Has Odyssey trashed the idea of scenic surface POI's?

[Alec Turner]

Apologies for the slightly clickbaity title but I wanted to discuss another concern that's becoming ever more apparent in Odyssey as we get to visit more and more of our favourite Horizons POI's.

So as people will know by now, the regeneration of planet surfaces that was necessary in order for Odysdey to introduce its new planet tech has meant that the topography of every single planet in the game has changed. Having done that Frontier then had to re-roll the positions of all the existing surface POIs (and by that I mean things like Guardian and Thargoid surface structures, planet ports and engineer bases). The way they did this was via an automated process they called a "bake out". You can hear @Dav Stott talk about that here (timestamped).

Source: https://youtu.be/L55r0QQ3nEg?t=1209


Now ... in some (many? maybe even all?) circumstances the consequences of this appear to have been somewhat tragic.

Let's take a look at a few examples.

In Horizons, Cortes Base in Ross 1047 was a large circular planetary port positioned right on top of a "Pomeche-like" ridge, an absolutely sensational and scenic location I'm sure you'll agree.

In Odyssey that planet no longer contains such ridges (actually, I'm not convinced ridges like that exist AT ALL in Odyssey but that's the subject of a different discussion).

(apologies for that being in the dark - it really was not my intention to make it look as bad as I could for the sake of my argument, that's just what I found when I went there today)

Another example, this time a Guardian ruin which sits (in Horizons) on a rounded plateau on the side of a mountain on the perma-day side of its tidally locked planet overlooking a vast plane in the valley beyond.

In Odyssey that site now looks like this.

And lastly let's look at Taylor Keep in LHS 55. In Odyssey this INRA base is positioned (again in perma-day) in a basin nestled within a distinctive mountain range that itself sits within a vast crater. Another spectacular location.

In Odyssey this has moved to the perma-night side of its planet and looks like this.

Now, at this point I know people (@Arthur Tolmie included perhaps?) will say "of course but equally there will be previously dull POI's that are now in spectacular locations" (but will there?). I do get that, but please read on 'cos that's not quite the point.

What I'm really curious about and what concerns me greatly is the following.

1) Were sites like those featured above really randomly placed in Horizons (and FD just got incredibly lucky with their position) or were the positions of at least some of them hand-placed (or at least hand-tweaked) by FD to be in such spectacular locations?

2a) If they were hand placed - did Frontier simply not have time to do the same in Odyssey? Or ... have they done the same with some and we just haven't found them? Or ... if they have just let them all fall randomly this time, can they not see what a massive shame this is and do they have any plans to go back and tweak some of them later once things have settled down?

2b) If they weren't hand placed - have some existing POI's in Odyssey now fallen in equally awesome locations (if anyone has examples PLEASE share)? Or ... is the reason that some Horizons POI's landed in these locations where in Odyssey they haven't down to the fact that Odyssey is simply not generating nearly as many interesting surface features and so the odds of that happening are incredibly reduced?

I'd be curious to hear other people's views on this, I'd LOVE to hear Frontier's views on this, and, although I appreciate it's a difficult one for Frontier (especially with everything else that's happening), I do have some specific requests (somewhat repeating the questions I just posed).

1) To put speculation to bed could you tell us honestly how some of these sites were positioned in Horizons (all random chance or some handplacing?)

2) Would it be possible to retrospectively go back (when you have time) and hand tweak the positions of some key POI's (a few planetary ports, some INRA bases, some engineer bases) so we once again have some truly spectacular locations to visit and to build stories and gameplay around?

3) Would it be at all possible to artificially construct similar terrain around locations like those above to look like they did in Horizons? (I can see that you've done this to a limited extent with Farseer base)

Spoiler

4) Would you at least consider moving some locations to the perma-day side of the planet where they were similarly situated in Horizons?

5) Can you give me any reassurance on this subject at all? (and that goes for everyone - if you've found things like INRA bases, Guardian sites, etc that are in spectacular locations in Odyssey please share - I want to be proven wrong about my worst fears on this subject)

 

[clavain]

Apologies for the slightly clickbaity title but I wanted to discuss another concern that's becoming ever more apparent in Odyssey as we get to visit more and more of our favourite Horizons POI's.

