Hard Science: The ships in Elite Dangerous already have artificial gravity.

ArmChair physics enthusiast here. :D In reality (by that i mean here, not ED), at any point when thrusting is stopped, the ship is relatively stationary. So at any point thrusting again provides the same artificial sense of gravity. To an outside observer that remains stationary from the "starting point" of the test, the ship will never go faster than the speed of light. But relativity will have time slowing down for the ship; From the ships reference frame wouldn't the acceleration be constant and thus the artificial sense of gravity constant as well, no matter how close to the speed of light it got in the starting reference frame?

The main kicker would be running out of fuel.

Kinetic energy evolves as the half square of inertia times velocity, so yes the main problem with continual acceleration as you reach C would be fuel and energy expenditure, for the exponentially-rising cost of momentum.

Our first kg-m/s of momentum off the launchpad costs just 1/2 a Joule, but the second identical unit costs 2 J, a third costs 4.5 J and so on - the same unit of momentum costing ever more the faster you go. So you eventually reach a velocity where at another kg-m/s of momentum would cost more energy than you have stored on-board.

If however we suppose that your ship was powered by vacuum energy (ie. a non-local source), and could keep accelerating forever (ie. a ship powered by an 'inertial motor', breaking momentum symmetry / Newton's 3rd law), then yes you'd continue to feel the same inertia for the same acceleration no matter how close to C you got - in principle, even sailing straight thru it.


FWIW tho the main reason ED is hobbled with space speed limits is FD's decision to base the network model on absolute velocity relative to coordinate space, rather than relative velocities. In ED, two ships (player clients) accelerating side-by-side on the same vector would start to rubber-band as their velocity exceeded the network latency limits, even tho they're stationary relative to one another.. it's just bad design, over gameplay considerations. FE2 / FFE are vastly better games, hence why i can't enjoy ED.
 
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Having taken college physics, yes, I'd agree with OP gravity could be simulated as long as the desired acceleration vector for the pilot was maintained. FFE used acceleration at sublight speeds, however overall Elite lore never made it a feature to maintain 1G. Often the G's varied wildly. It was assumed your remlock chair or suit would help you stay in place in the chair and certain properties of the suit and chair would help buffer you through the varying G's of force. ED seems to have done away with constant acceleration with some kind of "maximum" speed characteristic per ship. Still, ED supercruise intrasystem is still way faster than the accelerated speeds of FFE where there is none or little newtonian acceleration within the warp bubble. Amazingly supercruise is the biggest leap in space travel tech of the Elite lore and history from 3250 to 3300. It's like up to FFE, Elite only had hyperspace with fusion powered relatively slow intrasystem speed, now ED has both hyperspace and basic warp drive.
 
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Correct. You wouldn't be pulled back down. The ground would come up to meet you because you would still have a lot of sideways momentum. I doubt you could tell the difference between this and gravity.

Well, it depends how high you jump. The outer edge of a rotating circle is travelling faster relative to any inner, smaller circles (think onion rings).
So, imagine a "stationary" mouse is at 6 o'clock, facing left on the ring of a mini space station rotating clockwise... At that instant it would be travelling left with the ring. Now if it jumped up at that point, it would in fact be travelling up and to the left with two vectors combined, giving it a higher velocity than the outer ring alone. It would end up ahead of its original position when it lands even though it jumped up.


Another interesting thing is, if you live on the inside of a rotating ring and run in the same direction as the ring is rotating, you would feel yourself getting heavier the faster you run. However, if you run counter to the direction of the ring's rotation, you would gradually get lighter and lighter until your speed matched that of the rotating ring (in the opposite direction) and you would start to float.
 
in principle, even sailing straight thru it.

Yay! Everything you said makes sense to my enthusiast knowledge. Except that bit. Rather than sailing right through it (and by it, we're talking it's relative speed from the original reference frame), wouldn't it just edge closer and closer to C, become increasingly more massive, and there's some length contraction which I'm aware of, but never really understood.
 
...Don't need gravity to have space legs. Plenty of first person games have had weightless environments and there are always mag boots.

