights are then converted into relative probabilities, and the peep rolls dice to decide on his next destination.

The thing about this is that no destination is ever a certainty, and the chance of any option is never zero. While a very thirsty peep might be very likely to go to a drink shop to fix that, there's always a chance he'll leave the park or go on a ride instead. It's possible, though very rare, for a peep to enter the park, pay the admission price, then leave immediately without going on any rides or to any shops.

As regards your second point...
As mentioned above, the probability of a peep leaving the park is pretty much a function of time. If the peep is generally happy, he'll stay longer and vice versa, but time is the main thing. Another important thing is that price does not figure at all into the choice of a peep's next destination. Price only comes into play after the peep has decided to go there, and has arrived after the trip, and then discovers he doesn't have enough money to buy that thing. So, the important takeaways here are that:
1) peeps don't realize they're broke---the desire to leave the park is a function of time, not money
2) ride/shop pricing has zero effect on their popularity
3) if you have a bunch of broke peeps wandering around, it's because you took their money too fast.

As to ATMs, only a very small fraction of all peeps will ever use an ATM. This actually makes sense because if you could make them all do it, you'd have unlimited money. In general, even if your park is heaven on earth, only a few percent of all your peeps will ever use an ATM, so basically you're only source of income is the money peeps bring in with them. The few who use ATMs are just lagniappe.

So you're playing for pocket money. Which means that your monthly income is NOT set by prices but by the rate at which new peeps enter the park, bringing new money in with them. All parks have a peep capacity, either set by the user or the "natural" capacity which is some multiple of park rating. Once a park reaches its capacity, no new peeps can enter until some old peeps leave. Because peeps leave as a function of time, the only way to increase the rate of new peeps entering, and thus to increase your monthly income, is to increase park capacity, so more peeps are leaving per month, allowing more peeps to enter per month. But the higher you make your park rating, the happier everybody becomes, so the longer they'll stay. So increasing capacity ultimately runs into diminishing returns.

I agree that they are predictable in a stupid way. I know in advance that a guest with less than 2 euro/dollar/whatever in their pocket will look allover the park for something to do. I can't do anything about their lack of common sense, so setting things "to their liking" doesn't apply.

Of course they have destinations in mind, however the process that calculates their decisions does not make sense. It seems they take one decision at a time. Would be more efficient if they had like a 5 step plan.

As for the use of ATM's and leaving or staying in the park, I disagree.
All the issue's I encountered goes into guest being less happy.
"Oh no, I can't afford Insanity", "Chief Beef 45 is a rip-off" and so on.
These are all false positives, contributing to the unhappy thoughts they have about the park. There is no use for a system message telling me that guests think Chief Beef is expensive while they are created by broke guests.
I think that if an ATM is used 2000 times a year, it's far from being useless. Rather have a group stay around for 90 minutes than groups walking in and out after 30.

Non of my rides have insane high prices, some even could go up about 50% if I didn't agree with myself on having a max price for rides.
Shops same thing.
3) if you have a bunch of broke peeps wandering around, it's because you took their money too fast.
How did you come about the information that guests can spent their money too fast?
 
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May have been lazy not looking passed post older than 2 months.
I just pointed you to the threads in case you were interested in reading them

Also these post mostly describe issue's not related to mine.
at least this one specifically https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...anges-to-Peep-Decision-Making-to-go-on-Rides?

I agree that they are predictable in a stupid way. I know in advance that a guest with less than 2 euro/dollar/whatever in their pocket will look allover the park for something to do. I can't do anything about their lack of common sense, so setting things "to their liking" doesn't apply.
I think Bullethead was trying to explain that you might be setting your prices too high... oh but I see you are saying your prices are not too high, which is why it would help if you were more detailed and show us your park... also there have been some bugs reported since the latest patch about guests complaining about prices... maybe thats the issue?? try checking the bugs reporting section

Of course they have destinations in mind, however the process that calculates their decisions does not make sense. It seems they take one decision at a time. Would be more efficient if they had like a 5 step plan.
Guests are already a major cause of lag in this game, it would be nearly impossible to make guests think 5 steps ahead

As for the use of ATM's and leaving or staying in the park, I disagree.
I think that if an ATM is used 2000 times a year, it's far from being useless. Rather have a group stay around for 90 minutes than groups walking in and out after 30.
What? Bullethead did not say ATMs are useless, they are very very important, but If guests used ATMs more frequently the game would be too easy as you would make too much money

All the issue's I encountered goes into guest being less happy.
"Oh no, I can't afford Insanity", "Chief Beef 45 is a rip-off" and so on.
These are all false positives, contributing to the unhappy thoughts they have about the park. There is no use for a system message telling me that guests think Chief Beef is expensive while they are created by broke guests.
This is something that has been discussed before, many people think that guests in PC are not great, but it is not easy to create a simulation game with 15,000 guests that each have varrying habits. I too wish things could be better, but this is a minor detail compared to some of the other flaws in the game. Management in general is pretty weak, and it would help if the devs could better balance things like finances and prestige.

