General / Off-Topic Harvard Study Shows Gun Control Doesn't Save Lives

Harvard study shows gun control doesn't save Lives
August 28, 2013

Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy has just released a study of the relative effects of stringent gun laws. They found that a country like Luxenbourg, which bans all guns has a murder rate that is 9 times higher than Germany, where there are 30,000 guns per 100,000 people. They also cited a study by the U.S.National Academy of Sciences, which studied 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, and it failed to find one gun control initiative that worked.

In fact, in many cases it found that violence is very often lower, where guns are more readily available. The report points to a myth that guns are more easily obtained in the United States than in Europe. That is factually incorrect.

Austria has the lowest murder rate of any industrialized country, with .8 murders per 100,000 people, yet they have 17,000 guns per 100,000 people. Norway is second with .81 murders and 36,000 guns. Germany is third with .93 murders and 36,000 guns. The United states has a murder rate of 10.1 murders per 100,00 people. But Luxembourg, which does not allow gun ownership at all has a rating of 9.01.

The same pattern appears when comparisons of violence to gun ownership are done within nations. Indeed, "data on firearms ownership by constabulary area in England." like data from the United States show a "negative correlation" that is "where firearms are most dense, violent crime is lower, and where firearms are least dense, the violent crime rate is the highest."

Another longstanding myth is that Europe's relatively low murder rate is because of their gun control laws. The truth is, their rates were low even before gun control laws were passed, according to the Harvard study. In fact, their murder rates hit an all time low, before any gun laws were passed. In fact, their violent crimes have risen since they enacted gun control laws. By comparison, violent crimes have dropped in the US over the same period.

Russia has a ban on hand guns and their murder rate is 30.6%, whereas in the United States the rate is a much lower 7.8%. And during the 1990s, gun ownership grew significantly in the United States, while violent crimes dropped by 30%. In England, after they banned handguns, the rate of violent crimes soared.

The Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, conceeded that the results they found in their report was not what they expected to find.

http://www.examiner.com/article/harvard-study-shows-gun-control-doesn-t-save-lives

Also see:

Britain’s Gun-Control Folly
by Scott McPherson December 16, 2005

In response, allow me to quote at length from “Gun Control in England: The Tarnished Gold Standard,” written by historian Joyce Lee Malcolm and published in the fall 2004 issue of Journal on Firearms & Public Policy:

[Between 1997 and 2003] crimes with [banned firearms] have more than doubled…. In 2002, for the fourth consecutive year, gun crime in England and Wales rose — by 35 percent for all firearms, and by a whopping 46 percent for the banned handguns. Nearly 10,000 firearms offenses were committed…. Clearly since the ban criminals have not found it difficult to get guns and the balance has not shifted in the interest of public safety….

In the four years from 1997 to 2001 the rate of violent crime more than doubled. The UK murder rate for 2002 was the highest for a century….

A recent study of all the countries of western Europe has found that in 2001 Britain had the worst record for killings, violence and burglary, and its citizens had one of the highest risks in the industrialized world of becoming victims of crime….

And here’s the icing on the cake: “[A] United Nations study of eighteen industrialized countries, including the United States, published in 2002 … found England and Wales at the top of the Western world’s crime league, with the worst record for ‘very serious’ offenses.” [Emphasis added]

And all this while crime in the United States, including violent crime, has been steadily falling. The “Wild West” seems to be 3,000 miles to our east.

http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/britains-guncontrol-folly/


The great gun control fallacy

Thomas Sowell

Must every tragic mass shooting bring out the shrill ignorance of "gun control" advocates?

The key fallacy of so-called gun control laws is that such laws do not in fact control guns. They simply disarm law-abiding citizens, while people bent on violence find firearms readily available.

If gun control zealots had any respect for facts, they would have discovered this long ago, because there have been too many factual studies over the years to leave any serious doubt about gun control laws being not merely futile but counterproductive.

Places and times with the strongest gun control laws have often been places and times with high murder rates. Washington, DC, is a classic example, but just one among many.

When it comes to the rate of gun ownership, that is higher in rural areas than in urban areas, but the murder rate is higher in urban areas. The rate of gun ownership is higher among whites than among blacks, but the murder rate is higher among blacks. For the country as a whole, handgun ownership doubled in the late 20th century, while the murder rate went down.

