PvP Help me understand why Corvette is better combat ship than Cutter

[kilon]

I do not own a Corvette, but I am doing the farm to get one
I do own a Cutter that I use multi-purpose
I am clueless when it comes to PVP, but this forum has peaked my interest in giving it a try
I am completely aware that engineering and especially player skill is the big factor

I did engineer my ships for the first time yesterday and indeed even with grade 2 and 3, there is a big difference.

Taking all the above into consideration, I still do not understand why people think that Corvette is a superior combat ship compared to a Cutter

I take those two simple builds

Cutter
https://eddp.co/u/SzYRmFPy

Corvette
https://eddp.co/u/dUYBgsaq

I see a Cutter with around 50% more shield, 50% more fighting power and 30% more boost speed but with the sacrifice of 50% less agility.

What am I missing here?

Is there more than meets the eye?

 

[StiTch]

Is there more than meets the eye?

Yeah. In essence, don't gauge a ship based on its paper stats only, and if you are going to base an opinion on paper stats, at least finish the builds you're comparing.

And if you cannot identify that the DPS difference is because the iCutter is crammed with frags (which are effective for a few kilometers...) where you've taken both the 'vettes biggest points on low-DPS pulses, you probably shouldn't be preparing to jump in the bigger ship.

Clock up your skills in something smaller mate. You're not missing much. Buy and enjoy a FGS or something - that's good training for a bigger ship.

 

[o'moylan]

Yeah. In essence, don't gauge a ship based on its paper stats only, and if you are going to base an opinion on paper stats, at least finish the builds you're comparing.

And if you cannot identify that the DPS difference is because the iCutter is crammed with frags (which are effective for a few kilometers...) where you've taken both the 'vettes biggest points on low-DPS pulses, you probably shouldn't be preparing to jump in the bigger ship.

Clock up your skills in something smaller mate. You're not missing much. Buy and enjoy a FGS or something - that's good training for a bigger ship.

Ouch
Like Danzig said its primarily the agility. This makes all the difference in the world in PvP. Thats why my Cutter and Corvette don't come out to play when I want to PvP. Just not agile enough.

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

Yeah. In essence, don't gauge a ship based on its paper stats only, and if you are going to base an opinion on paper stats, at least finish the builds you're comparing.

And if you cannot identify that the DPS difference is because the iCutter is crammed with frags (which are effective for a few kilometers...) where you've taken both the 'vettes biggest points on low-DPS pulses, you probably shouldn't be preparing to jump in the bigger ship.

Clock up your skills in something smaller mate. You're not missing much. Buy and enjoy a FGS or something - that's good training for a bigger ship.

Another thing may be the Agility rating - the Cutter is second-worst in the game at 71, the Corvette has 111. It's able to bring the guns around to bear faster than the Cutter can.

 

[kilon]

Yeah. In essence, don't gauge a ship based on its paper stats only, and if you are going to base an opinion on paper stats, at least finish the builds you're comparing.

And if you cannot identify that the DPS difference is because the iCutter is crammed with frags (which are effective for a few kilometers...) where you've taken both the 'vettes biggest points on low-DPS pulses, you probably shouldn't be preparing to jump in the bigger ship.

Clock up your skills in something smaller mate. You're not missing much. Buy and enjoy a FGS or something - that's good training for a bigger ship.

So basically what you are saying is that it is the extra agility plus the better position of the weapons. I just make my first steps in PVP and you are absolutely correct I have no intention to use my Cutter for PVP. I am not that stupid. The buyout is insane and I find it very boring in combat because of the sluggish movement. Plus I am fully aware that my bottom will be kicked to kingdom come because I am clueless and I cannot shoot even straight

I have a python which I made a bit more aggressive and a fed Gunship.

I ask because I want to learn, I love my Cutter because in my eye its a beauty, but other than that I am not emotionally investing in this ship and I use many different ships.

 

[Morbad]

'Better' is subjective and 'combat' is a pretty broad topic.

The Cutter and Corvette have very different strengths and weaknesses. The Cutter can control the range of an engagement, and it's pilot better take advantage of that, because it's at a serious disadvantage up close. The Cutter can disengage at will via simply boosting or low-waking, though the Corvette can still disengage virtually at will via high-wake. The Cutter can absorb more damage, but the Corvette can usually dish it out better.

In a direct Cutter vs. Corvette 1v1, the Cutter usually has the edge. I still consider the Corvette superior combat ship, overall, because there are many other combat scenarios where the Corvette will be more useful.

As silly as your proposed builds are, there is more than meets the eye, even there. Biggest thing that comes to mind (other than the missing/placeholder internals) is how crappy frags on a cutter are.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

So basically what you are saying is that it is the extra agility plus the better position of the weapons.

I just make my first steps in PVP and you are absolutely correct I have no intention to use my Cutter for PVP. I am not that stupid. The buyout is insane and I find it very boring in combat because of the sluggish movement. Plus I am fully aware that my will be kicked to kingdom come.

I have a python which I made a bit more aggressive and a fed Gunship.

