PvP Heal beams, Premium ammo synth and crimes on. Why so much crying over them?

[Madrax573]

Ok the last few days I've had numerous conversations with various PvP'ers who really can't get over the use of legitimate in game tactics.

They constantly spew histeronics over them yet when questioned and asked for a logical answer they just resort to calling out their use a being crappy and you are just bad for using them...
These people I call the 'leet' pvp'ers as they seem to think they are the top rung of the PvP community in ED yet just come across a whiney children.


So I thought I'd come tothe PvP pages and see what the actual PvP community think (well the one who frequent the forums that is )
Are the use of these so deplorable that people who use them are just bad and should dock up or are they legitimate tactics that the 'leet' just need to get over?

For clarity I don't have a PvP focus in ED as I find it's not a game conductive to the kind of PvP I like (there are various reasons for that which we can discuss seperately if you so desire) but I've been a MMO PvP'er for decades and you can spot certain type of people prett yquicking in MMO's.

Flame on

 

[jamenator94]

TL,DR the game is balanced horribly, to the point that using some """""""tactics""""""" is game breaking. Applies to PvP battles as well as things like powerplay.

 

[Madrax573]

TL,DR the game is balanced horribly, to the point that using some """""""tactics""""""" is game breaking. Applies to PvP battles as well as things like powerplay.

Well assuming I haven't read the 56 page essay on how unbalnced the game is can you please add a tad more detail to your points?

 

[besieger]

Premium - Not that much of an issue really as most people who use it are generally bad or use it to make up for a flaw in their build, I use premium when ganking for example, so I can insta kill a ship before it logs.
Crimes on - A tactic used by many players but one of the lesser issues of the game in reality, most players will drag the other player from the police to remove the aggro of the police from the fight.
Healing beams - 110% broken... plain and simple it takes approximately 6+ of the same weapon class and size to defeat a single healing weapon, combine this with the ways you can reduce distro draw and you can make a ship literally impossible to kill

 

[jamenator94]

There's been plenty of chat about heal beams, basically it's impossible to out damage healing. Multiple wings are out healed by one beam, makes getting kills or forcing people out nigh on impossible. People will just run out of ammo.

Premium is less bad, it's more that it's a pain to grind and you don't know if people are using it. If everyone used it all the time you'd have to spend hours grinding mats which we all want to avoid.

 

[da_wae]

Healing beams are as broken as the rest of the engineering. But at least they only serve to keep people alive, I haven't heard the last time a healing beam was used to gank some poor Eravate Sidey...

The rest is mostly a non-issue, including premium ammo.

 

[Falter]

Ok the last few days I've had numerous conversations with various PvP'ers who really can't get over the use of legitimate in game tactics.

They constantly spew histeronics over them yet when questioned and asked for a logical answer they just resort to calling out their use a being crappy and you are just bad for using them...
These people I call the 'leet' pvp'ers as they seem to think they are the top rung of the PvP community in ED yet just come across a whiney children.


So I thought I'd come tothe PvP pages and see what the actual PvP community think (well the one who frequent the forums that is )
Are the use of these so deplorable that people who use them are just bad and should dock up or are they legitimate tactics that the 'leet' just need to get over?

For clarity I don't have a PvP focus in ED as I find it's not a game conductive to the kind of PvP I like (there are various reasons for that which we can discuss seperately if you so desire) but I've been a MMO PvP'er for decades and you can spot certain type of people prett yquicking in MMO's.

Flame on

Crimes is eh debatable. Generally speaking it's a non issue, but it's mostly just an annoyance or troll in PVP. Generally speaking if players are intentionally using it - it's more as a sign that they either need to to supplement their damage or builds, or they simply want to cause grievance to others.


Premiums, are in my opinion, very controversial.
While sure, you could spend the hours grinding to get that instant 30% damage boost - it's not really a good indication that you're actually demonstrating your own ability in combat. Just, relying on the power that the premium kinda' gives you. In my opinion, it can be just as broken as heals - but, similar to crimes - it's more used to cause grievances to others and to disrespect a more fair engagement, rather than a demonstration of one's actual ability or merit.


