Has Elite Dangerous (ingame piracy etc) changed your view on self defense?

[Toumal]

Some time ago, there were quite a few threads about piracy in ED, and a lot of people complained about the police showing up too late, or how there could be piracy in core systems at all, etc.
This got me thinking, and I realized that there are certain parallels to how people react to the criminal violence in the game, and how people react to the same thing in real life.

"Isn't the police supposed to prevent this from happening in the first place?" - the very same sentence asked in a thread in here was what I heard from my neighbors a few months ago when we found someone had broken into my parent's flat. I personally experienced just how long 15 minutes are when you have a burglar in your own house, and are waiting for the police to arrive.

Back then I decided, I'm not going to wait for the feds to show up and save me, because there is a good chance that they might be too late. I decided I'm not going to hope for mercy from a criminal who has already decided to step over several other lines. I'm not going to hope that the line of taking a life, or seriously injuring another, just so happens to be a line he's not going to cross too.

So I got myself the license to own weapons. I purchased a pair of pulse lasers got myself a Glock 19. I practice every week, I go to competitions, and I keep it ready because I know what can happen - because it has happened before. I know exactly how it feels to have someone on the other side of the door trying to get in.

And that's why, I have to admit, I had to smile a little as some of you got the response to start looking out for yourself at least a little, in the game. In elite, you have a pair of pulse lasers even on the starter ship. If you get interdicted, and someone starts shooting you, running is of course the first thing you can and should do - but if you can't, and your shields are going down and there's just no way to gain distance.... you might as well turn around and fight.

So to get to the point of this post...

What do you think about piracy in Elite, and the parallels to real life? How do you feel about self defense, and did Elite make you think about, or even reconsider, your stance on this subject?

 

[freehotdawgs]

Yeah, anyone who expects the police, Feds, whatever to save you is in for a rude awakening. I've have always and will always be a big proponent of self-defense. It's impossible to have a perfectly safe anything since humans will always have free will and laws are only as good as whether or not someone decides to obey them.
I own weapons in real life for the exact same reason I do in game, to fight off anyone who wants to steal from me, hurt me, hurt my family, or hurt anyone else.
The only person you can always rely on is yourself so why wouldn't you want to be in charge of your own safety?

 

[Ytheleus]

No, my view of self-defense in real life is the same as it was before.

I'm struggling to see how this relates to a game like ED, or any other game for that matter. It might be more suitable for an NRA website.

But since you ask, the following pretty much sums up my view, and I'd prefer that someone stole every item I own than take anyone's life:

Emotion and the desire to protect your own are pretty powerful motivations. However, statistics about gun-related deaths should not be ignored. Multiple groups, like the American Academy of Pediatrics, urge Americans not to keep guns in their homes because of overwhelming evidence that homes with guns are more likely to also be homes with suicides, murders and gun-related accidents. Bad guys do get stopped with guns, but statistically, in a country where more than one third of households contain a working firearm, far more individuals, especially children, are accidentally shot. In addition to the number of children wounded or killed by firearms, women also disproportionately find themselves at the wrong end of a gun in their own homes, with a current or former romantic partner typically pulling the trigger.
According to a report filed by the Washington State Department of Social Health Services, a child or teen is killed once every seven and a half hours with a gun, either by accident or by suicide. In 72 percent of these cases, the firearm used was housed in the victim’s own residence. Many of these weapons were locked away in a secure place, yet 48 percent of those who own guns do not equip them with child safety and trigger locks.

 

[Sarutoshi]

I p̶u̶r̶c̶h̶a̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶a̶i̶r̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶p̶u̶l̶s̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶s̶e̶r̶s̶ got myself a Glock 19.

Oh, you make me chuckle good sir.

 

[ChaseBears]

haha wow guys.

there is no parallel, you don't live in a future dystopia where you murder people just to pay the bills.

 

[Toumal]

Ytheleus, i think the question fits in this forum because while Elite does exaggerate things a lot, criminal violence exists. Heck, piracy is very, very real. Just ask anyone who works on a container ship, or is otherwise going beyond littoral waters.

Also, note that there's no NRA in my country, i live in Austria.

And finaly, i am well aware of this statistic. However, there is countless examples of household articles regularly killing children where nobody asks for a ban.

But really, my question was whether elite made you think about such things. I take it your answer is no, which is fair of course!