The few counter-examples offered by gun control zealots do not stand up under scrutiny. Perhaps their strongest talking point is that Britain has stronger gun control laws than the United States and lower murder rates.

But, if you look back through history, you will find that Britain has had a lower murder rate than the United States for more than two centuries – and, for most of that time, the British had no more stringent gun control laws than the United States. Indeed, neither country had stringent gun control for most of that time.

In the middle of the 20th century, you could buy a shotgun in London with no questions asked. New York, which at that time had had the stringent Sullivan Law restricting gun ownership since 1911, still had several times the gun murder rate of London, as well as several times the London murder rate with other weapons.

Neither guns nor gun control was not the reason for the difference in murder rates. People were the difference.

Yet many of the most zealous advocates of gun control laws, on both sides of the Atlantic, have also been advocates of leniency toward criminals.

In Britain, such people have been so successful that legal gun ownership has been reduced almost to the vanishing point, while even most convicted felons in Britain are not put behind bars. The crime rate, including the rate of crimes committed with guns, is far higher in Britain now than it was back in the days when there were few restrictions on Britons buying firearms. In 1954, there were only a dozen armed robberies in London but, by the 1990s – after decades of ever tightening gun ownership restrictions – there were more than a hundred times as many armed robberies.

Gun control zealots' choice of Britain for comparison with the United States has been wholly tendentious, not only because it ignored the history of the two countries, but also because it ignored other countries with stronger gun control laws than the United States, such as Russia, Brazil and Mexico. All of these countries have higher murder rates than the United States.

You could compare other sets of countries and get similar results. Gun ownership has been three times as high in Switzerland as in Germany, but the Swiss have had lower murder rates. Other countries with high rates of gun ownership and low murder rates include Israel, New Zealand, and Finland.

Guns are not the problem. People are the problem – including people who are determined to push gun control laws, either in ignorance of the facts or in defiance of the facts.

There is innocent ignorance and there is invincible, dogmatic and self-righteous ignorance. Every tragic mass shooting seems to bring out examples of both among gun control advocates.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/18/great-gun-control-fallacy-thomas-sowell

History of Gun Registration Leading To Gun Confiscation

October 30, 2015/ /by Bill Kendall

Throughout modern history, gun confiscation is usually preceded by a gun registration. It makes sense to know where the guns are before you demand they be turned in. This usually does not end well for those turning in their weapons as history shows us.

http://genesiscnc.com/history-of-gun-registration-gun-confiscation/

"If you are for gun control, then you are not against guns, because the guns will be needed to disarm people. So it’s not that you are anti-gun. You’ll need the police’s guns to take away other people’s guns. So you’re very Pro-Gun, you just believe that only the Government (which is, of course, so reliable, honest, moral and virtuous…) should be allowed to have guns. There is no such thing as gun control. There is only centralizing gun ownership in the hands of a small, political elite and their minions."

- Stefan Molyneux

Do libertarians favor gun control?

QUESTION: I am unclear on the libertarian stand on gun control and crime. Should there be gun control in a libertarian society? And if so, how much?

MY SHORT ANSWER: Firearms, like fists, can be used for offense or defense. Libertarians would not advocate cutting off a person’s access to firearms any more than they would advocate cutting off a person’s hands to prevent a brawl.

Most people who advocate gun control do so because they believe it lowers the crime rate. In fact, just the opposite is true. Violent crime (    , robbery, and homicide) decrease dramatically when states pass laws that permit peaceful citizens to carry concealed weapons.

One famous example: in 1966 and 1967 Orlando, Florida police responded to a      epidemic with a highly-publicized program to train 2,500 women in the use of firearms. Orlando became the only city with a population over 100,000 which showed a decrease in crime.     , aggravated assault, and burglary were reduced by 90%, 25%, and 24% respectively — without a single woman ever firing a shot in self-defense.

Criminals are looking for an easy mark and avoid those who might be armed. Anyone who doubts this might wish to put a sign on their front lawn saying “This house is a gun-free zone” to experience the consequences firsthand.

Gun control is actually “victim disarmament.” It exposes the weakest among us — women, children, and the elderly — to greater risk of attack. It denies us the ability to defend ourselves against those who would harm us.

Since the courts have ruled that the police have no obligation to protect an individual citizen from attack, we have no legal recourse if they fail to do so.

