Guilds/Clans System with details as to how it could work and not compromise the direction of the game.

[Captain Hooch]

Guilds/Clans System with details as to how it could work and not compromise the direction of the game.

I know it's been stated that Braben and the group don't want to to do in game support for player factions because this isn't Eve and other such reasons. Well it can be done without making it anything that would compromise the game.


Creating a Fleet

First off Let's not call it A guild, a clan, a corporation, or a faction. Let's call it a Fleet.

Any player who is currently not in a Fleet can start a Fleet for a registration free of 10 million credits.

They must then begin recruiting people to their Fleet. If they fail to recruit anyone after one week or they become the only member in their fleet their fleet is automatically disbanded.

If the owner of the Fleet wishes to leave the fleet they can disband the whole fleet or pass ownership to another player in their Fleet.

If that Fleet has its own minor faction earned through the Fleet system and the Fleet looses all its members then the minor faction will dissolve. In the case of very small Fleets a local station news bulletin will read "(Fleet Name) merged with (name of next most powerful faction in the system) after (Days:Months:Years) of operation." In the case of very large Fleets like GalCop, The Code, SDC, The Fuel Rats maybe a Galnet article will be made should they disband and lose their minor faction


Fleet Advantages

Fleet Chat. Fleet chat which would be activated by /f before a message would let you communicate with fleet members from anywhere in the galaxy.

FoF Identification: Friend or Foe Identification Colours on the hud: Fleet Members & Allied Fleets = Green. Hostile Fleets = Red.

Fleet Friends: New section on Friends/Contacts list for Fleet Members to see whos online sorted 0-9-A-Z with rank getting priority

Fleet Ranks: Fleets will have their own ranks which will change a pilots [CMDR] tag before their name which helps with moderation of the fleet and making the chain of command visible.

• Fleet Admiral[FADM] = Owner. = Full Control over the Fleet
• Admiral [ADML] = Second in Command = Can Invite People to Fleet, Kick People from the Fleet, & Promote up to FCMD rank automatically becomes FADM if FADM leaves Fleet without disbanding it.
• Captain [CPTN] = High Ranking Officer = Can Invite People to the Fleet as ENSN, Kick People below their rank, promote ENSN rank to FCMD
• Fleet Commander [FCMD] = Regular Member = Can Invite People to the Fleet as ENSN (this can be toggled off by the FADM)
• Ensign [ENSN] = New Member = No privileges

Fleet Policies: The FADM can set policies for their fleet which can make them more or less attractive to members.

• Declare War = Your Fleet can declare war on another Fleet making that Fleet's members always appear as hostile on your radar and you as hostile on theirs, however in most cases its still a crime to fight factions you're at war with.
• Propose Peace = If your fleet is at war with another fleet you can propose peace if accepted you no longer appear hostile to each other
• Propose Alliance = Propose an alliance with another Fleet, makes them appear green on your radar for easy identification.
• Allied Benefits = If the fleet has a minor faction and is the controlling faction for a station they can extend their benefits to their allies.
• Fleet Fines & Penalties = The FADM can set up fines or penalties for their fleet. Such as if one fleet member attacks another they can be fined or auto kicked from the fleet, if they kill another fleet member they could become responsible for that Fleet Members rebuy costs. these are options enabled or disabled by the FADM
• Duels = If two or more fleet members have "Report Crimes Against Me" off on their functions tab they can freely attack each other without facing a Fleet Fine or Penalty
• Open Enrollment = If enabled players who don't have a fleet will be able to see this fleet from a new section on station contacts tab called "Fleet Registry" and join it from there at the rank of ENSN
• Fleet Applications = If enabled players who don't have a fleet will be able to see this fleet from a new section on stations contacts called "Fleet Registry" and apply to join the fleet. Anyone in the fleet with rank of CPTN or higher will see the applications in their inbox listing the Player Name & Elite Ranks in Combat, Trade, Exploration, and CQC as well as their current online status and then accept, deny, or message them (if they are online)
• Fleet Fund = This would be where any fines paid to the fleet would go as well as having it set so that up to 5% of profits made by Fleet members can go into the Fleet Fund. Fleet Members could also donate to the Fleet Fund. The FADM can then use the Fleet Fund for the following with each option being something that can be toggled on/off (save for the last one) by the FADM. Fleet Members are never able to take money out of their Fleet Fund to line their own pockets.
  • Percentage of Fund to help cover member rebuy costs
  • Percentage of the Fund given to help members who can't afford their rebuy
  • Percentage of the Fund used to help cover NPC Crew costs
  • Cover Minor Faction Expenses