Let me know how this works out when I check back into the game for the actual release version in a year or so. ;-)

Seriously, see what @Erimus and gang are up to with the (now largely destroyed) community mapping initiative over in the Exploration thread also. Will be interesting to see what, if anything, can be salvaged. Sigh.

The Galactic Mapping Project & Historical Archive of Exploration

One interesting thing for some of us who actually ARE far out in the black is whether we'll be able to access the exploration-related Odyssey equipment in some way without first coming all the way back to the bubble. For example, will Fleet Carriers be able to sell some of this equipment?

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[BlackMaze]

This has been one of the huge disappointement for me as well.

While the new planet tech can produce some lovely new terrain features, it really does appear that all the special POIs we got with Horizons drew the shorter end of the stick.

Like Alec mentions, I too suspect that with the new bake out, no POI location was really taken into consideration.

I suspect, during the time of Horizons, that these POIs were hand placed around interesting terrain. I suspect the developers looked for a good place that was procedurally generated and orientated their POI in such a way that it looked gorgeous.

Now in Odyssey not only do we see a shuffle in their location in areas with mostly flat terrains, there appears to be absolutely no consideration for their location compared to the sun. While POIs were often placed in a tidally locked daylight position, they are now often on the dark side.

We've lost some incredible locations that were considered real scenic locations that people would visit for reasons beyond the normal gameplay "visit a base for a mission" elements.

People would often visit locations just for how gorgeous they looked. Fly over them. Drive through them. Host events...

This is all gone and it is extremely upsetting.

I dare demand that FDEV puts tangeable hours in to all of the engineering bases, guardian sites and other POIs the community deem special in Horizons so that they spend time to replicate their location and terrain features.

Here is some footage from around the INRA base in 12 Trianguli (Taylor Keep) - The base is set in between hills where the sun tidally locks to peer just over the horizon. The mountain in the crater is set in yet another crater.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbJBBr2qT1o


Alec's done a great job showcasing the other examples. I'm hoping FDEV is hard at work to improve on this!

 

[clavain]

I suspect, during the time of Horizons, that these POIs were hand placed around interesting terrain. I suspect the developers looked for a good place that was procedurally generated and orientated their POI in such a way that it looked gorgeous.

Perhaps even tied to the concepts of narrative and lore, which to use a diplomatic phrase seem to be somewhat elusive in Odyssey...

 

[Rock-Hermit]

Clavain beat me to it. If you want an indication of how things have changed (and not always for the better), check out the mapping project Clavain linked. Before Odyssey there were lots of interesting Horizons-based POIs being submitted to it nearly every week, and going back 6 years since it began. Since Odyssey was released, there's been two at most, and no offense to those that submitted them, they're not that special.

This could be because people don't want to submit their findings in case they're subject to change in the road map fixes and optimizations, and then again when the console is released. It could also be that the really cool stuff in Odyssey is now ultra rare (which wont be a bad thing really, it makes such places special). I think there's also a case of people too busy looking up at the amazing sky backdrops and sunsets, and not taking too much notice of the geology under their feet! But yes, the new tech is leaving a lot to be desired at the moment.

 

[BlackMaze]

I remember this question from Bruce...

To this day I haven't a clue what it was for. He wasn't at liberty to tell me at the time. I always imagined it was to preserve locations.

We provided a vast list but... To my knowledge all of the locations we provided were completely changed in regard to terrain and location compared to the sun.

P.S. Forgive me for making a PM public like that but I don't see the harm, necessarily.

 

[FrogsFriend]

Probably not a big job to hand-place those locations, one or a few at a time, over several years as they were created. But, going back though them all to re-position them on the new work-in-progress planetary terrain, while obviously not impossible, was probably not high on the Odyssey Deadline To-Do list. Hopefully they'll have free time in the future to revisit them, once they've sorted out their more urgent problems.

 

[BlackMaze]

Probably not a big job to hand-place those locations, one or a few at a time, over several years as they were created. But, going back though them all to re-position them on the new work-in-progress planetary terrain, while obviously not impossible, was probably not high on the Odyssey Deadline To-Do list. Hopefully they'll have free time in the future to revisit them, once they've sorted out their more urgent problems.

I mean.. If you add all of these POIs up.. How many do you get? 100? If I was given a week to inventorize what makes them special in Horizons and then offering proper positions in Odyssey I'd be done in a week.