Acting in self-defense, armed citizens kill more criminals each year than police do, yet shoot only one-tenth as many innocent people by mistake. Clearly, armed citizens act as responsibly (if not more so) than trained law enforcers.

Libertarians believe that everyone has the right to self-defense. America’s founders did too. Libertarians strongly support the Second Amendment. Libertarians do not support the victim-disarmament laws collectively known as “gun control.”

For more details, including references for the examples cited above, see Chapter 16 of my book, Healing Our World in an Age of Aggression, available from the Advocates (2003 edition). The 1993 edition can be read online for free at mywebsite.
 
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I know Stefan Molyneux he's a well known debater in certain parts of the world. Guns need regulation but it should be possible to buy legally in any country in my opinion.

Murder are done with or without guns, and it's not easier with a gun, it's just what most people think and therefor what most people replete in discussions.
 
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Murder are done with or without guns, and it's not easier with a gun, it's just what most people think and therefor what most people replete in discussions.

A gun is a machine designed to destroy living matter. When slugs hit human flesh they do terrible damage - by design - and it's right that, for example, our armed forces carry such devices with them when we put them in harms way.

Such devices have absolutely no business being among civilians in a civilized society. None. The effects of allowing it are absolutely clear to see in what happens across the pond.
 

Minonian

Banned
Wrong! As i already said there is a spike after gun control laws, but after that, its flats out and the number of violent deaths are became smaller. That's also in the statistics, but as usually gun freaks somehow "forget" to mention this part.

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A gun is a machine designed to destroy living matter. When slugs hit human flesh they do terrible damage - by design - and it's right that, for example, our armed forces carry such devices with them when we put them in harms way.

Yep, we can keep taking about it hourly but the simple truth is, a machine is designed to kill, is not about self defense!

The end!
 
So when I google rates for firearms related deaths I see that the US has rates of 10.54 per 100000 people compared with the UK's rate of 0.23 per 100000 people.

I notice you didn't quote the UK's tiny rate when you listed the rest. You hide behind the percentage increases but don't compare the overall figures which are way more meaningful.

Also quotes like 'The UK murder rate for 2002 was the highest for a century….' ?

Yes it was, but do you actually know why?

Take a look at this article and the very revealing graph which shows that the UK's murder rate has halved since then. :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9411649/Graphic-how-the-murder-rate-has-fallen.html

And the key quote from there?

'Annual crime figures show that the homicide rate has fallen steeply over the last decade, from a high in 2002 when 172 deaths were identified as likely to have been caused by the family GP Dr Harold Shipman. '

One man, with no guns and the murders of 172 people caused that spike.

I guess if you're saying that guns aren't the problem then from this, it's obvious that you mean Americans are.
 
I guess if you're saying that guns aren't the problem then from this, it's obvious that you mean Americans are.
Exactly, Stupid hippy!!!

Which is another way of saying guns don't kill people, people kill people. When someone finds intent, they will find a weapon. No, gun control won't save lives. I doubt it would even lower gun related deaths.

Like most things, as a nation let's find out the hard way.
 
No Offense.
But that Study is Bull    .

Murder Rate per 100k Citizens in Luxembourg is 0.7 Which is LOWER than Germany. And nowhere even close to 9 Times of what Germany has.....
Germany has 0.9

USA by the way has more than 5.0.....
Which means that the USA with its Lax Gun Controls has more than 5 Times of what Luxembourg has.


So I dont know where you Pulled this Strange Study.
But I somehow Doubt its from Harvard.

Because this is Harvards Stance from their Website.

""

Homicide

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review)

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the U.S., where there are more guns, both men and women are at a higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
""


I take my Guess and say either this entire Study even existing is a Hoax from some Republican (ehrm Donald Trump ehrm)
Or has been Interpreted incredibly Perverted by whoever wanted to use the name Harvard there.....
 
I'm sorry but that is absolute . The whole point of guns is that they make killing people very easy. I can't even begin to fathom how you square that circle in your head.

Because its truth, I'm sorry if this upset you, but life can be taken with a slingshot, knife just as easy. You do know that right? What we talk about is if we can make society safer.
Its an illusion, any lose of life is a failure. Sitting in a relative safe part of the world and dictate how other people should live their lives, without knowing what it takes is a squared box.