P.S.: If a kid can get access to a firearm, it is not "properly stored", as alluded to in your quoted text. Same with medicine and chemicals.

 

[Ytheleus]

Fine, I'm not a moderator, you make some reasonable points, but medicines and household chemicals are not designed primarily to maim and kill people, so there is a clear category difference. They have other more useful properties and functions. A gun is not a general household item.

The evidence is so clear and tragic, however, that if protection from danger is what you want, a rational approach would absolutely rule out domestic firearms as entailing far more risk than they mitigate. Rational self-defence is about a balance of risks, and usually in law reasonable force is rightly allowed. But a gun only has one force setting, while the balance of risks is negative.

To the extent that it's also about how secure you feel, perhaps a gun is reassuring, but falsely so according to the evidence.

Consider getting a better home insurance policy. Consider getting better door locks and window fittings. Consider, please, keeping your Glock, glamorous as it no doubt seems to you, stored at a firing range, which is the only place I hope you ever use it, even for waving about as a threat in case some junkie decides to try to pinch your telly. A replica will serve for that. Get a medium-sized family dog even.

Commodities are designed to be replaceable. People, even petty burglars, are not replaceable if you ask their mothers. In any case you are statistically more likely to kill an innocent person, probably someone you love, by keeping a domestic firearm, than any criminals you might wish to obliterate.

To me, this is unrelated to gaming.

 

[Shintai]

Go away with the political crap to promote guns. This is a game.

 

[UnknownXV]

Fine, I'm not a moderator, you make some reasonable points, but medicines and household chemicals are not designed primarily to maim and kill people, so there is a clear category difference. They have other more useful properties and functions. A gun is not a general household item.

The evidence is so clear and tragic, however, that if protection from danger is what you want, a rational approach would absolutely rule out domestic firearms as entailing far more risk than they mitigate. Rational self-defence is about a balance of risks, and usually in law reasonable force is rightly allowed. But a gun only has one force setting, while the balance of risks is negative.

To the extent that it's also about how secure you feel, perhaps a gun is reassuring, but falsely so according to the evidence.

Consider getting a better home insurance policy. Consider getting better door locks and window fittings. Consider, please, keeping your Glock, glamorous as it no doubt seems to you, stored at a firing range, which is the only place I hope you ever use it, even for waving about as a threat in case some junkie decides to try to pinch your telly. A replica will serve for that.

Commodities are designed to be replaceable. People, even petty burglars, are not replaceable if you ask their mothers. In any case you are statistically more likely to kill an innocent person, probably someone you love, by keeping a domestic firearm, than any criminals you might wish to obliterate.

To me, this is unrelated to gaming.

Well, no. A rational option is not to think like you're a statistic, but to think like you are an intelligent individual. Keep your gun well maintained and train with it often. This will ensure you have the best chance at defending yourself and your property as possible. It does not, however, guarantee your safety. It just gives you a leg up. It also can act as an effective deterrent. Merely shouting that you are armed can scare away burglars.

If someone breaks into my home, I do not care one drop for their life. They are invading my home, my sanctity, the one place I have every right to feel completely safe, to steal or hurt from me. They are vile scum, filth, and while I am not advocating for people to charge after them if they run away and execute them, if they do not leave your house and are taking your things or threatening you, absolutely. Take them out. They made their choice the second they decided it was okay to break into someone's home.

 

[Space]

Go away with the political crap to promote guns. This is a game.

There is nothing bad about guns, as humans will always find a way to kill each other, even with a rock. In fact, guns just make the deaths less horrible than being stabbed or punched.

 

[Shintai]

There is nothing bad about guns, as humans will always find a way to kill each other, even with a rock. In fact, guns just make the deaths less horrible than being stabbed or punched.

Just a shame statistics doesnt agree with you.

Anyway, this doesnt belong on this forum.

 

[Valo56]

There is little parallel. In ED and other videogames there is active evil at work, there are people who will kill you or rob you because they can, and they are all around you all the time. This is not the case in real life unless your neighbors are ISIS.

Personally, I do not feel safer with a gun. Statistically it's more likely to endanger than help you. However, ever since a (presumably) drunken lunatic tried to force his way through my front door at 3am I sleep with mace next to my bed.

Nonlethal alternatives to lethal firearms are more suitable to self defense.