Mag boots are cool. But while it allow to stick to metalic surfaces, it does not solve the weighlessness of the upper body.

And I woul rather go with gecko gloves and shoes, as it works on all surfaces.
 
Another interesting thing is, if you live on the inside of a rotating ring and run in the same direction as the ring is rotating, you would feel yourself getting heavier the faster you run. However, if you run counter to the direction of the ring's rotation, you would gradually get lighter and lighter until your speed matched that of the rotating ring (in the opposite direction) and you would start to float.
What was the radius on the Orbis rings, something like 4km? That would put your tangential velocity for a 1G environment at around 200m/s, so you'd have quite some tolerance in your movement.
 
I'd be very tempted to suggest that FD tweak the lore somewhat on this subject. Not in normal space, don't expect to walk around normally except when docked to a rotating station or landed on a sufficiently massive planetary body. However, in SC it would take very little additional handwavium to suggest that by making the translation of the frame of reference slightly "off" with respect to the apparent normal-space motion then from within that altered frame of reference there could be experienced an effective (although probably less than 1g) "acceleration" that would simulate onboard gravity.

As a practical gameplay matter around "space legs" this would work rather well. You, your crew and your passengers can freely "walk" on the ship for the majority of a journey, returning to their quarters or any other appropriate place for them to take hold and be protected during normal space maneuvering. Keeps the option for floating around your ship to make repairs etc (or EVA for similar purposes) in normal space, makes "passenger space legs" a practical thing. All in all, probably the cleanest solution that doesn't needlessly close off any possibility that FD may want to design in to space legs in the future.
 
I'd be very tempted to suggest that FD tweak the lore somewhat on this subject. Not in normal space, don't expect to walk around normally except when docked to a rotating station or landed on a sufficiently massive planetary body. However, in SC it would take very little additional handwavium to suggest that by making the translation of the frame of reference slightly "off" with respect to the apparent normal-space motion then from within that altered frame of reference there could be experienced an effective (although probably less than 1g) "acceleration" that would simulate onboard gravity.

As a practical gameplay matter around "space legs" this would work rather well. You, your crew and your passengers can freely "walk" on the ship for the majority of a journey, returning to their quarters or any other appropriate place for them to take hold and be protected during normal space maneuvering. Keeps the option for floating around your ship to make repairs etc (or EVA for similar purposes) in normal space, makes "passenger space legs" a practical thing. All in all, probably the cleanest solution that doesn't needlessly close off any possibility that FD may want to design in to space legs in the future.

I actually really like this idea because it means explorers could park their ships nearish a star in supercruise, not close enough to get cooked, but just close enough that they aren't loosing fuel, at which point they could crawl into bed and pass out. Helps you get a good solid dose of normal gravity every night, helps you get a decent night's sleep, and helps make sure you don't oversleep and drain your reactor.
 
Science in science fiction? An oxymoron.

Ok, so when you get space legs and need to repair a system, your engineer floats back through the ship instead of walking?

In reality, if the ship is boost accelerating up to 500 meters per second that's more than fifty x Earth gravity, your engineer would be splatted into jelly on the rear wall.

Magnetic boots? Gravity defying gelsuits?

I never see the point in trying to do hard science in science fiction.

Hard science is for reality. Science fiction is for fantasy.

I would rather have artificial gravity in ships and outpost stations, rather than have to float about with small RCS thrusters all over the place, and risk being splatted against the wall all the time in the name of scientific 'accuracy' or game lore adherence.

This is Elite: Dangerous, not Kerbal space program.
 
-Okay so: the point about hovering is to show that the ships can accelerate upward at a rate of 9 meters per second. (1g) As for lightspeed, you would approach lightspeed after like, a YEAR of constant acceleration. Ships don't need artificial gravity for that long.

Are we talking about planetary or ship reference frames?
 
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First, read Rendezvous with Rama

Second the Coriolis force would apply.


Now that we got that out of the way, only by spinning can you simulate gravity for longer periods of time.
it will be interresting to see how FDEV will solve the problem, maybe they need to add Star Trek gravity who knows :)
 
ArmChair physics enthusiast here. [...] From the ships reference frame wouldn't the acceleration be constant and thus the artificial sense of gravity constant as well, no matter how close to the speed of light it got relative to the starting reference frame?