Becoming a Minor Faction

Once a Fleet has enough members (for the sake of this example let's say 20) they can then become a minor faction for a fee. First the FADM would have to go to the system and station or settlement they wish to designate as their Fleet's home base. Depending upon various factors such as the system, the station, the population, & the number of minor factions already in existence this will change the cost, it could range anywhere from 100 million credits to 10 billion credits to start their faction, naturally any station or settlement that already has a Player Faction present is off limits, as well as any major systems such as Superpower Capitol Systems or Powerplay HQ systems, or any system, station, or settlement that FDev deems as off limits for acquisition by Player Factions.

The FADM would go to the Fleet Registry and apply for minor faction approval. If they have enough members they are granted approval to fund the creation of a Minor Faction.

Funding the Faction means Fleet Members can go to this station/settlement and pay out of their own pocket to contribute to the start up costs, and the FADM can pay start up costs out of the Fleet Fund if money is available. Once the funding has been found the Fleet is now a Minor Faction but they will be the lowest rated minor faction in that station.

The FADM can now go into a special holo-me creator and design the contacts that everyone will see when dealing with this minor faction at the station as well as customize the welcome messages they give pilots who visit the station and look at missions for this faction.

The next step is for the Fleet to become the controlling faction in for that station/settlement. This will be done through standard BGS manipulation.


Controlling Minor Faction Abilities

Once the Fleet's Minor Faction is in control of a station or settlement they get some advantages.

The FADM can set a discount on goods and services for fleet members with the difference coming out of the Fleet Fund

The FADM can set that an amount of all profit made at this station goes into the Fleet Fund but this in turn does raise the buy costs of commodities and lower mission payouts to cover the expense.

Player Fleets your Fleet is at war with can now be attacked without receiving a bounty as they will be flagged as Hostile (powerplay style) when in your territory.


Expanding a Minor Faction

Once your fleets faction is in control of a station and is ready for expansion the FADM can decide if they want to expand in system or expand into a neighboring system.

Peacefully Expanding in system involves picking a station or settlement, costs a moderate fee from the Fleet Fund to finance an election, and sets up the Player Faction as the lowest ranking minor faction in the new settlement or system.

Hostile Expansion in system involves a small fee from the Fleet Fund to fund and trigger a Civil War against the lowest minor faction at the station or settlement you wish to expand to, however if you win you become the 2nd lowest faction in that station or settlement and become the lowest faction in any other stations or settlements they had a stake in.

Peacefully Expanding to a neighboring system involves spending a very large amount of money from the Fleet Fund to become the lowest ranking minor faction at a station or settlement in an neighboring system

Hostile Expansion to a neighboring system involves spending a moderate to large amount of money from the Fleet Fund to fund and trigger a War in the new system which if won will set the minor faction up as the 2nd lowest minor faction at all stations or settlements. This however will also trigger an article on Galnet to be posted mentioning the hostile invasion of another system so players and other fleets may choose to come help or fight your faction.


Losing your Minor Faction

If the BGS is manipulated enough to drive your faction out of a system your minor faction is lost in that system as well as any profits your fleet fund was getting. If driven from all systems you have stake in then your minor faction is disbanded and your fleet fund is emptied to nothing.
Possibilities for the Future

This is all stuff that could be implemnted later after the Fleets system is added (if its added) to expand upon its functionality

Mega Ships: Using your Fleet Fund you can comission a Mega Ship and customize and upgrade it. The FADM and ADMLs can then call in this Mega Ship at any time as long as it is within range of their location.

