General / Off-Topic Hacking or cheating in Elite Dangerous

[lysan]

So in Elite Dangerous we now have a lot of 3rd party apps, some helps you with trading, some can assist you with navigating and everything else in between.

Why am I writing this post? because it's not very clear to me what is considered a hack/cheating, and what is considered ok to use. Especially in ED.

VA - In Voice Attack you can set up the computer to do a lot of commands, it can activate many functions as a macro and the most skilled programmers can make it do things you simply can't do with the vanilla game.

Would this be considered hacking or cheating?

I believe it's time for developers like Frontier Development to clarify in details what they see as cheating, because hacking is pretty simple. When you alter the original code, you hack the software. So the question here is all the apps that runs as an overlay on the original software. This is not hacking, as you do not change the original code, but it could be cheating.

Instead of the usual silence, FDEV should engage in a positive debate, what they consider cheating and what actions they what to take to prevent it from happening.

This is a list of many of the tools and apps you can download and use with ED.

http://edcodex.info/?m=tools

 

[Ian Skippy]

So in Elite Dangerous we now have a lot of 3rd party apps, some helps you with trading, some can assist you with navigating and everything else in between.

Why am I writing this post? because it's not very clear to me what is considered a hack/cheating, and what is considered ok to use. Especially in ED.

VA - In Voice Attack you can set up the computer to do a lot of commands, it can activate many functions as a macro and the most skilled programmers can make it do things you simply can't do with the vanilla game.

Would this be considered hacking or cheating?

I believe it's time for developers like Frontier Development to clarify in details what they see as cheating, because hacking is pretty simple. When you alter the original code, you hack the software. So the question here is all the apps that runs as an overlay on the original software. This is not hacking, as you do not change the original code, but it could be cheating.

Instead of the usual silence, FDEV should engage in a positive debate, what they consider cheating and what actions they what to take to prevent it from happening.

This is a list of many of the tools and apps you can download and use with ED.

http://edcodex.info/?m=tools

Considering FD actively communicates with these tool makers and helps by making various variables accessible to them, I'd say it is probably not cheating...

 

[lysan]

Considering FD actively communicates with these tool makers and helps by making various variables accessible to them, I'd say it is probably not cheating...

True, but not all of them and it's not clear what FDEV support and what they don't support.
A seal/certificate from FDEV would be great, as we would know it's in compliance with the TOS and we can use the apps without risking FDEV suddenly close your account.

 

[Boomer Kay]

True, but not all of them and it's not clear what FDEV support and what they don't support.
A seal/certificate from FDEV would be great, as we would know it's in compliance with the TOS and we can use the apps without risking FDEV suddenly close your account.

There's a list of apps that use the API in a way condoned by FDEV. It's somewhere at eddb.io?

That's the list from the forums:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-for-Elite-Dangerous-Community-driven-website


There was a lenghty discussion on the forums about community tool support, which was actually the reason I signed up to the forums. I was young and naive. ^^

(here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/218658-Open-Letter-to-Frontier-Developments )

 

[lysan]

There's a list of apps that use the API in a way condoned by FDEV. It's somewhere at eddb.io?

There was a lenghty discussion on the forums about community tool support, which was actually the reason I signed up to the forums. I was young and naive. ^^

Yes, I know, I miss a clear statement from FDEV regarding these tools, there is non.
We are all in the dark regarding this, and if you use some of them and suddenly FDEV change their minds, they could in theory close your account just like that.

That is why a clear, approval of a application should be issued. It could be a certificate stating that it do not violate the TOS.
As it is now, we know nothing, and it's all kind of fluffy and very muddy regarding where the line in drawn.

We do know that if you alternate the code, you are clearly violating the TOS, however what if you use an app that only use a screen overlay to do whatever it's supposed to do? then what?