Yes, this is true.

Kinetic energy evolves as the half square of inertia times velocity, so yes the main problem with continual acceleration as you reach C would be fuel and energy expenditure, for the exponentially-rising cost of momentum.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "inertia", as the word on itself is not very commonly used in physics. Did you mean mass? Or linear momentum? What units does it have?


Our first kg-m/s of momentum off the launchpad costs just 1/2 a Joule, but the second identical unit costs 2 J, a third costs 4.5 J and so on - the same unit of momentum costing ever more the faster you go. So you eventually reach a velocity where at another kg-m/s of momentum would cost more energy than you have stored on-board.

This is equivalent to say "you will run out of fuel at some point", which is true, but it does not mean on itself than you can not reach the speed of light or even go faster than it. Just bring more fuel, or more efficient fuel.

If however we suppose that your ship was powered by vacuum energy (ie. a non-local source), and could keep accelerating forever (ie. a ship powered by an 'inertial motor', breaking momentum symmetry / Newton's 3rd law), then yes you'd continue to feel the same inertia for the same acceleration no matter how close to C you got - in principle, even sailing straight thru it.

I don't really understand what you meant with half of these sentences, but I think your conclusion is wrong. Even if you accelerated at a constant rate forever (as seen from your own frame of reference) you would never go faster than light (as seen from any external frame of reference).
 
Yay! Everything you said makes sense to my enthusiast knowledge. Except that bit. Rather than sailing right through it (and by it, we're talking it's relative speed from the original reference frame), wouldn't it just edge closer and closer to C, become increasingly more massive, and there's some length contraction which I'm aware of, but never really understood.

In most instances, raising momentum means raising counter momentum - a la Newton's 3rd law (N3) - and this is the fundamental reason why kinetic energy scales as the half square of velocity.

For example, following the standard mechanical energy term KE = 1/2 mV^2, it costs 1/2 a Joule to accelerate a 1 kg mass, from stationary, up to an initial velocity of 1 meter / sec.

But to raise its velocity by a further meter / sec is more expensive. The 1/2 J per kg-m^2 special introductory offer doesn't roll over to the next kg-m^2 - rather, its cost rises fourfold, to 2 J.

And each successive kg-m/s of momentum we buy thereafter costs ever more energy to purchase. A third unit costs 4.5 J. A fourth, 8 J, and a fifth, 12.5 J and so on.

Each time we're buying the same amount of momentum - 1 kg-meter / second (or equivalently, 1 kg-meter squared), but the more we buy, the more expensive it gets.

This is because to accelerate a mass, we have to apply a a force, over a distance - following the work / energy equivalence principle, work = force times displacement.

And since force = mass times acceleration, and acceleration is rate of change of rate of change of location with respect to time, the faster a mass is moving, the more force is required, or else the more displacement over which a constant force must be applied.

So the ultimate cost of momentum is determined by the practicalities of being dependent upon reaction mass.


If however we had a notional violation of Newton's 3rd law (an "N3 symmetry break" or just N3 break for short), then we could arrange a perfectly elastic collision (ie. having no dissipative losses), with an asymmetric resulting distribution of momentum.

When such an interaction is cycled successively, the net system momentum rises.

This is obviously not what happens in normal elastic mechanical interactions - the division of momentum is usually equal and opposite in sign, and so cycling the interaction does not change the net system momentum.

Internally however, the masses in an asymmetric interaction are only paying for their own, relative displacements, not that of the net system.

Inertial motors are generally considered impossible - until Shawyer's EM drive came along, few scientists would even consider such a possibility. No mechanical example has ever been found, as far as i know.

But if an N3 break were possible, then the device would not be paying for its rise in net system momentum resulting from the accumulating asymmetric distribution of momentum.