I ask because I want to learn, I love my Cutter because in my eye its a beauty, but other than that I am not emotionally investing in this ship and I use many different ships.

If you are starting PvP get FDL or FAS.

Anything else is for advanced pvpiers.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I see a Cutter with around 50% more shield, 50% more fighting power and 30% more boost speed but with the sacrifice of 50% less agility.

Well, with fixed weapons that 50% less agility is going to hurt. No point having 50% more firepower on paper if your opponent is never actually in your sights.

The Corvette has an 8A distributor compared with the Cutter's 7A. With a build mostly consisting of Frag Cannons, that's probably no big deal ... with heavier use of railguns or plasma accelerators, then it makes a big difference to sustained firepower.

Raw numbers on Coriolis are nice to know but don't give all the information needed to tell how ships will compare in an actual fight [1] - an FDL has less firepower or shielding than either big ship, but assuming equally good pilots is definitely the favourite to win.

[1] For example: damage caused to either ship by trying to use a full set of large SCBs without any heat sinks is not listed, but would be significant in any real fight.

 

[kilon]

'Better' is subjective and 'combat' is a pretty broad topic.

The Cutter and Corvette have very different strengths and weaknesses. The Cutter can control the range of an engagement, and it's pilot better take advantage of that, because it's at a serious disadvantage up close. The Cutter can disengage at will via simply boosting or low-waking, though the Corvette can still disengage virtually at will via high-wake. The Cutter can absorb more damage, but the Corvette can usually dish it out better.

In a direct Cutter vs. Corvette 1v1, the Cutter usually has the edge. I still consider the Corvette superior combat ship, overall, because there are many other combat scenarios where the Corvette will be more useful.

As silly as your proposed builds are, there is more than meets the eye, even there. Biggest thing that comes to mind (other than the missing/placeholder internals) is how crappy frags on a cutter are.

Completely agree with what you say, can you explain why frags are crappy on cutter ? Is it because it will be harder for it to turn in the short distance the frags require to be effective ?

 

[kilon]

If you are starting PvP get FDL or FAS.

Anything else is for advanced pvpiers.

I had my eye on FDL way back but I also have an Imperial Clipper , from coriolis I see buy out wise they are the same. Is there any significant advantage for a noob like me to prefer FDL ?

 

[o'moylan]

For me Frag's don't work on big ships. I love them on my FDL where I can zoom in and blast you in the face but with the big ships its harder because the smaller ship typically decides how far away the battle is to take place. And with frags you need to get close.

 

[Maka Gucci]

If you are new to PvP forget the Cutter or the Corvette. They are big and slow, and while they can be extremely effective, against anyone with 2 minutes minutes to switch loadouts and come back, you'll be toast to torps. Against anyone half decent in a medium ship, you'll be toast to agility.

Learn in something smaller and cheaper and build up, as you realise how people are and what is actually required you'll design the bigger ship build in your mind.

A big part of PvP (from my perspective) is stopping your opponent from using SCBs and dropping the shields, the most reliable way I've learned is feedback cascade on a rail gun.

Dunno how comfortable you are with fixed weapons, but I suggest throwing 2 PA's and a rail on a Courier or something and getting used to the difference in shooting style.

Build something like this: https://eddp.co/u/TjB897le .. and fully engineer it. That doesn't always mean all G5, the rail will be better as a G1 for example.

Go to a PP hot spot and let the fun commence.

 

[kilon]

If you are new to PvP forget the Cutter or the Corvette. They are big and slow, and while they can be extremely effective, against anyone with 2 minutes minutes to switch loadouts and come back, you'll be toast to torps. Against anyone half decent in a medium ship, you'll be toast to agility.

Learn in something smaller and cheaper and build up, as you realise how people are and what is actually required you'll design the bigger ship build in your mind.

A big part of PvP (from my perspective) is stopping your opponent from using SCBs and dropping the shields, the most reliable way I've learned is feedback cascade on a rail gun.

Dunno how comfortable you are with fixed weapons, but I suggest throwing 2 PA's and a rail on a Courier or something and getting used to the difference in shooting style.

Build something like this: https://eddp.co/u/TjB897le .. and fully engineer it. That doesn't always mean all G5, the rail will be better as a G1 for example.

Go to a PP hot spot and let the fun commence.

Thanks for the build , this is exactly what I wanted, just a good template to start on. This is why I asked about Corvette because I am trying to understand the nature of things, pros and cons, so I can better use them in combat.

 

[Maka Gucci]

I had my eye on FDL way back but I also have an Imperial Clipper , from coriolis I see buy out wise they are the same. Is there any significant advantage for a noob like me to prefer FDL ?

I love the FAS it moves really well, and has become my favorite > FDL. It has weak shields and a strong hull, so you probably would go for an Armored power plant and heavy duty HRPs, then dodge, dodge everything like the plague.

The FDL has so many hard points, you can switch loadout and be effective in the rock paper scissors game without ever having to change (Engineer another) ship. Doesn't fly as well, but still moves nicely.
Good shields but no space for HRPs or module reinforcements so has to rely on 'em.

Which would suit your style more?