 

[Boomer Kay]

Edited my post with the discussion.
There's a statement from Zac in regards to tools that use the iphone api.
I campaigned for more FD involvement in the tool community as well, but that was about as succesful as my "a pony for everyone" campaign.
Somewhere between having to dedicate ressources (coding is the fast part, idiot proofing and approving it takes more time) and favoring some tools over others or something. ^^

 

[lysan]

Edited my post with the discussion.
There's a statement from Zac in regards to tools that use the iphone api.
I campaigned for more FD involvement in the tool community as well, but that was about as succesful as my "a pony for everyone" campaign.
Somewhere between having to dedicate ressources (coding is the fast part, idiot proofing and approving it takes more time) and favoring some tools over others or something. ^^

I'm completely with you in this case, my worries now is that it's so fluffy an unclear what can be considered a cheat and what is ok to use.
FDEV can just strike randomly and we would not know we actually was violating the TOS. To prevent this from happening FDEV should put a system in place so that their customers can clearly see if they are according to the TOS.

and the discussion is locked, so they clearly don't want to talk about it, but at some point they will need to address it. It's better to do it now before the perfect storm arrives

 

[Boomer Kay]

I'm completely with you in this case, my worries now is that it's so fluffy an unclear what can be considered a cheat and what is ok to use.
FDEV can just strike randomly and we would not know we actually was violating the TOS. To prevent this from happening FDEV should put a system in place so that their customers can clearly see if they are according to the TOS.

I'd go with the ED Codex website.
It's on the Forums, so FD is aware of it.
If they find offense in any program you use from there and block you, you can always open a complaint with CS to get your stuff back.

 

[lysan]

I'd go with the ED Codex website.
It's on the Forums, so FD is aware of it.
If they find offense in any program you use from there and block you, you can always open a complaint with CS to get your stuff back.

Yes, however there are many cases where FDEV flip flop around and we should not be in doubt if we are on the right side of the TOS, they should then state that if it's on the ED Codex it's ok to use.

However there are also the people who are coding for themselves, like VA and automating a lot in ED, what is considered cheating and what is not?

 

[SMcA]

Yes, however there are many cases where FDEV flip flop around and we should not be in doubt if we are on the right side of the TOS, they should then state that if it's on the ED Codex it's ok to use.

However there are also the people who are coding for themselves, like VA and automating a lot in ED, what is considered cheating and what is not?

It's like getting blood from a stone asking FD.
I think Boomer Kay's first reply is probably close to the mark. You could throw all the apps into the air and tell FD to keep the ones they don't want used. All the ones that fall to the ground are okay to use.

I would use my own discretion and not use it if you think it is an exploit. That way the worst that will happen is it will be banned and you will have to stop using it.

 

[Boomer Kay]

That way the worst that will happen is it will be banned and you will have to stop using it.

I got from the 1337 h4x0r sites that ED is using some watchdog program, so I guess once illegal tools are spotted, you'd get a warning pretty fast.

 

[Minonian]

These tools and web pages like voice attack inara various resource and trade finding are official, and other's acknowledged, accepted. It's safe to say you using it with their blessing.

 

[Zeeman]

So in Elite Dangerous we now have a lot of 3rd party apps, some helps you with trading, some can assist you with navigating and everything else in between.

Why am I writing this post? because it's not very clear to me what is considered a hack/cheating, and what is considered ok to use. Especially in ED.

VA - In Voice Attack you can set up the computer to do a lot of commands, it can activate many functions as a macro and the most skilled programmers can make it do things you simply can't do with the vanilla game.

Would this be considered hacking or cheating?

I believe it's time for developers like Frontier Development to clarify in details what they see as cheating, because hacking is pretty simple. When you alter the original code, you hack the software. So the question here is all the apps that runs as an overlay on the original software. This is not hacking, as you do not change the original code, but it could be cheating.

Instead of the usual silence, FDEV should engage in a positive debate, what they consider cheating and what actions they what to take to prevent it from happening.

This is a list of many of the tools and apps you can download and use with ED.

http://edcodex.info/?m=tools

Pretty much a list of stuff that should be part of the game, not third party apps.