You live in a relative safe part, I don't, my view is from that angle not from where you are, just remember that. I'm always armed wherever I go, and that so far has kept me alive.
 
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Wrong! As i already said there is a spike after gun control laws, but after that, its flats out and the number of violent deaths are became smaller. That's also in the statistics, but as usually gun freaks somehow "forget" to mention this part.

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Yep, we can keep taking about it hourly but the simple truth is, a machine is designed to kill, is not about self defense!

The end!

Atomic bombs are made to never be used, and yet we make them, why is that I might wonder?

We simply don't agree, and that is fine, I'm not imposing my views on your part of the world, as long as I can keep my rights to protect myself if my life are in danger.

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Interesting. Someone should inform the military. Think of the savings...


Har har, funny guy, we are talking about weapons in the hands of civilians, but I guess we just detract the real point here.
 
Because its truth, I'm sorry if this upset you, but life can be taken with a slingshot, knife just as easy. You do know that right? What we talk about if we can make society safer.
Its an illusion, any lose of life is a failure. Sitting in a relative safe part of the world and dictate how other people should live their lives, without knowing what the takes is a squared box.

You live in a relative safe part, I don't, my view is from that angle not from where you are, just remember that. I'm always armed wherever I go, and that so far has kept me alive.

Sorry but NO.
Seriously NO.

And no Offense. But that is some Serious Bullcrab your Talking there.


1.
Killing someone with a Slingshot Requires extensive Training to even use a Slingshot with enough Power to Kill someone. And that so Accurately that your Hitting a Vital Part.
Killing someone with a Knife Requires an Insane Psychology and alot of Resolve to actually be gone through with.

You very Clearly never used a Knife in Combat. Otherwise you would never spout such crab....
I.ll give you the Hint. Just Stabbing someone with a Knife in Self Defense gives you an Real Bad Feeling. One which most People will Shrug back from instantly.
The Feeling that you just Seriously Injured someone. That he is Bleeding and that he Might Die.

And given you dont know this.
But many Victims of an Knife Assault. Survive this Knife Assault because the one who Attacked them got Cold Feet as he Realized what he was Doing and then Ran Away.

Meanwhile the Number of People getting Scared after having Shot someone is fairly Equal. Just that after being Shot. People Survive much less Often.


So Sorry but Seriously.
Right now. There is NO other Weapon. And much less one which Freely Available. Which allows someone to Carry Out Murder so Easily and with as little Resolve as a Gun.
Because a Gun requires no Direct Contact, no Extensive Learning and has no Risk of Retaliation. But most of all. Because just like Jumping from a Bridge its something you cannot take Back once Done. Once you Pulled the Trigger its over. That allows it to be done in a Rush before being aware of the Consequences and without getting up your Resolve for it.


2.
Of course Muder will always be done without Guns as well.
But there is two Distinctive things that Drop when you have Guns require an Extensive Permit and Registration.

That is

A.
The Success Rate of Murder. Because unlike the Rubbish you Claim there. Killing someone with a Slingshot or a Knife. Has an much much lower Chance of Success than doing it with a Gun.
The Victim has an much higher Survival Chance even if the Enemy actually Attempts to go Through with it. Because not only does it take longer and thus gives the Victim a Chance to Fight Back or Call for Help. But it also causes much less Lethal Injuries than a Gun unless your Professional and know how to Kill someone with that Tool/Weapon.
While a Gun will cause an Lethal Injury Instantly and without you having any Big Knowledge of it.

B.
Because A Gun needs very little Resolve.
You only need the Short Fuse to be Lit. Angry for but a Few Seconds not Thinking about the Consequences. And someone may End up Dead.
A Knife Requires you to actually Carry this out. You need to Overwhelm your Victim and Kill him. Unless your Professional at this you will need to do Several Stabs before you cause an Lethal Injury.
And this Takes quite an Resolve to actually see it through. Its nothing Sane People will carry through.


And this in itself without any other stuff. Drops the Murder Count Tremendously.

Chance makes Thiefs they Say.
And well guess what.
Chance also makes Murders.
Because the easier it is to Kill someone. The more likely it is that someone is Killed.




As an Sidenote.
Since this came up above.

Germany has 30k Guns per 100k People.
I dont know if that Figure is True.