• The Mega Ship can be set to Fleet Only, Fleet & Allies Only, or Everyone.
• It will attack hostile fleets and ships that come too close to it
• It can be called in RES sites and Conflict Zones to aid your fleet with fire support and a quick resupply point
• It can be called in during PVP
• It can be destroyed
• It can be told to move to another system and anyone on board will be hyperspaced to a new system with the Mega Ship
• It will have three variants, which will have docking for Small, Medium, & Large Vessels
  • Combat Mega Ship: Resupply & Repair Market: Can Dock & Store 6 Ships, Heavy Armour, Heavy Firepower, Low Jump Range
  • Cargo Mega Ship: Commodities Market & Repairs: Can Dock & Store 10 Ships, Medium Armour, Medium Firepower, Medium Jump Range
  • Science Mega Ship: Universal Cartographics, Resupply, & Repair: Can Dock 4 & Store Ships, Light Armour, Light Firepower, High Jump Range

Becomming a Power: Once a Player Fleet has become a Minor Faction and their Minor Faction has grown large enough they can apply to become a Powerplay Faction (with FDev Approval)

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Oh look it's the Guild/Clan thread again.

It doesn't matter what you call it, it's exactly Guild/Clan mechanics you want in this game.

This is Elite. Let's keep it Elite. It is not, nor ever should be, not-Elite. For the umpteenth time, proposals like these in many different but ultimately similar forms have been put forth in countless previous threads, and always end up with the same old arguments and counterarguments. Please stop trying to turn Elite into something not-Elite. :/

There are other space games with full-on Guild/Clan support built into them. This just happens to be a space game where that is not the case, and by golly I hope with great sincerity that Frontier keep it that way.

Perhaps tomorrow once I've read the probably outraged responses to this reply I'm typing now, I'll be bothered to dredge up the links to what David Braben thinks of guild/clan/whatever mechanics. The tl;dr is "It doesn't feel right [for this game]".

 

[Riverside]

I'm afraid I'm not even keen on the use of wing beacons, let alone guilds (or Fleets)

Clearly you put a lot of thought into this but I don't see how your proposal differs significantly from other Guild type proposals (although calling it a Fleet is more in-keeping with the game).

A Guild with advantages in organisation & asset sharing over a loose group or an individual immediately puts the individual at a disadvantage. The Guild is likely to be far more successful at taking and holding ground, until it comes across another similarly sized guild. This is great for the guilds but squeezes out the individual.

So fundamentally I would be against large scale in-game organisation and asset sharing without a commensurate disadvantage to being in a guild/Fleet.

Could you suggest such a balancing factor?

 

[AJW]

No. Just no. If you want to order minions around, find another game.

 

[Captain Hooch]

Oh look it's the Guild/Clan thread again.

It doesn't matter what you call it, it's exactly Guild/Clan mechanics you want in this game.

This is Elite. Let's keep it Elite. It is not, nor ever should be, not-Elite. For the umpteenth time, proposals like these in many different but ultimately similar forms have been put forth in countless previous threads, and always end up with the same old arguments and counterarguments. Please stop trying to turn Elite into something not-Elite. :/

There are other space games with full-on Guild/Clan support built into them. This just happens to be a space game where that is not the case, and by golly I hope with great sincerity that Frontier keep it that way.

Perhaps tomorrow once I've read the probably outraged responses to this reply I'm typing now, I'll be bothered to dredge up the links to what David Braben thinks of guild/clan/whatever mechanics. The tl;dr is "It doesn't feel right [for this game]".

Well heres my argument.

People have made player groups. Big ones, popular ones, F-Dev Recognizes these groups, FDev let one of these groups become a Powerplay Faction, and several others have their own Minor Faction. What is so wrong with offering players the mechanics to not only create their group in game, keep track of and manage their group in game, and become a minor faction? Seriously everyone is screaming NO at something we are already seeing starting to happen why not just go ahead and flesh out some game mechanics for it?

I'm afraid I'm not even keen on the use of wing beacons, let alone guilds (or Fleets)

Clearly you put a lot of thought into this but I don't see how your proposal differs significantly from other Guild type proposals (although calling it a Fleet is more in-keeping with the game).

A Guild with advantages in organisation & asset sharing over a loose group or an individual immediately puts the individual at a disadvantage. The Guild is likely to be far more successful at taking and holding ground, until it comes across another similarly sized guild. This is great for the guilds but squeezes out the individual.

So fundamentally I would be against large scale in-game organisation and asset sharing without a commensurate disadvantage to being in a guild/Fleet.

Could you suggest such a balancing factor?