Internally, if it moved say 1 kg back and forth by 1 meter each cycle, that cost is 1 J per cycle, however assuming it was fully elastic it's only 1 J to set it in motion, which then continues indefinitely until friction or some other force is applied. Externally however, from a stationary reference frame, the system would be accumulating more momentum than could be explained by the 1 J / cycle on-board expenditure.

Since energy is conserved we could not assume this was free energy, but rather supplied by whatever elementary field is ultimately responsible for the N3 break, or simply just inertia itself (ie. the Higgs field).

I raised this same objection on the forum of the NASA team replicating these EM drives - reactionless thrust is only half the controversey; the other half is the implied free energy. Any effective example of an N3 break is also over-unity. A working EM drive accelerating through space would pass some threshold velocity at which it had more kinetic energy than could have been supplied to it or carried by it in terms of potential energy stores. It would only be paying for its internal workload in manifesting the N3 break. The rise in KE of the net system, with its accumulating momentum and diverging reference frame, would be anomolous and so not amenable to calorimetry for example.

In principle however, with a mechanical N3 break, whatever its unit cost of anomolous momentum per cycle, it would remain constant as that net momentum built up - and not rising as a function of velocity.

So if our first kg-m/s cost 1/2 a Joule, so would the second, third and fourth and so on, forever.

If we could accelerate 1 kg up to lightspeed using a perfectly-efficient external energy source, the final kg-m/s of momentum that tipped us from 299792457 m/s up to 299792458 m/s (C) would cost a whopping 299792500 Joules.

If however it was purchased via an N3 break, its minimum cost could remain as low as 1/2 J - the same cost as the first kg-m/s off the launchpad, and a total expenditure of 149896229 Joules - a nice saving of 44937758487152171 Joules over the standard ticket price.

But whatever the unit energy cost of momentum sourced via an N3 break - even if it was a megajoule per kg-m/s - it would in principle remain constant per cycle, regardless of rising net system momentum, and so provided we could buy enough of it, we would eventually pass some threshold velocity beyond which we were over-unity, as measured from a static external frame.

If you think about the practical limitations on accelerating to lightspeed, it's reaction mass, and on-board potential energy.

But an N3 break is velocity-agnostic. It has no external reference for its own velocity, and is effectively its own independent, unique reference frame.

Provided you had the on-board energy to keep cycling it, it would have no speed limit.

We can only speculate whether matter as we know it can even exist above C. But assuming the craft didn't somehow evaporate, there'd be no practical constraints upon exceeding C.

Obviously, we can already see objects in the sky exceeding C as a function of relative velocity (to us observers) - and all of the universe beyond the red-shift horizon is effectively already at superluminal speed relative to us, due to Lambda (the constant of accelerating expansion).

Similarly, a craft above C on a parallel vector would be invisible, but on an orthogonal vector would remain visible, although we'd be seeing where it was, not where it is.

On-board, you'd have no sensation of increased mass - 1 kg would still register as such on a scales under 9.81 m/s of acceleration. Likewise, there'd be no change in your rate of time, or metric of distance.

Again, one can only speculate what superluminal travel might be like, but with an effective N3 violation, C would no longer present any barrier in purely mechanical terms.
 
Yes, this is true.



I'm not quite sure what you mean by "inertia", as the word on itself is not very commonly used in physics. Did you mean mass? Or linear momentum? What units does it have?

Inertia is more fundamental than mass, since in mechanical terms all we mean by mass is its associated inertia. Linear momentum is mass times velocity, but really, it's inertia - the mass's resistance to changes in velocity - times velocity, that constitutes both linear momentum and kinetic energy (P = mV and KE = 1/2mV^2 respectively).

If all we had to contend with was linear scenarios, then mass and inertia would be mutually interchangeable to all intents and purposes here, however momentum can also be angular, and its dimensions are angular inertia (or moment of inertia - MoI), times angular velocity (ie. MoI * RPM). MoI is a variable function of rest mass times radius squared (MoI = mr^2). So what is it that is changing with radius squared as a function of unit angle / time? Space / distance! So more fundamentally, inertia is not simply a function of how much mass we have, but rather how much mass has been accelerated (or decelerated) through how much space in how much time - so you could use kg for mass, seconds for time and meters for distance, as usual.