But something to be said to this. Is that most of these Guns are Owned by Security and Law Enforcement as well as Military.
An Much much muuuuuuch smaller Part is Owned by Private Owners or Clubs.

But and thats one Importand thing. To Own a Gun in Germany you have to Provide quite the Extensive Experience in Handling and Education about Guns. As well as Providing the Required Storage. (For most Part this Storage is done by the Club or Company for which you actually have the Gun and thus the Gun will not be in your House or something in the First Place.

Much less the Number of Private People allowed to Carry a Gun in Public AT ALL is even smaller. And requires that you either have a Job which Requires you to Wield a Gun. Or have an Valid Threat to your Life which warrants for you to Carry a Gun.

So that Rubbish about Germany allowing Guns Widespread is Rubbish as well.
Getting a Gun in Germany is something that can Take Years and even then in most cases you will not take it out of the Shooting Range with you.
 
Har har, funny guy, we are talking about weapons in the hands of civilians, but I guess we just detract the real point here.

You have a good point there.

I am sick of hearing about all these "mass sling-shottings" where someone has gone into a crowded place with a catapult and some stones and killed 20 people in a few minutes.

So what if a gun is a mechanical device which can kill at ranges of several hundred meters? Knives can be thrown with pin-point accuracy even by people without military experience - I saw it on Batman. It'd be so easy to walk into a movie theatre with 32 separate knives and start throwing them into people, I barely understand why psychopaths bother with guns.
 
In Europe we didn't need guns, although with recent atrocities happening in France I'm starting to think they might be a good idea. In the US there are far too many criminals with guns and places like Detroit you would have to be a complete idiot not to carry.
 
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The gun-ban in France didn't stop the Islamic truck terrorist in Nice from having guns and grenades on July 14th. If responsible adults were free to own weapons for self-defense then many casualties would've been prevented as the terrorist driver would be killed much sooner.

Do libertarians favor gun control?

QUESTION: I am unclear on the libertarian stand on gun control and crime. Should there be gun control in a libertarian society? And if so, how much?

MY SHORT ANSWER: Firearms, like fists, can be used for offense or defense. Libertarians would not advocate cutting off a person’s access to firearms any more than they would advocate cutting off a person’s hands to prevent a brawl.

Most people who advocate gun control do so because they believe it lowers the crime rate. In fact, just the opposite is true. Violent crime ( , robbery, and homicide) decrease dramatically when states pass laws that permit peaceful citizens to carry concealed weapons.

One famous example: in 1966 and 1967 Orlando, Florida police responded to a epidemic with a highly-publicized program to train 2,500 women in the use of firearms. Orlando became the only city with a population over 100,000 which showed a decrease in crime. , aggravated assault, and burglary were reduced by 90%, 25%, and 24% respectively — without a single woman ever firing a shot in self-defense.

Criminals are looking for an easy mark and avoid those who might be armed. Anyone who doubts this might wish to put a sign on their front lawn saying “This house is a gun-free zone” to experience the consequences firsthand.

Gun control is actually “victim disarmament.” It exposes the weakest among us — women, children, and the elderly — to greater risk of attack. It denies us the ability to defend ourselves against those who would harm us.

Since the courts have ruled that the police have no obligation to protect an individual citizen from attack, we have no legal recourse if they fail to do so.

Acting in self-defense, armed citizens kill more criminals each year than police do, yet shoot only one-tenth as many innocent people by mistake. Clearly, armed citizens act as responsibly (if not more so) than trained law enforcers.

Libertarians believe that everyone has the right to self-defense. America’s founders did too. Libertarians strongly support the Second Amendment. Libertarians do not support the victim-disarmament laws collectively known as “gun control.”

For more details, including references for the examples cited above, see Chapter 16 of my book, Healing Our World in an Age of Aggression, available from the Advocates (2003 edition). The 1993 edition can be read online for free at mywebsite.
 
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In Europe we didn't need guns, although with recent atrocities happening in France I'm starting to think they might be a good idea. In the US there are far too many criminals with guns and places like Detroit you would have to be a complete idiot not to carry.

Again an excellent point. People would be far more safe if we turned our cities into warzones with two rival sides taking on each other with assault rifles.

I mean, what do we know about gun crime here really? I mean, in 2010 the UK had 17 gun related homicides. The USA had 11,078! They obviously know more about it than we do.
 
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