Heat will be the new "meta"?

M4rt1n · May 4, 2016

Hi CMDRs!

In yesterday's stream there were some comments from Mark and Sandro regarding Powerplay modules & crafting. Seems like it will be possible to add effects to PP weapons too, and the guys commented on the interesting combinations, and in particular the Retribution laser (formerly known as Mr. Mahons hair-dryer) modded with a thermal shock effect.

Also, Sandro and Mark stated that there will be changes to discourage the current SR/rail "meta", basically if you run silent, the weapons heat buildup will increase. So changes are inbound regarding heat. Also, plans were mentioned to nerf HSLs.

In my mind's eye I see a wing of 4 Asps, armed with Retributions w/thermal shock focusing heat rays on stuff.

What do you think?

the100thmonkey · May 4, 2016

I think that might be where the "not working as intended " line comes from - I recall reading waaaaay back (more than a year ago) that heat management was intended to be a primary factor in both piloting and loadout decisions.

Conch · May 4, 2016

im just wondering what kind of awesome stuff i can do with my APA and Packhounds...

John Ring · May 4, 2016

M4rt1n said:
In my mind's eye I see a wing of 4 Asps, armed with Retributions w/thermal shock focusing heat rays on stuff.

ASPs? Why ASPs?
The best Heat Managing ship (that I have flown) is the FDL. It is basically a huge Heat Sink. Never had the need to carry Heatsinks. Could FuelScoop and charge the FSD at the same time without even reaching the 90% Heat Range...
So in the Heat meta my ship of choice would be (without a second thought) the FDL.

Ian Skippy · May 4, 2016

Heat should be way more important. Btw, why does every change have to be called 'new meta'. I've seen ar least four new meta's on this board a past few days. Sounds... Silly.

Han Brannigan · May 4, 2016

sleutelbos said:
Heat should be way more important. Btw, why does every change have to be called 'new meta'. I've seen ar least four new meta's on this board a past few days. Sounds... Silly.

Well this is a forum about a space game with hyperjumps and colored lasers - some silliness has to be expected ;-)

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John Ring said:
ASPs? Why ASPs?
The best Heat Managing ship (that I have flown) is the FDL..

Because the Retribution laser is a lvl 1 beam...

hairychris · May 4, 2016

It already is with a lot of builds - my 2 x large 1 x med lasers in a Python need careful attention as it is.

the ability of mods to directly influence this is very interesting indeed. I'm not even thinking of silent running PvP as I'm a PvEer, but as a strategy against NPC builds and their possible strategy against me.

M4rt1n · May 4, 2016

John Ring said:
ASPs? Why ASPs?
The best Heat Managing ship (that I have flown) is the FDL. It is basically a huge Heat Sink. Never had the need to carry Heatsinks. Could FuelScoop and charge the FSD at the same time without even reaching the 90% Heat Range...
So in the Heat meta my ship of choice would be (without a second thought) the FDL.

Asp becouse it can mount 6 said lasers vs 5 of FdL, and I think with each retribution/thermal shock will add some heat to the target you want as many heat rays focusing on unfortunate target as possible. Also, as Han Brannigan pointed out, retribution is a class 1 laser. Heat dissipipiation, while inportant, it is a secondary point in this case.

Also, maybe I was choosing the wrong words for this discussion: I mean heat strategy as a way to blow up ships. Retribution was not working (well still not working, but according to Sandro it will be fixed in 2.1), and we didn't have thermal shock mod to use the mechanic of dumping heat INTO the target. Target overheats - target blows up. Thats what I mean.

John Ring · May 4, 2016

Han Brannigan said:
Because the Retribution laser is a lvl 1 beam...

M4rt1n said:
Asp becouse it can mount 6 said lasers vs 5 of FdL, and I think with each retribution/thermal shock will add some heat to the target you want as many heat rays focusing on unfortunate target as possible.

Ok, makes sense... (though still would not take an ASP [rolleyes])

Majinvash · May 4, 2016

Like most things which could be good.

If this heat ray proves to be too powerful, it will receive the nerf bat pretty quick.
One would assume that the laser will have a counter or a downside.

I still think FD have set themselves up for a world of balancing pain.
I say this as they still haven't balanced the weapons we have had since start of game.

I predict the missiles are actually going to be the most OP initially

If they are going to fix HRP, which is my biggest game issue.
Assuming that ships can actually be destroyed again in under an hour, most ships will have to run shields again.

While the obvious solution is point defense, most people aren't going to run it and for good reason.
We don't have enough utility points on a ship for that and heatsinks for SCB use, chaff for anti-gimbles, shield boosters, K or Cargo scans.

The module targeting missiles are going to be super fun!

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Chris Simon · May 4, 2016

OP, heat will not be a new "meta" (btw. I really hate that word in conjunction with gaming)
Heat was always supposed to be one of the main gameplay features. Maybe one day will be.

Windscreen Smudge · May 4, 2016

I think that FDev don't have the experience to balance multiplayer PvP, and that their idea of breaking up the meta is going to be "let's make our own meta because better the devil you know".

Which won't change anything about how PvP works, just the loadouts that people use.