Heal beams are beyond broken.
While you can peel heal ships off, it's at the cost of the health of yourself or your own wing. Time spent focusing a healer or peeling them away is time the enemy wing can rally to overcome it's shortcoming. It's usually not a good sign that you're playing based on your own merits, so it's just a bit slimey to do. Over-reliance on heals usually means that the player only really builds to do specific things too, which in my humble opinion - kills the more broader aspect of what PVP is.

 

[Madrax573]

Premium - Not that much of an issue really as most people who use it are generally bad or use it to make up for a flaw in their build, I use premium when ganking for example, so I can insta kill a ship before it logs.
Crimes on - A tactic used by many players but one of the lesser issues of the game in reality, most players will drag the other player from the police to remove the aggro of the police from the fight.
Healing beams - 110% broken... plain and simple it takes approximately 6+ of the same weapon class and size to defeat a single healing weapon, combine this with the ways you can reduce distro draw and you can make a ship literally impossible to kill

An excellent summary response.

I'm an Ex EvE pvper so the use of premium ammo etc is standard practice if you want to kill your target fast etc. Spider tanking is a thing so sounds like the heal beams could do with some tweaking etc to get that balance back.

 

[Sole Hunter]

if a mechanic allows me to grief harder and more efficiently, I will use it.

 

[ryan_m]

Heal beams are beyond broken.
While you can peel heal ships off, it's at the cost of the health of yourself or your own wing. Time spent focusing a healer or peeling them away is time the enemy wing can rally to overcome it's shortcoming. It's usually not a good sign that you're playing based on your own merits, so it's just a bit slimey to do. Over-reliance on heals usually means that the player only really builds to do specific things too, which in my humble opinion - kills the more broader aspect of what PVP is.

One heal beam can be overcome pretty easily in a wing fight but the main problem is when EVERYONE has them. In most games, if you spec into the healer role, you're significantly less effective as a damage dealer but in Elite, you can still do a ton of damage and be an effective wing mate. The lack of downsides to running heals is the biggest problem.

Personally, I'd like to see heal beams transfer shields from one ship to another so you could have someone spec into healing with a beefy prismatic and SCBs. That way, there is a fixed amount of MJ in a fight. At that point, the rate of healing/transfer doesn't matter because you can truly focus the healer and make them bug out instead of seeing a full wing pulling infinite MJ out of the ether.

 

[AP Birdman]

Just got my popcorn.

Lol use your pathetic heal beams and crimes but don't cry when we make fun of you.

I don't understand the complaints about premium ammo though.

 

[bitstorm]

I don't understand the complaints about premium ammo though.

I do, even as non-PvPer.

Premium ammo seems like the doings of some sadistic game designer who literally hates players.

I struggle to think of anything worse if healthy PvP is your goal.

 

[besieger]

I do, even as non-PvPer.

Premium ammo seems like the doings of some sadistic game designer who literally hates players.

I struggle to think of anything worse if healthy PvP is your goal.

As I said in my post those that use premium are generally bad and use it to close the skill gap... and the typical response to those that crutch on it is as you can see "there is nothing wrong with it", premium should be removed entirely... it only serves to give an advantage to those willing to grind for it, and even then its super easy to grind for if you know where to go.

 

[Tiili]

Reverberating Cascade > Healing Beams.

You always need a torpedo guy to handle the healer in a wing, it could be argued that they are also op af as they completely negate healing beams that completely negate the damage from two wings as someone said here xD

 

[bitstorm]

As I said in my post those that use premium are generally bad and use it to close the skill gap... and the typical response to those that crutch on it is as you can see "there is nothing wrong with it", premium should be removed entirely... it only serves to give an advantage to those willing to grind for it, and even then its super easy to grind for if you know where to go.

That sounds like the view of someone on the higher tiers of PvP.

Not sure it's that cool if your an average PvPer.

But I'm not a PvPer so who knows.

 

[jamenator94]

Reverberating Cascade > Healing Beams.

