Headlook automatically follow target?

[Rookie Ray]

Mild disagreement with highlighted part of your post

I use FaceTrackNoIR for a good few weeks now and it's working really well for me. The solution has its downsides and it isn't perfect - true. I have to press the reset view button every now and then when I adjust my position in the chair, it won't work when it's too dark in the room for the webcam to "see" my face and also when I eat or drink something the tracking gets disrupted, but I think these are minor disadvantages compared to price (it's free).

I don't find it glitchy at all. It works perfectly fine, subject to right conditions (webcam being able to see your face).

It does not require a lot of set up. Where did you get that idea from? All you have to do is download an updated config file from internet, stick it in the right folder, tick a box to invert Z axis in the settings and you're ready to go. That really isn't a lot to do... If you want, you can fine tune the tracking by adjusting the input/output curves, but the default setting works pretty good too.

Saying that, I have never tried TrackIR system, so the only thing I can really compare is the price. TrackIR: £140. FaceTrackNoIR: Free

It's generally just a case of response time, the TrackIR running at 120 fps you can really feel it.
FaceTrack has issues tracking, well, your face. Long hair will mess it up when looking down, a large beard will mess it up when looking up.
It requires a lot more resetting where my trackir is really just a case of launch the game, hit F12 to center it and bobs your uncle.

Maybe I'm bitter because I have an abnormal face. RIP

The price is a big factor but I play a lot of flight sims so I use it all the time and don't really mind.

I guess it's really a case of how much you use it.

I used facetrack for about 6 months and now I wouldn't dream of flying without the track ir, it's a great tool if you have the money.

 

[DarkMere]

Tried FaceTrackNoIR I just could not get it working reliably for me, I have a beard, glasses, light shines in from a window right on my face, light behind me at night, or no light at all, meant too much fiddling for me. I am sure it will work great if you get everything right.

I bought EDTracker and am now enjoying its use and find it adds to the game a great deal, but can confirm that it does not really make you a better combat pilot, at least not for me. In my case it just makes having the tish kicked out of me so much more immersive.

 

[Zenicetus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witzo
Never in any game have I come across a better tool for situational awareness than the Elite radar ellipse.

Indeed, between that, the target panel and the compass you have all the info you need. In fact I would go as far as to say that in combat I only need the center 2 or 3 inches of screen for fine aiming, the rest is superfluous and useful for immersion purposes only.

The advantage of TrackIR over just the sensor screen and the other lower instruments, is that while you have eyes on current target, you can also see what's happening around your target. You can see if someone else is firing on it, or catch glimpses of other ships nearby that might affect the tactical situation. You can see the "smoke" trails to help indicate flight path. All sorts of visual cues you don't get from just the lower sensors if your head is down and you don't see what's happening around the bandit as soon as you can pull him into the upper canopy view. So I feel it's not just for "immersion"... there's a lot of valuable information there for situational awareness.

That's a paid solution though, I don't see the evil in adding it as an option in game - or am I missing something?

I've tried to track using the HAT switch but honestly it didn't work as well as in other flight sims.

I've read arguments pro and con about a padlock view being a "cheat".... not just here, but it's a common topic in air combat forums.

There is some small amount of skill required to predict where your target will appear in the canopy when you're in a tail chase, based on other sensor data when using a hat switch for manual views, or a head tracker. Padlock view shortcuts that, and just swings your view automatically and sticks it there. But that's a very mild "cheat" I think, and it wouldn't hurt to have it for for those who want it. At least it's not as bad as target icons shown around the edge of the game screen, indicating which way to turn. That's a bit too far in the arcade game direction, and I'm glad FD didn't use it.

The balance against that small advantage, is that padlock view systems can be disorienting, and often aren't easy to get in and out of quickly. With TrackIR I can have eyes on the bandit in my upper canopy, then briefly glance away at the sensor screen to check six, and back again at the bandit. Or over to a side menu and back. If the bandit manages to leave my canopy area, my view doesn't "break" like it does in many padlock systems. I can keep my eyes pointed there and know I'm about to pull him back into view again. Head tracking (or manual hat view) is just more flexible. You're in control, not a programmed view system. So that balances any cheat aspect of padlock view, in my... er, view.

 

[Receptor]

As I mentioned the topic in several other threads I thought to give my opinion, too.

I agree you get a huge advantage with tracking or VR over other players without padlock view. It´s not marginal. I experienced it lately at Erianin 2 - I was loosing constantly to the same players and when I asked, it was VR or tracking that they had in common as I suspected. When I saw some vids of people playing with such gadgets it became clear to me why that was: much better situational awareness.

As Elite will have free and open PvP I think it is just fair to implement padlock-view or at least some form of target direction indicator.

Elite is gonna attract a lot of players, who don´t come from flightsims, and to expect them all to buy tracking or VR to stay competitive in a MP-combat oriented game is wishfull thinking.