Uh the balancing factor is that you don't have to deal with the interpersonal politics that come with a guild. If Fleet A and Fleet B get at each other you're not dragged into a war between two guilds, and players outside of guilds/fleets can actively manipulate the same background sim the guild players are manipulating when they try to grow their faction either helping or hindering them. Also to balance out the Fleet Funds idea I proposed that can be used to help guild members they could allow for additional insurance and cargo insurance to be purchased in game so that Fleets/Guilds/Clans don't get an unfair advantage in the rebuy department, but on the other hand were talking about people who are helping each other out and have worked to get that.

No. Just no. If you want to order minions around, find another game.

Who said anything about minions? I'm talking about a way for players to form groups in game, organize said groups in game, and grow their groups in game. Something THEY ALREADY DO WITH 3RD PARTY TOOLS and with the BGS for the few groups Frontier has allowed to have a Minor Faction named after them with. If Frontier doesn't want to allow guilds they are doing a really good job of sending mixed signals by allowing Minor Factions like the Fuel Rats for example to have their own minor faction and station and for the whole thing where a player group got their own Powerplay Faction. Seriously read what I typed and try to respond again.

 

[Riverside]

You are saying the downside to being in a guild is having to deal with being in a guild?

Hmm..

 

[Captain Hooch]

You are saying the downside to being in a guild is having to deal with being in a guild?

Hmm..

Ever tried to function with a bunch of other players in an MMO? Some people love that , other people just like to be solo.

Personally I'm a solo person, but I can see why guilds and becoming a minor faction should be a thing, as long as they implemented correctly, and I fully support that.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Well heres my argument.

People have made player groups. Big ones, popular ones, F-Dev Recognizes these groups, FDev let one of these groups become a Powerplay Faction, and several others have their own Minor Faction. What is so wrong with offering players the mechanics to not only create their group in game, keep track of and manage their group in game, and become a minor faction? Seriously everyone is screaming NO at something we are already seeing starting to happen why not just go ahead and flesh out some game mechanics for it?

And my standard response to that standard spiel is this:

Sure. People have managed to club together out-of-game. It doesn't make it a guild or clan within the game though. Frontier recognises that people have clubbed together outside of the game. They recognise groups like the Fuel Rats, Canonn, and whoever. And they have already responded - not by introducing in-game guild/clan controls, but they handled it nicely in-game by way of the in-game NPC minor faction system and they created a new in-game NPC Power.

That should have been the big hint. The game is coded at the back-end such that in-game guild/clan support isn't practical and would be helluva expensive in terms of development time to implement. That's a technical and financial and practical reason right off the bat.

More reasons are, that guilds/clans are not right for this game. They work for games like Eve Online and others, but for this one? No. This is a game based on Elite. It is Elite. Adding that kind of thing would very much remove the Elite from it. I backed an Elite game. I backed it because nostalgia, and I backed it specifically because at the time David Braben was saying that guild/clan support in-game would not be a thing because "It doesn't feel right." And he'd be right.

I repeat - there are other games with guild/clan support. This isn't one of them, and it should forever stay that way. This is not yer typical game and it was always going to be sometimes frustratingly and sometimes awesomely eccentric, and it is. You want groups/clans support in a space game? Go play Eve. It's right there waiting.

Who said anything about minions? I'm talking about a way for players to form groups in game, organize said groups in game, and grow their groups in game. Something THEY ALREADY DO WITH 3RD PARTY TOOLS

Awesome! This can already be achieved with 3rd party tools out of game! No need then for doing it in-game and Frontier can concentrate on making Elite, instead of turning it into Eve-in-a-cockpit.

 

[Xender]

Peoples who don't like guild? Why you fight with that concept? It won't affect you if you don't join the guild... So allow the other to have fun.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Peoples who don't like guild? Why you fight with that concept? It won't affect you if you don't join the guild... So allow the other to have fun.

Are you really suggesting that all unaffiliated players would be completely unaffected if Guilds / Corps / Clans were implemented in the game?

 

[goemon]

Seriously everyone is screaming NO at something we are already seeing starting to happen why not just go ahead and flesh out some game mechanics for it?

the nice thing about the current player grouped backed minor faction design is

a) it is fully inclusive. any player can get allied, can get "access", can help to expand it or hinder its ways. i prefer the inclusive way above your suggestion of people being able to accept someone or kick him.

b) by being very unspecific, the current minor faction implementation meets a broad sample of player groups. does your fleet concept work for the buckyball racers? for the fuel rats? for Alliance Elite Diplomatic Corp? For the canonn? i don't think so.