Well, no. A rational option is not to think like you're a statistic, but to think like you are an intelligent individual. Keep your gun well maintained and train with it often. This will ensure you have the best chance at defending yourself and your property as possible. It does not, however, guarantee your safety. It just gives you a leg up. It also can act as an effective deterrent. Merely shouting that you are armed can scare away burglars.

What do you think statistics are comprised of? A large sample of individuals! Ugh... This is ridiculous.

Numbers don't lie.

Everyone is a responsible gun owner, until something happens. Just like everyone is a responsible driver, until something happens.

 

[mic]

Go away with the political crap to promote guns. This is a game.

Yes please. +1

 

[Zenicetus]

This should probably get moved to the Off-Topic forum? Forum threads like this tend to spiral downwards rapidly.

FWIW, I'm a firearms owner, mostly due to owning some very remote vacation property, and some time spent living on a boat. There is no overlap with issues in games and real life. Zero, nada. You're in a world without consequences when playing games. Firearms are all about consequences.

 

[Quineloe]

Ytheleus, i think the question fits in this forum because while Elite does exaggerate things a lot, criminal violence exists. Heck, piracy is very, very real. Just ask anyone who works on a container ship, or is otherwise going beyond littoral waters.

Also, note that there's no NRA in my country, i live in Austria.

And finaly, i am well aware of this statistic. However, there is countless examples of household articles regularly killing children where nobody asks for a ban.

But really, my question was whether elite made you think about such things. I take it your answer is no, which is fair of course!



P.S.: If a kid can get access to a firearm, it is not "properly stored", as alluded to in your quoted text. Same with medicine and chemicals.

You obviously don't want to talk about violence and crime in the Elite universe, but today on Earth. Therefore, this belongs in the off-topic section.

 

[Rockspider]

ED is a "game" so how can it have any effect on my real life or view on self defence! what what what ?!?

It is nothing like my real life apart from they took down the pirate bay grrr

In the real world you have every right to protect yourself,family, friends etc etc

 

[Toumal]

There is little parallel. In ED and other videogames there is active evil at work, there are people who will kill you or rob you because they can, and they are all around you all the time.[/COLOR]

I completely disagree with you there. There ARE people around in real life who will kill or rob you, just because they can, and because it furthers whatever they think they need at that time, be it money or whatever else. We can talk about whether one should plan for such events, however unlikely they may be, but I find it difficult to argue the existence of crime when it happens every single day on this earth.

Go away with the political crap to promote guns. This is a game.

My question was, did Elite Dangerous influence how you think about self defense. That doesn't have to mean guns, it could be that you thought about installing an alarm system, or have a knife ready somewhere, or some heavy object.

There is no overlap with issues in games and real life. Zero, nada. You're in a world without consequences when playing games. Firearms are all about consequences.

There's no overlap, but issues in games are often a mirror image of issues in real life. There's piracy in real life, and there's for example a large rise in piracy in the real world since 2005 which only dropped after extensive countermeasures. Cargo ships are getting panic rooms installed, crews train in various courses, some ships travel with armed security forces aboard for protection. Naval forces patrol the seas to find pirate vessels and protect shipping lanes.

Take Valo56 above, according to him this can't happen because people don't kill and rob each other just because they can in real life.

They do.

You obviously don't want to talk about violence and crime in the Elite universe, but today on Earth. Therefore, this belongs in the off-topic section.

I'd be fine with moving the topic (or even locking if you guys would rather not talk about it).

 

[Rodder]

Well, you must be US citizen. There may be parallels to ED in a country where everybody can buy a Glock 19. Your situation is VERY special, in most parts of the world you have no chance to get a Glock as private person. Not even in shooting clubs, because there are much better guns for high precision club shooting.

I live in europe. The chance to get killed by a gun is almost zero. Nobody has a gun besides some hunter and shooting club members, even most criminals operate with lookalike signal guns. In fact i am more concerned by drunken people in the subway.

So, no parallels at all. In Elite i have to be on guard all the time because there is almost all the time someone sneaking behind me to get my cargo or my bounty. In real live i have to protect my wallet*, because pocket picking is my biggest personal thread in life.

*Edit: Protecting means safe pockets with a zipper, i don`t have to fight them off like in elite

 

[Toumal]

Rational self-defence is about a balance of risks, and usually in law reasonable force is rightly allowed. But a gun only has one force setting, while the balance of risks is negative.