An example of this ambiguity could be given by a black box with an attached lever - you pull the lever, then try to determine how much mass has been accelerated by how much speed, as a function of the lever's resistance - say it exerted 1 Newton of resistance over 1 meter, so you've expended 1 Joule in pulling it. But from this alone you've no way of determining whether you've accelerated 2 kg by 1 meter / sec, or 1 gram by 14.1 m/s, or 200 kg by 0.1 m/s etc. etc.

If mass was sufficient to determine energy and momentum in all scenarios, that's what i'd use. But since rotational kinetic energy (RKE) = 1/2 MoI * RPM^2 - quite independently of whatever the rest mass happens to be - and since inertia is also what we're really dealing with in the linear momentum and KE terms, it proves the more accurate generalisation than mass alone.


This is equivalent to say "you will run out of fuel at some point", which is true, but it does not mean on itself than you can not reach the speed of light or even go faster than it. Just bring more fuel, or more efficient fuel.

..but fuel has mass, that needs to be accelerated along with the rest of the ship! The more mass you have, the more momentum you have at a given velocity and thus the more energy you need to spend to reach it. It's the old tail-chasing problem of why jet-packs have 30-second fuel ranges...



I don't really understand what you meant with half of these sentences, but I think your conclusion is wrong. Even if you accelerated at a constant rate forever (as seen from your own frame of reference) you would never go faster than light (as seen from any external frame of reference).

I think i covered this in my previous post, so won't repeat it again here, but the constraints are practical, not elementary, so far as i'm aware.
 
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Well, it depends how high you jump. The outer edge of a rotating circle is travelling faster relative to any inner, smaller circles (think onion rings).
So, imagine a "stationary" mouse is at 6 o'clock, facing left on the ring of a mini space station rotating clockwise... At that instant it would be travelling left with the ring. Now if it jumped up at that point, it would in fact be travelling up and to the left with two vectors combined, giving it a higher velocity than the outer ring alone. It would end up ahead of its original position when it lands even though it jumped up.


Another interesting thing is, if you live on the inside of a rotating ring and run in the same direction as the ring is rotating, you would feel yourself getting heavier the faster you run. However, if you run counter to the direction of the ring's rotation, you would gradually get lighter and lighter until your speed matched that of the rotating ring (in the opposite direction) and you would start to float.

All true. But with the size of the stations in ED, you wouldn't be able to jump high enough, or run fast enough to notice that much of a difference. Closer to the centre, certainly.
 
Inertia is more fundamental than mass, since in mechanical terms all we mean by mass is its associated inertia. Linear momentum is mass times velocity, but really, it's inertia - the mass's resistance to changes in velocity - times velocity, that constitutes both linear momentum and kinetic energy (P = mV and KE = 1/2mV^2 respectively).

Then what you meant when by inertia you said "Kinetic energy evolves as the half square of inertia times velocity" is mass, and it is not the half square of mass times velocity but half the mass times velocity squared (as you wrote correctly in the quote above) :)

If all we had to contend with was linear scenarios, then mass and inertia would be mutually interchangeable to all intents and purposes here, however momentum can also be angular, and its dimensions are angular inertia (or moment of inertia - MoI), times angular velocity (ie. MoI * RPM). MoI is a variable function of rest mass times radius squared (MoI = mr^2). So what is it that is changing with radius squared as a function of unit angle / time? Space / distance! So more fundamentally, inertia is not simply a function of how much mass we have, but rather how much mass has been accelerated (or decelerated) through how much space in how much time - so you could use kg for mass, seconds for time and meters for distance, as usual.

An example of this ambiguity could be given by a black box with an attached lever - you pull the lever, then try to determine how much mass has been accelerated by how much speed, as a function of the lever's resistance - say it exerted 1 Newton of resistance over 1 meter, so you've expended 1 Joule in pulling it. But from this alone you've no way of determining whether you've accelerated 2 kg by 1 meter / sec, or 1 gram by 14.1 m/s, or 200 kg by 0.1 m/s etc. etc.