 

[Captain Hooch]

And my standard response to that standard spiel is this:

Sure. People have managed to club together out-of-game. It doesn't make it a guild or clan within the game though. Frontier recognises that people have clubbed together outside of the game. They recognise groups like the Fuel Rats, Canonn, and whoever. And they have already responded - not by introducing in-game guild/clan controls, but they handled it nicely in-game by way of the in-game NPC minor faction system and they created a new in-game NPC Power.

That should have been the big hint. The game is coded at the back-end such that in-game guild/clan support isn't practical and would be helluva expensive in terms of development time to implement. That's a technical and financial and practical reason right off the bat.

More reasons are, that guilds/clans are not right for this game. They work for games like Eve Online and others, but for this one? No. This is a game based on Elite. It is Elite. Adding that kind of thing would very much remove the Elite from it. I backed an Elite game. I backed it because nostalgia, and I backed it specifically because at the time David Braben was saying that guild/clan support in-game would not be a thing because "It doesn't feel right." And he'd be right.

I repeat - there are other games with guild/clan support. This isn't one of them, and it should forever stay that way. This is not yer typical game and it was always going to be sometimes frustratingly and sometimes awesomely eccentric, and it is. You want groups/clans support in a space game? Go play Eve. It's right there waiting.



Awesome! This can already be achieved with 3rd party tools out of game! No need then for doing it in-game and Frontier can concentrate on making Elite, instead of turning it into Eve-in-a-cockpit.

And again my suggestion is based purely upon EVERYTHING frontier has done thus far to support player factions which is COMPLETELY COUNTER TO EVERYTHING THEY HAVE SAID ABOUT NOT WANTING TO DO THEM! Mixed Signals are going on here from Frontier.

At the very least they need to give players the tools they need to organize.

Let them form a Guild. Let them Identify Guild Members on the radar, Let them have a guild chat channel, let them have a whos online list, let them have some moderation in the adding and removal of members as well as passing on ownership. Allow them to ally with other guilds, and go to war with other guilds, and make peace with other guilds. I would be happy with that alone, I only propose the way to become a minor faction thing because of groups like Canon and the Fuel Rats and others who have their own minor factions, and of course if such a thing were added there would need to be ways to manage it.

I still fail to understand how ANYTHING is wrong with this. So I repeat myself. If the becoming a minor faction thing was thrown out the window and we just stuck with a way to Make a Guild, Let people join us, and identify friend foe. It wouldn't hurt anything. I swear you NOPE people are just screaming No because you can. This is NOT Elite, This is not Frontier: Elite 2, this is not Frontier: First Contact. This is Elite Dangerous its a whole new game. Yes its set in the same universe and later down the timeline of the previous titles but that's it. Games evolve, games change, and games grow. If you were really a purist you would have joined those people who got a refund when offline mode was removed. So you can't use that argument here. It's like saying making Fallout 3, NV, and 4 Action RPGs instead of sticking with Top Down Turn Based RPG mechanics ruined those games. You're simply wrong because the games are still great.

Now mind you I can kinda see where you come from with the whole in game mechanics to become a minor faction possibly getting in the way of Frontier's narrative, but also at the same time it could enhance the narrative. It could open new avenues for them to explore. But again at the very least having mechanics to identify and manage guild members and relationships with other guilds is something Elite seriously needs and would benefit from greatly. Not only would this strengthen the community, but it could also strengthen player retention and in a game where people already play this for hundreds if not 1000 hours or more on a game with a 10 year roadmap player retention is something this game is going to really have to look into and Guilds are at even a basic level are a very simple way to do this that won't change a thing for those of us like myself who prefer to stay independent.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And again my suggestion is based purely upon EVERYTHING frontier has done thus far to support player factions which is COMPLETELY COUNTER TO EVERYTHING THEY HAVE SAID ABOUT NOT WANTING TO DO THEM! Mixed Signals are going on here from Frontier.

Player factions have no form of player control, no leadership, no perks - by design.