Given I worked for FDEV and I get some time dedicated to the project.

if FDEV would come on here and say "You guys go right ahead and give us the data" I'd ing do it. Cause I'm a loser fanboy

 

[Deleted member 115407]

So, my counterpoint to this is much the same as my counterpoint to the planet surfaces in general, i.e. While known locations may have changed, unknown locations may have changed as well.

For iconic places, such as Guardian ruins and other landmarks, I certainly would like to see them be a little more "hand-placed" on nicer terrain. But for things like surface settlements? The one in your first image may no longer be atop its beautiful ridge, but there may be others that now are (or will be, once the planetary tech gets worked out).

I found a cool little Odyssey settlement nestled in some mountains the other day that was pretty nice.

Not that I'm saying your points are invalid. They aren't. But I am not quite ready to make a full judgement yet.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Not that I'm saying your points are invalid. They aren't. But I am not quite ready to make a full judgement yet.

Particularly when there are ongoing investigations to the new planetary tech not being exactly 'as anticipated'?

 

[Alec Turner]

Probably not a big job to hand-place those locations, one or a few at a time, over several years as they were created. But, going back though them all to re-position them on the new work-in-progress planetary terrain, while obviously not impossible, was probably not high on the Odyssey Deadline To-Do list. Hopefully they'll have free time in the future to revisit them, once they've sorted out their more urgent problems.

This was exactly my suspicion as well. That when the handful of INRA bases were added as a key feature, there was time and energy to get them right. Simiarly with the Guardian update, given the Guardian sites were the key feature it's understandable that FD would take them time to get them right. It was very much with this in mind that I chose my wording in the OP quite carefully. Apologies if that didn't come across.

 

[Alec Turner]

So, my counterpoint to this is much the same as my counterpoint to the planet surfaces in general, i.e. While known locations may have changed, unknown locations may have changed as well.

They may well have. I wait to see any evidence of this.

For iconic places, such as Guardian ruins and other landmarks, I certainly would like to see them be a little more "hand-placed" on nicer terrain. But for things like surface settlements? The one in your first image may no longer be atop its beautiful ridge, but there may be others that now are (or will be, once the planetary tech gets worked out).

Again, I agree but I await any evidence of this. On a similar subject it was pointed out above that a similar discussion has been underway in the Galactic Mapping Project. Since Odyssey dropped an almost miniscule selection of worthy planetary locations has been suggested (2 to be precise and I gather even those are only marginally interesting) ... worrying to say the least.

I found a cool little Odyssey settlement nestled in some mountains the other day that was pretty nice.

Yup, me too. Some of the new settlements are undoubtedly in cool locations and to show I'm not afraid of the counter argument here's one example.

However, I suppose I'm particulary referring here to locations that existed in Horizons.

Not that I'm saying your points are invalid. They aren't. But I am not quite ready to make a full judgement yet.

Me neither. Like I've said ... I REALLY want to be proved wrong.

 

[Indy Original]

You know, if Frontier wanted to, they could take this 'Odyssey POI re-location problem' and turn it into an opportunity to make the game better than ever... if they could just find the time, they could go through each POI and hand-place it in a suitably impressive location, thus preserving locations that used to be magnificent, while also improving the locations that used to be fairly mundane.

(They could also address some of the incongruities that always existed in Horizons, such as some of the INRA bases having huge tanks of Mycoid when according to the audio logs there should not be any there, or the fact that there is a random INRA base in the very same star system as Commander Jameson's Crash Site... things that never quite made sense before, could potentially be 'fixed' thanks to Odyssey putting the long-established placement of POIs back on the table...)

When Odyssey gives you lemons, make lemonade!

 

[Baxder]

Clavain beat me to it. If you want an indication of how things have changed (and not always for the better), check out the mapping project Clavain linked. Before Odyssey there were lots of interesting Horizons-based POIs being submitted to it nearly every week, and going back 6 years since it began. Since Odyssey was released, there's been two at most, and no offense to those that submitted them, they're not that special.

This could be because people don't want to submit their findings in case they're subject to change in the road map fixes and optimizations, and then again when the console is released. It could also be that the really cool stuff in Odyssey is now ultra rare (which wont be a bad thing really, it makes such places special). I think there's also a case of people too busy looking up at the amazing sky backdrops and sunsets, and not taking too much notice of the geology under their feet! But yes, the new tech is leaving a lot to be desired at the moment.