How do you know this? I've personally talked to several people who would not be alive today were it not for the fact that they were able to present a firearm. And in their cases, they did not even have to harm the attacker - the presentation was enough to stop an armed assault right then and there. Now we may discuss whether or not the attacker "really meant it", but that's hardly the point. Fact is, such things do happen.

To the extent that it's also about how secure you feel, perhaps a gun is reassuring, but falsely so according to the evidence.

Had the burglar in my house wanted to force himself through that wooden door, I would only have had my own hands for defense. Tell me again about evidence.

Consider getting a better home insurance policy.

Can you cash in your insurance as a dead person?

Consider getting better door locks and window fittings.

Sound advice. Too late when someone's in the house, or attacking you on the street.

Consider, please, keeping your Glock, glamorous as it no doubt seems to you, stored at a firing range, which is the only place I hope you ever use it, even for waving about as a threat in case some junkie decides to try to pinch your telly.

It's important to note that this would not constitute self defense. We are talking about someone physically attacking you and threatening your immediate existence. This is not about things, but your life.

Get a medium-sized family dog even.

Unfortunately I can't keep a dog at this time for various reasons, otherwise I'd LOVE to do that.

Commodities are designed to be replaceable. People, even petty burglars, are not replaceable if you ask their mothers.

In my personal view, once one person has committed itself to attacking and killing another person, they have very little reason to not expect the victim to try and save his/her own life by any means neccessary.

In any case you are statistically more likely to kill an innocent person, probably someone you love, by keeping a domestic firearm, than any criminals you might wish to obliterate.

By that logic, you should never purchase fire insurance for your house because just look how unlikely it is for your home to catch fire. We purchase insurance for things that are valuable to us. I'd say the life of my family and my own life is worth a lot to me.
Also, I don't wish to obliterate a criminal. That's not how self defense works. If someone gets a gun for the purpose of "killing that " or whatever, that's clearly not right!

To me, this is unrelated to gaming.

Frankly, our debate here really is, because we're drifting to gun ownership, which was not the point. I simply brought it up because it was my own choice. I really asked about self defense in general.


And "No" would've been a fine answer instead of debating the need for self defense, or simply ignoring the existence of criminal violence like some of the replies.

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Well, you must be US citizen. There may be parallels to ED in a country where everybody can buy a Glock 19. Your situation is VERY special, in most parts of the world you have no chance to get a Glock as private person. Not even in shooting clubs, because there are much better guns for high precision club shooting.

I live in europe. The chance to get killed by a gun is almost zero. Nobody has a gun besides some hunter and shooting club members, even most criminals operate with lookalike signal guns. In fact i am more concerned by drunken people in the subway.

I live in Austria, Europe. I've had a robber in my house. In fact we've been robbed multiple times, though only once while we were at home, being woken up by the robber. If you think this only happens in the US, you are wrong. Also, gun ownership is a right every Austrian citizen has. There's a psychological test you have to pass, and you need to be an active sports shooter or do a refresher course every 5 years. You're allowed to keep guns and ammunition in the same storage place, but the storage has to be a safe that's bolted down. There's also a separate carry permit, which you have to have a good reason for to get (i.e. past robberies, regularly transporting large sums of cash, working as a cab or lorry driver)

 

[Zenicetus]

There's no overlap, but issues in games are often a mirror image of issues in real life. There's piracy in real life, and there's for example a large rise in piracy in the real world since 2005 which only dropped after extensive countermeasures. Cargo ships are getting panic rooms installed, crews train in various courses, some ships travel with armed security forces aboard for protection. Naval forces patrol the seas to find pirate vessels and protect shipping lanes.

Yeah, but that's approaching the issue entirely from the "need" side of the equation, and not from the consequences side, which never happens in games. When I play Elite Dangerous, I don't have to worry about locking up my Cobra, so a small child won't get their hands on it and hurt themselves or someone else. I don't have to worry about danger to innocent bystanders (or my own family) when the Cobra's weapons are fired. I don't have to deal with the drama and trauma of the criminal justice system, even when I use my Cobra in legitimate self-defense.

Bottom line: I don't have the responsibilities that come with weapon ownership, which should always be front and center when someone decides to arm themselves. I can be as irresponsible as I want in a game. That doesn't work in real life.