*Another big benefit of the FDL for new players, is you don't have to give up one thing for another. You have so many util. slots that you can have heat sinks for SCBs, chaff, PDs and shield boosters. I don't think you can do that on any other < large vessel.

The Clipper has horrid hard point placement (I love the ship, but it's true). If you go for one in PvP, it's usually something like B rated for weight and integrity, with heavy duty shield boosters, double shot frags, and a ram-and-bang play style.
I wouldn't recommend it unless you know you want it

 

[StiTch]

'Better' is subjective and 'combat' is a pretty broad topic.

The Cutter and Corvette have very different strengths and weaknesses. The Cutter can control the range of an engagement, and it's pilot better take advantage of that, because it's at a serious disadvantage up close. The Cutter can disengage at will via simply boosting or low-waking, though the Corvette can still disengage virtually at will via high-wake. The Cutter can absorb more damage, but the Corvette can usually dish it out better.

In a direct Cutter vs. Corvette 1v1, the Cutter usually has the edge. I still consider the Corvette superior combat ship, overall, because there are many other combat scenarios where the Corvette will be more useful.

As silly as your proposed builds are, there is more than meets the eye, even there. Biggest thing that comes to mind (other than the missing/placeholder internals) is how crappy frags on a cutter are.

Speaking as primarily a cutter pilot when given the option between the two, I am still pining for the kind of combat that lets a 'vette show its strengths.

Completely agree with what you say, can you explain why frags are crappy on cutter ? Is it because it will be harder for it to turn in the short distance the frags require to be effective ?

Mate, turning a cutter is like trying to push a cow over with your pinky.

Frags typically ask for close range turn ability and preferably engagement control; the iCutter only controls engagements effectively at long range, especially until you are considerably competent at flying it FA Off and using lateral thrust. At closer ranges a half-well flown FDL will literally just fly circles around you while shooting you, and if you get out of range to gain them in sights again, you're too far out for the frags to work.

Frags are usually something you put on a smaller ship to help topple bigger ships, not the other way around.

 

[kilon]

I actually own a imperial courier too , this and the Clipper I have not really use them, so its a good excuse to use them now. I will buy also FDL thanks again

 

[Jacobus Franconium]

Speaking as primarily a cutter pilot when given the option between the two, I am still pining for the kind of combat that lets a 'vette show its strengths.

That would be large ships capital ships and now thargoids they are large enough to bring the huge hardpoints to bare .

But in my opinion give me the conda any day it may be old and has awkward hard points and weakneses but its build to last. And should be used as the description says light space cruiser.

 

[StiTch]

That would be large ships capital ships and now thargoids they are large enough to bring the huge hardpoints to bare .

But in my opinion give me the conda any day it may be old and has awkward hard points and weakneses but its build to last. And should be used as the description says light space cruiser.

No, it wouldn't.

I am talking content such as defending an area, crowd control...basically any combat with actual context. Something that lets the vette's mighty agility work without its low speed hampering it.

I had my eye on FDL way back but I also have an Imperial Clipper , from coriolis I see buy out wise they are the same. Is there any significant advantage for a noob like me to prefer FDL ?

It has everything going for it. It's well shielded, fast, agile, has a relatively thin hit profile, 6 utility slots, impeccable hardpoint selection (huge and 4 C2 slots, C2 slots being essential for missiles/rails), flies well FA Off...did I mention 6 utility slots?

Basically the only aspects of it that aren't incredibly positive are a) hull hp (still not enough of a handicap to prevent players running it shieldless) and b)...jump range? *chuckles*

 

[ALGOMATIC]

I had my eye on FDL way back but I also have an Imperial Clipper , from coriolis I see buy out wise they are the same. Is there any significant advantage for a noob like me to prefer FDL ?

FDL - the ultimate combat ship in the game, clear meta in PVP. it has speed, shields and DPS. Meta build - Bi weaves with resistance boosters or prismatic with heavy duty, 3 PAs and 2 rails

FAS - second place, an underdog to the FDL but has better agility, cheaper rebuy and almost as much DPS. It is a hull tank and the use of its agility is the key to win fights. You can go without a shield or stick a bi weave with resistance boosters. B rated armored plant, 4 PAS or 2 PA 2 Rails, or 4 frags.

Clipper - the fastest of all 3, same DPS as the FAS but the hardpoint placement means gimbals only, the speed is its key to win fights, its a hull tank with biweave, 2 MC and 2 Pulses, or 4 Frags

 

[Powderpanic]

Cutters are for you noobs. Before engineering you at least had the issue of the bad distributor and horrid turning. G5 them and its mostly a non issue as a Cutter pilot just reverses anyway 99% of the time and then low wakes or boosts away if it comes across a competent Vette pilot.

Is the Vette a better combat ship than the Cutter. Yes, yes it is. But its not stronger.
Because big ship combat comes down to who can tank the most and return the most firepower.

Seeing as it kinda pointless for a Vette to run chaff, you can assume that the disadvantage the Cutter has with its bad weapon convergence is gone.

If you lose a fight and in Cutter, you are doing something wrong.

If you die in a Cutter, uninstall and move on. PVP is not for you.