Another option would be to mark players with tracking or VR, so you can choose to ignore them and not being pushed to fight against them. However this is not very elegant. I for my part am done with fighting them, as it´s simply no fun.

 

[Robert Maynard]

A
I agree you get a huge advantage with tracking or VR over other players without padlock view. It´s not marginal.

As Elite will have free and open PvP I think it is just fair to implement padlock-view or at least some form of target direction indicator.

From Mike Evans:

My feeling is that to make padlock not be some godlike feature that you use to automatically lock onto targets no matter what you'd have to have a bunch of stuff automatically control how and when it works. Those automatic actions, like resetting it to a forwards view when the target goes out of sight will I think be jarring for the player because they're not in control of it like they are when they manually look around. Also after it's reset presumably the pad lock is still toggled on so as soon as the conditions are met for it to re-lock onto the target it will which could be as equally jarring. The only sensible solution to this I feel is to not have any form of automated control at all and just have the pad lock stay locked on no matter what because at least then the player is the arbiter on when it should and should do anything by toggling it on or off. But that is too unbalanced. I would rather give the advantage to those that have head tracking devices that implement such a pad lock. At least head tracking devices are within the spirit of the game what with moving your own head like your ships avatar does to look around.

 

[Sioux]

IMO if haven't tried out any headtracking solution, you are missing out on a great experience and gameplay. Headtracking, when done well, is super-super-immersive and it all feels very natural.

I always thought a headtracking solution was too expensive for me and not that important for gameplay. In flightsims I always used padlock-keys and mouselook to look around. But after many years I finally wanted to try headtracking. I'm only sorry I didn't try it out sooner, because I'll never go back to the old ways. I'm using Track-ir for 2 years now. I'm very happy that ED is supporting headtracking, it makes it so much better.

 

[Receptor]

OK, so Mike thinks padlock is unbalanced and because of that he´d rather give the advantage to players using gadgets. Don´t be surprised, if normal players keep complaining and if that´s most of your players, if they are forced to compete in open/free PvP.

All the other games and sims which have padlock found a way to implement it, but for Elite it´s unbalanced - while having gadgets is not.

C´mon... as a game designer I´m confident you can find ways to implement some nicely working padlock view or other thing to compensate for the VR/tracking players huge advantage.
Give it some delay, make it switchable or let the users decide themselfes via options, how exactely they like it (in terms of resetting the view, etc.).


I re-read Mikes statement, but it really is kinda wierd how he thinks padlock is unbalanced but the advantage of having VR/tracking is within Elites spirit... I don´t want to ban gadgets, of course not, but I don´t see his arguments for not implementing padlock as compensation. Especially I don´t see how padlock is more unbalanced than VR/tracking. It´s not such an uncommon or superficial feature to ask for at all.

 

[Zenicetus]

I re-read Mikes statement, but it really is kinda wierd how he thinks padlock is unbalanced but the advantage of having VR/tracking is within Elites spirit... I don´t want to ban gadgets, of course not, but I don´t see his arguments for not implementing padlock as compensation. Especially I don´t see how padlock is more unbalanced than VR/tracking. It´s not such an uncommon or superficial feature to ask for at all.

Here's how I think it fits in with the Elite spirit. There is a general design philosophy in this game aimed at hands-on, manual flying with few artificial aids. There is no autopilot once we've locked in a nav target, no ILS landing system (we have to manually fly to the station entrance), and while there is a docking computer available, the quickest way to get to the pad is with a hands-on approach (important for smugglers). And we still have to manually fly the exit from the station. The only time we can take out hands off the flight controls, is the brief time spent in hyperspace jumps.

If you think about padlock view vs. head tracking in that context, it makes sense that FD wants us to manually find and track the target, whether it's with a head tracker or use of keys/joystick view hats, and not have an "view autopilot" that does it for us.

 

[Receptor]

... it´s not that hard to move your head around. There is no difficulty or challange involved in using a tracker, is it?

People really try to justify not having padlock by saying it makes live too easy or is unbalanced, but use trackers and VR without recognizing the extreme advantage it gives them.

I don´t want padlock for it´s own sake, but with such gadgets it´s simply needed to compensate! When not doing PvP I never missed padlock view.

This is open/free PvP - if you give all non tracker/VR players such a big disadvantage without some compensation you can expect a s.storm comming. As of now I´d put a big sign on the website: VR or tracking strongly recommended for MP gameplay!

 

[Zvanya]

There seems to be a consensus that owning a head tracking or VR device gives you an advantage. In other words you pay for an advantage. Is this not the definition of Pay to Win?

 

[Zenicetus]

... it´s not that hard to move your head around. There is no difficulty or challange involved in using a tracker, is it?