Love ya FDev, but you're really, really bad at ship balance. Just one word of advice: Stop worrying about what the players are doing or what they might do, and just make it work. The rest will come out in the wash.

M4rt1n · May 4, 2016

John Ring said:
Ok, makes sense... (though still would not take an ASP [rolleyes])

Asp is actually a pretty powerful ship, with surprising firepower!

The_Quasar · May 4, 2016

Windscreen Smudge said:
I think that FDev don't have the experience to balance multiplayer PvP, and that their idea of breaking up the meta is going to be "let's make our own meta because better the devil you know".

Which won't change anything about how PvP works, just the loadouts that people use.

Love ya FDev, but you're really, really bad at ship balance. Just one word of advice: Stop worrying about what the players are doing or what they might do, and just make it work. The rest will come out in the wash.

Unfortunately, even if they got it exactly right, they'd change it because some players would whine.

Chris Simon · May 4, 2016

Windscreen Smudge said:
I think that FDev don't have the experience to balance multiplayer PvP, and that their idea of breaking up the meta is going to be "let's make our own meta because better the devil you know".

Which won't change anything about how PvP works, just the loadouts that people use.

Love ya FDev, but you're really, really bad at ship balance. Just one word of advice: Stop worrying about what the players are doing or what they might do, and just make it work. The rest will come out in the wash.

You know, I think they are pretty good at balancing things. There will always be that one best ship, that one strongest gun or this one most successful tactic. In every game. Is your idea of balanced game 30 different looking ships with completely similar stats and 40 guns with 40 different effects that deal the same damage?

I never had problems even with craziest setups. Elite ships and guns are great and if you are used to your setup, no matter what it is, you will be successful in PvP. there are setups that are easier to use, yes, but that's alright.
But hell, I fought off a wing of three silent FAS with a Cutter fully equipped with frag turrets! And it was fun.

anikaiful · May 4, 2016

John Ring said:
ASPs? Why ASPs?
The best Heat Managing ship (that I have flown) is the FDL. It is basically a huge Heat Sink. Never had the need to carry Heatsinks. Could FuelScoop and charge the FSD at the same time without even reaching the 90% Heat Range...
So in the Heat meta my ship of choice would be (without a second thought) the FDL.

FDL... one of the few ships which I can jump straight from fuel-scooping corona without worry about overheating - in heavy combat build. Zorgon Peterson certain knows how to build ships...

Lateralus · May 4, 2016

Rainbow lasers will be the new meta because everyone will be getting random special effects from Galbet..

Windscreen Smudge · May 4, 2016

Chris Simon said:
You know, I think they are pretty good at balancing things. There will always be that one best ship, that one strongest gun or this one most successful tactic. In every game. Is your idea of balanced game 30 different looking ships with completely similar stats and 40 guns with 40 different effects that deal the same damage?

I never had problems even with craziest setups. Elite ships and guns are great and if you are used to your setup, no matter what it is, you will be successful in PvP. there are setups that are easier to use, yes, but that's alright.
But hell, I fought off a wing of three silent FAS with a Cutter fully equipped with frag turrets! And it was fun.

No, my idea is that even if you have that one best setup, pilots who are close in skill will still have plenty of opportunities to pull out a win against that optimal setup depending on the situation. Instead we have the optimal setup or two, and dozens of other horribly, awfully bad setups that just get you killed when you come up against the optimal setup, even if you are the better skilled pilot.

You know, Balance. Not Homogenization. They are two different things, and if you haven't noticed in the past I've gone off the handle on some pretty hot rants against FD for engaging in homogenization.

Some people will be okay with playing however they wish, because ED has a high skill ceiling. A huge amount of how well a fight goes for any individual is highly dependent on how well that pilot performs. So a very skilled pilot has the ability to pull wins out of otherwise hopeless circumstances due to the sheer scale of variability in pilot performance.

Unlike, say, a game like Checkers, wherein skill will only get you so far before you hit a ceiling in which the game's limitations simply will not allow you to get any better, and that gives the opponent the opportunity to catch up to you at that ceiling.

the100thmonkey · May 4, 2016

sleutelbos said:
Heat should be way more important. Btw, why does every change have to be called 'new meta'. I've seen ar least four new meta's on this board a past few days. Sounds... Silly.

Actually, given the changes to SCBs and the incoming changes to silent running, coupled with the reduction in heat sink ammo, perhaps heat is, and always has been, the only meta.

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anikaiful said:
FDL... one of the few ships which I can jump straight from fuel-scooping corona without worry about overheating - in heavy combat build. Zorgon Peterson certain knows how to build ships...

Let's just say they... listen to feedback

There's always the Scout - the Diamonback, not that ugly Asp Scout - it was doing frosty before frosty was cool. All the other ships are (for) hipsters. They might be hipsters with extremely large guns, but they're still hipsters.

Bigglesof206 · May 4, 2016

sleutelbos said:
Heat should be way more important. Btw, why does every change have to be called 'new meta'. I've seen ar least four new meta's on this board a past few days. Sounds... Silly.

It's that greek cheese stuff innit? I guess it means that the new whatever will be as good as that cheese, so it's a phrase coined by a greek cheese lover at a guess.

(Glad to help)