DBOBE would seem to be rather reticent in facilitating large player groups, especially in terms of territorial control: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJzizYUEF9c;t-19m40s

 

[Xender]

Are you really suggesting that all unaffiliated players would be completely unaffected if Guilds / Corps / Clans were implemented in the game?

Of course it is achievable if Frontier implement "guild" as another layer of gameplay rather than modifying existing gameplay. There will be "guild" which have their players, and they interact each other. Lone player may play in the same way as before "guild" update: explore, grind, trade, etc.

It is also worth to mention that Elite already have communities like The Winged Hussars, Cannon, Border Coalition and others. They exist, they cooperate and even compete from time time on BGS. Sadly those groups must organise only via external tools, like forums and websites because there is no support for it in game. Groups aka "guild" could also compete, but only via BGS or via arranged PVP. If Frontier could add proper group-guild gameplay it will enhance their experience and wont affect other lone players.


It is like with alien mysteries, it already exist but players must use external tools to participate in it. Groups the same. They must use external tools to organise themselves. David Braben, Frontier and even Sandro Sammarco and even you Robert may stubborn as hell but this is natural for online games that player groups aka "guilds" will form someday and this is already happening but is not properly supported by game.


It never was may idea to alter existing minor faction/BGS system for guild purpose. It should be supported as another layer of gameplay, competition and playstyle. It may be called "Faction Supporters" or whatever.

 

[Captain Hooch]

Of course it is achievable if Frontier implement "guild" as another layer of gameplay rather than modifying existing gameplay. There will be "guild" which have their players, and they interact each other. Lone player may play in the same way as before "guild" update: explore, grind, trade, etc.

It is also worth to mention that Elite already have communities like The Winged Hussars, Cannon, Border Coalition and others. They exist, they cooperate and even compete from time time on BGS. Sadly those groups must organise only via external tools, like forums and websites because there is no support for it in game. Groups aka "guild" could also compete, but only via BGS or via arranged PVP. If Frontier could add proper group-guild gameplay it will enhance their experience and wont affect other lone players.


It is like with alien mysteries, it already exist but players must use external tools to participate in it. Groups the same. They must use external tools to organise themselves. David Braben, Frontier and even Sandro Sammarco and even you Robert may stubborn as hell but this is natural for online games that player groups aka "guilds" will form someday and this is already happening but is not properly supported by game.


It never was may idea to alter existing minor faction/BGS system for guild purpose. It should be supported as another layer of gameplay, competition and playstyle. It may be called "Faction Supporters" or whatever.

Very well put and Elite is very likely the only open world MMO game on the market right now that doesn't support guilds, and that's frankly crazy. Players want to be able to organize, they will organize whether you let them or not, so why make it harder on them? That's just ignoring your community and that hurts long term player retention in a game that is constantly evolving and updating.

 

[Xender]

Very well put and Elite is very likely the only open world MMO game on the market right now that doesn't support guilds, and that's frankly crazy. Players want to be able to organize, they will organize whether you let them or not, so why make it harder on them? That's just ignoring your community and that hurts long term player retention in a game that is constantly evolving and updating.

I agree with, that proper tools and gameplay is required. Furthermore I may even pay for special DLC called "Guilds"... Frontier! Here is my dollars, just give me guilds!

 

[Robert Maynard]

Very well put and Elite is very likely the only open world MMO game on the market right now that doesn't support guilds, and that's frankly crazy. Players want to be able to organize, they will organize whether you let them or not, so why make it harder on them? That's just ignoring your community and that hurts long term player retention in a game that is constantly evolving and updating.

By design. Frontier's approach to multi-player would seem to be a bit different to those other games - and, even if a Guild feature were to be introduced, I'd not expect it to be a cookie cutter implementation copied from other games.

 

[Captain Thea Kreutzer]

I dont get why some people fight against making bgs better i like this idea except for the ranks they could use some work

 

[Robert Maynard]

Of course it is achievable if Frontier implement "guild" as another layer of gameplay rather than modifying existing gameplay. There will be "guild" which have their players, and they interact each other. Lone player may play in the same way as before "guild" update: explore, grind, trade, etc.

Sounds a lot like Powerplay....

 

[Robert Maynard]

I dont get why some people fight against making bgs better i like this idea except for the ranks they could use some work

.... because "better" is entirely subjective and not everyone agrees on its definition (in the context of Guild features).