Well yeah, there is some challenge. You have to anticipate when to look away from other flight instruments when the target is about to pull into view through your canopy, and you have to decide whether to keep looking in that direction when they move outside the canopy. Padlock view does that for you. Some padlock systems even track targets as they move outside the canopy viewing area, anywhere in your cockpit (IIRC, Falcon 3.0 worked like that). I don't know if FD would do that, because it really is a bit of a cheat (IMO).

This is open/free PvP - if you give all non tracker/VR players such a big disadvantage without some compensation you can expect a s.storm comming. As of now I´d put a big sign on the website: VR or tracking strongly recommended for MP gameplay!

Well, one could say the same thing about a full HOTAS control setup with rudder pedals too, yes? Or a fast enough computer. This "game" is much more like a traditional air combat sim than a first person shooter, and air combat games have always given an advantage to those with good accessory hardware for an edge in combat. And at least with head tracking, it looks like there are some very inexpensive DIY projects that work. So there isn't even a major cost argument here, like there is with the better HOTAS control setups.

 

[Tar Stone]

The il2 cliffs of dover servers disable padlock view, because you can lock up a target with it even if you have physically lost sight of it.

I think it's the same thinking here. Padlocking removes an element of skill.

Head tracking is so worthwhile.

 

[Receptor]

Something slightly abridged and expanded I wrote in another thread:

You´re right, here are some things which give you advantages, a HOTAS as you mentioned, TripleScreen, 4K (better accuracy I figured), surround sound and such.
However I think in the case of "tracking/VR" vs. "monitor only" play the advantage is too big to be ignored or not compensated for if you have free PvP.

People arguing against it seem all to be owners of a tracker, so I ask:
You wouldn´t be affected by this feature at all, when using a tracker anyways, so why are you opposing it? It just gives all players the same possibilities.

If padlock is unbalanced or not is a matter of implementation. If it tracks ships out of sight, it would be imba for sure, so don´t let it do so. Some other mechanic would do it for me, too (e.g. target marker), just something to compensate for VR/tracking users abilities.

Any option to exclude yourself from PvP with augmented players would be a less elegant option, too.

Tracking hardware is just no cost factor, if you go DIY. This involves soldering skills, time and knowledge only a fraction of players posses. How about giving a tracker away together with the game? Even then, I´m not sure I´d use it, because I always disliked the things because your monitor doesn´t move with your head, which leads to some strange peering.

 

[Kross]

While this thread has definitely morphed into a more complex discussion from my original intent, I found it pertinent to update everyone from my end on my head-look status; I recently got the TrackIR 5 (with the headset clip) and let me tell you, it is a WORLD of difference.

Now, not saying that the difference occurred overnight; I had to train myself to look at precisely the right angles to bring up the UI (if you waver a little, the UI screen disappears). Also, I found that when I was in certain situations I tended to move my head with the movement of my ship; this turned out to be annoying when the movement of my head actually caused the view to shift, haha.

But all in all, I found TrackIR to be a magnificent tool. Much like when I switched from my combo of Keyboard + Mouse to the current X55 HOTAS.

So I guess for me, it come down to this: in ED, flying with a joystick is easier/more effective than flying with Keyboard + Mouse. In the same way, headlook is easier/more effective with head tracking than it is with manual/stick tracking.

While I am not as knowledgeable as some of you on here, I don't see why any sort of padlock feature has to be added for this... I mean, we didn't need to add anything for the Keyboard + mouse users, right? If you wanted to play with a joystick, you bought one, and your life was easier. I see this as a direct parallel.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Receptor]

For keyboard and mouse users there is some difference in the HUD. For example the arrow showing where you point and how fast you turn. This was done to compensate for the joystick inherent advantage.

I ask for some compensation for the "WORLD of difference" VR/tracking makes. And I think it´s more of an advantage than a joystick. In fact in some situations mouse/keyboard is even superior.

Again: As you own a tracker now, why oppose that? Fearing to loose your bought advantage? ;-)

 

[Armour]

VR and/or head-tracking solutions are of very little use for players with limited neck mobility.

 

[Kross]

For keyboard and mouse users there is some difference in the HUD. For example the arrow showing where you point and how fast you turn. This was done to compensate for the joystick inherent advantage.

I ask for some compensation for the "WORLD of difference" VR/tracking makes. And I think it´s more of an advantage than a joystick. In fact in some situations mouse/keyboard is even superior.

Again: As you own a tracker now, why oppose that? Fearing to loose your bought advantage? ;-)

Haha, not worried about losing any advantage, since even with TrackIR I'm pretty sure I wouldn't come out alive against the majority of you pilots; I'm not terribly polished at the game.

I was just giving my $0.02 in the matter because I have no idea how big/small of a comparative balance issue it could/might be for the game devs, but in my mind I compared it to just an external tool that makes interfacing with the game easier. Your point about the mouse arrow though was a good one; didn't think of that.