Again, I am not 100% certain on this as it seems like a new bug but, there have been some bugs reported since the latest patch about guests complaining about prices... maybe thats the issue?? try checking the bugs reporting section

Non of my rides have insane high prices, some even could go up about 50% if I didn't agree with myself on having a max price for rides.
Shops same thing.
I'm not sure what the problem is, are you playing a specific career level or challenge mode?? what difficulty? since your not giving us much info about your park, all we can do is guess

How did you come about the information that guests can spent their money too fast?
I did show you the older threads... lol


Maybe you could be a little more detailed by telling us about your park and/or uploading your park for us to see?
 
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What? Bullethead did not say ATMs are useless, they are very very important, but If guests used ATMs more frequently the game would be too easy as you would make too much money
As to ATMs, only a very small fraction of all peeps will ever use an ATM. This actually makes sense because if you could make them all do it, you'd have unlimited money. In general, even if your park is heaven on earth, only a few percent of all your peeps will ever use an ATM, so basically you're only source of income is the money peeps bring in with them. The few who use ATMs are just lagniappe.


Seems like he didn't think ATM were that useful.

This is something that has been discussed before, many people think that guests in PC are not great, but it is not easy to create a simulation game with 15,000 guests that each have varrying habits. I too wish things could be better, but this is a minor detail compared to some of the other flaws in the game. Management in general is pretty weak, and it would help if the devs could better balance things like finances and prestige.

Again, I am not 100% certain on this as it seems like a new bug but, there have been some bugs reported since the latest patch about guests complaining about prices... maybe thats the issue?? try checking the bugs reporting section

I'm not sure what the problem is, are you playing a specific career level or challenge mode?? what difficulty? since your not giving us much info about your park, all we can do is guess

I did show you the older threads... lol


Maybe you could be a little more detailed by telling us about your park and/or uploading your park for us to see?

Agreed that guests that require too much computing power is a no go at this time. However better performing guests could make management better. Getting false positives is just annoying.

I honestly do not think this is a bug, it's just guests behavior.
Seeing guests doing what they do in any mode I play, so I assume it's not something I do specifically.
 
Guests are already a major cause of lag in this game


How do you know this? I mean, I keep hearing you say this, but are the guest decisions really using much CPU power?

Guest behaviour is pretty weird in general and not in a good way. Some examples of issues I see:

#1 Guests head to shops/ utilities miles away when there's the exact same shop much, much closer (same prices, no line).

#2 It doesn't make sense not only if you consider there's a closer alternative. Who decides to walk halfway across a park to visit Pipshot Water 354? The main decision making should be what ride do they want to go on. If they're hungry they should find something between the point they are now and the ride they're headed to (or in close proximity).

#3 Even worse: Some guests take the Monorail to visit shops on the other side of the park when there's another copy of that shop right outside the station. Also a "classic": Instead of walking to a ride some guests will walk in the other direction and take the monorail to go to that ride. The distance is roughly the same and they don't realise they'd be much faster walking. (Plus, I strongly suspect most guests ride my monorail just for the heck of it.)

#4 Guests change their mind (=destination) every couple steps. This results in weird movements from some guests which keep changing directions. I'm not sure, maybe it's a good thing they don't stick with their stupid decisions (see 1-3) but it makes the whole decision making process seem random.

#5 Ultimately the guests will stick with a decison. As far as I can tell the only decisions that get locked without any chance of changing guests minds are water rides or a big coaster. Which is fine (see 2.) but there's a tendency to neglect thirst or toilet needs until everyone in the group is miserable. If there's a convenient option to satisfy needs, guests should do it. Don't walk past the toilets, just take a quick bathroom break, then you can go on the logflume!

Part of problem might be how the groups are handled. Giving each guest individual needs sounds great in theory, but in the current system I only see downsides. It makes decision making more complicated and is likely to be a cause of issues #4 and #5 (I'm only speculating here). If after all the calculations guest behaviour is still mostly random it seems like a huge waste of CPU power (regardless of a possible impact on fps).

I really hope the devs will come up with solutions because these issues are really bothering me. I love many aspects of this game but watching guests kills the immersion.
 
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Agreed on what seeker939 said.

If people are worried that optimizing guest behavior will kill fps, maybe start by reducing amount of scenery/building pieces first.

Even though the way guests navigate through the park isn't a game breaking deal for me, it does annoy me when vendors get problems with motivation because lack if costumers.
I rather see better guests decisions than a smoothing of coasters.
 
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