I love this game, but the fact I still have to Alt+tab to 3rd party apps to get the most of it hurts my head.

Z...

 

[lysan]

It's like getting blood from a stone asking FD.
I think Boomer Kay's first reply is probably close to the mark. You could throw all the apps into the air and tell FD to keep the ones they don't want used. All the ones that fall to the ground are okay to use.

I would use my own discretion and not use it if you think it is an exploit. That way the worst that will happen is it will be banned and you will have to stop using it.

I got a slap on my hands for posting an app, nothing officially has even been stated, only rumors. If FD can do that, then they can also ban people as they see fit, without any notice. The players and also in these cases need to know if they are violating the TOS or not.

If FDEV want to hit people randomly they will be walking on a slippery slope that you blow up in their faces pretty quickly.
That is why I would like to get some clarification in these matters so we all can enjoy the game, without wondering if we are violating the TOS.

It's in Frontiers best interest to set the record straight once and for all.

 

[lysan]

These tools and web pages like voice attack inara various resource and trade finding are official, and other's acknowledged, accepted. It's safe to say you using it with their blessing.

I understand that, so if someone, lets say program VA to automate something, it's ok, unless FD say it's not, but by what guidelines do we know if it's ok? until now it's very uncertain and I can't see any clear guidelines regarding this.

What is 100% clear is that if you alternate the code of the vanilla game, you're violating the TOS, everything else is up to discussion, but then again it's not. In case FDEV finds something not according to the TOS they can just pull the plug of any users, without any clarification. To me this is not the right way to do business.

 

[SMcA]

I got from the 1337 h4x0r sites that ED is using some watchdog program, so I guess once illegal tools are spotted, you'd get a warning pretty fast.

Before release FD said no scraping as in a trading tool that downloaded all the commodities at a station. (I miss that one.) But then they created the journal and it is okay to use the data they supply. But the recent exploit that would give you a level 5 engineering upgrade for the price of a level one is an obvious exploit. FD were right to take away all the ill gotten gains. I don't think anyone was banned though.
It doesn't bother me as the only tools I use are databases on the web and SSChanger and the Captain's Log. Neither of which affect others game play.

 

[AJW]

The problem is that asking Frontier to "clarify in details what they see as cheating" is that you are asking them to make hard and fast rules about hypothetical situations. In an environment where technology (including hacker tech) changes, and where even Frontier don't know exactly where the game will be in a few years time. Which means that any hard and fast rules won't be, because they may need changing later due to unforeseen circumstances. You are basically asking for something that can't be done...

 

[Minonian]

I understand that, so if someone, lets say program VA to automate something, it's ok, unless FD say it's not, but by what guidelines do we know if it's ok? until now it's very uncertain and I can't see any clear guidelines regarding this.

Do you meant, we need an official certification bill?

Edit;

What is 100% clear is that if you alternate the code of the vanilla game, you're violating the TOS, everything else is up to discussion, but then again it's not. In case FDEV finds something not according to the TOS they can just pull the plug of any users, without any clarification. To me this is not the right way to do business.

About this, you are right some sort of justification and clarity in the situation is necessary.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Instead of the usual silence, FDEV should engage in a positive debate, what they consider cheating and what actions they what to take to prevent it from happening.

This is a list of many of the tools and apps you can download and use with ED.

http://edcodex.info/?m=tools

Thanks for the link !

 

[lysan]

The problem is that asking Frontier to "clarify in details what they see as cheating" is that you are asking them to make hard and fast rules about hypothetical situations. In an environment where technology (including hacker tech) changes, and where even Frontier don't know exactly where the game will be in a few years time. Which means that any hard and fast rules won't be, because they may need changing later due to unforeseen circumstances. You are basically asking for something that can't be done...

I truly believe it can be done, what we got now are a system where you simply don't know if you're on the right side of the TOS. You could be using something and truly be in good faith that this is ok to use, however FDEV could suddenly change their mind and ban you from accessing the game