Mass and moment of inertia are clearly two different things, yes (albeit related).

If mass was sufficient to determine energy and momentum in all scenarios, that's what i'd use. But since rotational kinetic energy (RKE) = 1/2 MoI * RPM^2 - quite independently of whatever the rest mass happens to be - and since inertia is also what we're really dealing with in the linear momentum and KE terms, it proves the more accurate generalisation than mass alone.

I see that you tried to generalise the form in which to write the expression for kinetic energy, but the choice of words was a bit confusing. Perhaps saying that kinetic energy K is

K = 1/2*m*v^2 + 1/2*MoI*RPM^2

makes it more clear (where the linear and rotational parts have explicitly been separated, and there is no needs for such quantity as "inertia").

...but fuel has mass, that needs to be accelerated along with the rest of the ship! The more mass you have, the more momentum you have at a given velocity and thus the more energy you need to spend to reach it. It's the old tail-chasing problem of why jet-packs have 30-second fuel ranges...

This poses no fundamental limit in what velocities can be achieved, correct...

[About reaching speeds greater than c] but the constraints are practical, not elementary, so far as i'm aware.

... but this is wrong. There is a fundamental limit expressing that no information can travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum, and therefore so couldn't your spaceship. Otherwise causality would be broken. Even if you had a propellantless drive* you could never exceed (and actually you could never reach) the speed of light. Even if you kept accelerating on and on and on forever, at whatever rate you accelerated, you could never reach the speed of light in a spaceship. Other fancy things would happen, like time dilation and length contraction. Let me know if you want to expand on this topic.

* A propellantless drive is that which does not require a proellant, as it's own name indicates, and therefore you would not need to bring extra mass in your spaceship. Propellantless drives are fine. A sail on a boat is a propellantless drive, for instance. However what you suggest later on is a reactionless drive, which is not OK with physics.

So the ultimate cost of momentum is determined by the practicalities of being dependent upon reaction mass.

If however we had a notional violation of Newton's 3rd law (an "N3 symmetry break" or just N3 break for short), then we could arrange a perfectly elastic collision (ie. having no dissipative losses), with an asymmetric resulting distribution of momentum.

When such an interaction is cycled successively, the net system momentum rises.

This is a very big if right there. I'm not saying it is not possible, because after all physicists have been wrong in the past too, but so far ALL the observations made EVER in history agree with Newton's third law. Saying that if we could break Newton's third law we could get fancy stuff is like saying that if we could create energy out of nothing all the problems in the world would be solved. It may be true, but sadly this is not how Nature shows herself to work.

Inertial motors are generally considered impossible - until Shawyer's EM drive came along, few scientists would even consider such a possibility. No mechanical example has ever been found, as far as i know.

No unambiguous results using Shawyer's EM drive or any similar device have been shown proving that it works. Several theoretical explanations have been given as to how such a device could possibly work, but none of them (at least the serious ones) includes the possibility of breaking Newton's third law. Breaking Newton's third law would also imply breaking the first law of thermodynamics, and as Homer Simpson would tell you:

[video=youtube;6vxHkAQRQUQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxHkAQRQUQ[/video]

If we could accelerate 1 kg up to lightspeed using a perfectly-efficient external energy source, the final kg-m/s of momentum that tipped us from 299792457 m/s up to 299792458 m/s (C) would cost a whopping 299792500 Joules.

This is wrong. If you gave 299792500 Joules of energy to a body moving at 299792457 m/s it would not reach a speed of 299792458 m/s (c (and it's usually small c, not capital C)). This is because at speeds comparable to c the form for kinetic energy is no longer 1/2*m*v^2. This formula is an approximation that works at (relatively) low speeds. For speeds comparable to the speed of light you need to use the relativistic forms for the kinetic energy. If you do that you will see that no matter how much energy you give to your 1kg of mass, it will never reach the speed of light (let alone surpass it).

If you think about the practical limitations on accelerating to lightspeed, it's reaction mass, and on-board potential energy.

I hope by now the point is clear, that this is not the case. Reaching the speed of light is NOT a practical limitation, it is a fundamental one. :)
 
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