You always need a torpedo guy to handle the healer in a wing, it could be argued that they are also op af as they completely negate healing beams that completely negate the damage from two wings as someone said here xD

Like Ryan said, one healer isn't so bad as you can focus them out of the fight, its when there are multiple heals that its impossible.

Anyway, re: torps, they are really, really hard to land and basically rely on the target messing up, they're very slow and don't turn well so people have to basically fly into them. While they can have some surprise factor and work occasionally its really not a counter.

 

[Slange Lands]

Aren't there different types of PvPers? Naturally, each will use the game's available tools to their advantage. I'm going to start a list, maybe others could add or amend.

Pvper type 1: purist, interested primarily in actual skill and perhaps theory crafting. A pilot who wishes to PvP primarily to learn new tactics or skill sets. Sportsmanship is a matter of honor. This is more like say athletic team competition.

Pvper type 2: interested primarily in winning above all else. This is like when countries are at war with each other. All's fair in love and war.

Pvper type 3 : hybrid of type 1 and type 2

There is something to be said for someone willing to take the time and grind for Premium Ammo mats. However, if they win a fight due mostly to the 30% damage boost, that person can only truthfully claim that they won the fight, not that they were the better pilot. They may have been better armed for the fight, but armament has nothing to do with skill, only amount of resources. I think what the purists are chafing against is the assumption that whoever wins is more "leet."

There is already so much grind in this game. I wish it would stop, Please.

Thanks.

o7

 

[moose666]

Reverberating Cascade > Healing Beams.

You always need a torpedo guy to handle the healer in a wing, it could be argued that they are also op af as they completely negate healing beams that completely negate the damage from two wings as someone said here xD

If it is a healing wing consisting of hull tankers with dustcover biweaves, then even if you by some stroke of luck do land the torpedos, the victim should still has plenty of armour to tough through a reboot repair and shield regeneration to start the cycle again in ~1 minute. Meanwhile the torp ship has to vacate the fight to reload.
The healbeam regeneration rate is such that even low hundreds of MJ can pose an insurmountable bulwark for one or 2 attackers.

 

[besieger]

Aren't there different types of PvPers? Naturally, each will use the game's available tools to their advantage. I'm going to start a list, maybe others could add or amend.

Pvper type 1: purist, interested primarily in actual skill and perhaps theory crafting. A pilot who wishes to PvP primarily to learn new tactics or skill sets. Sportsmanship is a matter of honor. This is more like say athletic team competition.

Pvper type 2: interested primarily in winning above all else. This is like when countries are at war with each other. All's fair in love and war.

Pvper type 3 : hybrid of type 1 and type 2

There is something to be said for someone willing to take the time and grind for Premium Ammo mats. However, if they win a fight due mostly to the 30% damage boost, that person can only truthfully claim that they won the fight, not that they were the better pilot. They may have been better armed for the fight, but armament has nothing to do with skill, only amount of resources. I think what the purists are chafing against is the assumption that whoever wins is more "leet."

There is already so much grind in this game. I wish it would stop, Please.

Thanks.

o7

Your break down does get close but still falls short due to the complexity of combat in Elite, though I see where you are going with your point.

Truthfully this entire thread just shows how poor the balance in Elite really is... and this mainly due to Frontier insistence on listening to those who do not know what they are talking about in terms of PVP or Combat in general.

I have seen requests for Frontier to give them gimbaled plasma accelerators or to have an attacker be placed in some kind of "jail" for a month...

 

[Screemonster]

If more module damage through shields was a thing, healbeams and SCBs wouldn't be nearly as much of a game-changer. Pretty much the only thing you can counter them with are specific hardcounter engineering effects like reverb/feedback cascade, or the pain-in-the--to-use remote-release flechette launchers. Other than that the only way to really do any module damage at all to a shieldtank is through heat effects which have been nerfed to hell.

Like, wasn't that part of the reason why the old heat meta was such a thing and got so much whining as a result? That people were getting mad that their stacked-up godshields were actually taking module damage?