While I can't speak for the placement of bases etc., I will suggest that patience be exercised when it comes to the discovery of new POI's in the new planetary system. Horizons was released, what, five years ago? The majority of EDSM POI's were added during those intervening years. During that time, CMDRS become accustomed to the sights Horizons offered, and the GMP became ever better-able to evaluate their noteworthiness. In my opinion, the new planetary tech is opening up the opportunity for another era of discovery. Things will look drastically different, and the idea of the extraordinary will require redefinition, but it will be found. Once the kinks are worked out and the tech is working as intended, submissions will begin rolling back in from new players and the veterans who share this view, and the GMP will have to learn all over again what is worthy of addition. Five years from now, how many hundreds more will there be? We'll still miss some of the Horizons POI's, and those of us who submitted them will remain nostalgic for them, but they'll be the VHS memories that undergird our 8k reality. I, for one, very much look forward to it.

 

[yvesmarie]

...

 

[Alec Turner]

Particularly when there are ongoing investigations to the new planetary tech not being exactly 'as anticipated'?

Actually this raises a good point (directed at anyone from Frontier reading this). If (and it's a MASIVE "IF") you do decide that the issues with existing planetary tech warrant another roll of the surface regeneration dice, would you please consider taking slightly more care and attention over the next re-bake? (that's not meant to be sarcastic, I genuine mean "slightly", perhaps just manually place a few dozen choice places such as INRA bases, Guardian sites and a few planetary ports).

Also, I've just been reminded of something I meant to include in the OP (and I'd appreciate @Ian Doncaster's input here). When I went on my trip to Colonia recently I was struck by just how many of the locations out there seemed to have been hand picked for their natural beauty (again, perhaps a case of FD taking the time because only a handful of new locations were being considered). For example ..

Ian ... I assume these have all gone now. Could you share images of what these look like now and also maybe let us know if anything REMOTELY as scenic has been found in Colonia since?

 

[Rudi Raumkraut]

was probably not high on the Odyssey Deadline To-Do list.

This can be read after some posts in nearly every topic...
So what was actually high on that 'list'!?

@OP
I think you can be sure this Cortes Base was handplaced in HZN.
The odds that it's placed procedurally at this exact location would be astronomical I guess

 

[Alec Turner]

While I can't speak for the placement of bases etc., I will suggest that patience be exercised when it comes to the discovery of new POI's in the new planetary system. Horizons was released, what, five years ago? The majority of EDSM POI's were added during those intervening years. During that time, CMDRS become accustomed to the sights Horizons offered, and the GMP became ever better-able to evaluate their noteworthiness. In my opinion, the new planetary tech is opening up the opportunity for another era of discovery. Things will look drastically different, and the idea of the extraordinary will require redefinition, but it will be found. Once the kinks are worked out and the tech is working as intended, submissions will begin rolling back in from new players and the veterans who share this view, and the GMP will have to learn all over again what is worthy of addition. Five years from now, how many hundreds more will there be? We'll still miss some of the Horizons POI's, and those of us who submitted them will remain nostalgic for them, but they'll be the VHS memories that undergird our 8k reality. I, for one, very much look forward to it.

Hear hear, well said and I sincerely hope you're right. The only reason I'm raising this issue now rather than being patient is because, IF there is a genuine problem with Odyssey not generating terrain that's as scenic as Horizons (or placing POI's in it) then we stand a better chance of it being addressed and re-baked now (while Odyssey planets are still in flux) than later when the galaxy has settled down and shifting things around again would cause far more problems (and thus be far less likely to happen).

 

[Alec Turner]

I think you can be sure this Cortes Base was handplaced in HZN.
The odds that it's placed procedurally at this exact location would be astronomical I guess

I think I agree. If you take that Colonia base I mentioned into account as well ... astronomical² even?

 

[GloatingSwine]

I have a suspicion that the regeneration of planet surfaces in Odyssey had a lot of the generation constraints, especially for height variation, set much more strictly. So that planet surfaces don't do dramatic any more.

Another casualty is the deep canyon at Turner Metallics is now only just long enough to contain the preplaced landing pads that are in it and just completely disappears each end of them.