Hi... and something of a [proposal]

Hi guys,

Great to be here. I grew up playing Elite on my ZX Spectrum :). It essentially ruined my enjoyment of other games -- damn you, David :D, because since then, I've always tended to compare every playing experience I have with how I felt as a kid playing Elite... with most everything I've played since then coming far short of that experience.

So I was very glad to discover the E: D project, and have been lurking the forum on a daily basis since.

Great stuff. I'm excited.

With that out of the way, just a very small grouse and proposal, if I may.

I was a little surprised and slightly dismayed by the body in the cockpit thing that seems to have appeared in one of the alphas. It's for me a slightly kitsch departure (if that's not too bruising a criticism) from what made the Elite games great. It's the kind of thing that made it very difficult for me to get into games like Edge of Chaos (uch... remember that creepy-looking kid?), because I'm not that kid and I could never imagineware him away lol.

I'm expecting to find that body in the cockpit a similar immersion-breaker, as that spacesuit-clad figure isn't me and never will be. I'm me staring at my computer screen (or TV as it was in my Spectrum days), the computer is my viewport and I'm piloting my craft. And that's it. And that's what I adored about Elite: the casual, almost tongue-in-cheek setting of the mise-en-scène in the instruction booklet (God, I miss that booklet :))... and then it's just you out there in space with no further attempt to define who you are or what you are or what you look like or what you dress like. That made Elite great and the experience unduplicable. So, yeah, this 'individual' who's supposed to be an extension of me in the cockpit, but who isn't me, because I look different to him, is something I'm not really feeling. It's very difficult to imagineware a scenario for a third-person figure like that who's dressed differently than you are! I remember, I always even had a problem with the external third-person chaser-cam views of my ship when I was a kid :). I eventually sort of just imaginewared it as advanced technology that could extrapolate your position in space and print it on the HUD. But this third-party figure in the cockpit is not something that's as easy to do that with and is a bit of (that word again...) an immersion-breaker.

So I personally would really love there to be a setting in the options setup to turn him on or off ("Enable figure who's not you in the cockpit: y/n"), especially considering what a departure this figure is to the spirit of the Elite franchise. I wouldn't especially mind an empty seat or whatever, I don't know, but this guy sitting where I'm so good at imagining myself sitting is the kind of thing that can shorten one's interest in a game.

Yeah, so just putting that out there. And again, glad to see this reboot going along so well. Frontier is pure class.
 
Hi Spinblade, welcome to the forum!

I totally understand where you're coming from on this. At the start of the Kickstarter campaign for the game I was very much of a similar disposition to you: that the screen was the ship's viewport, I am at my ship's terminal and there should be no third party in between.

As the project has progressed though it has become clear that the vision for the game is to have a viewpoint through the pilot's eyes, rather than a ship's window.

The good new is that if you're planning to play with a fixed view (i.e. no headlook) then you can't see the body anyway, at least in the Sidewinder, and it does feel like you're looking through the window just like the original games.

Having played the Alpha, I am surprised that my stance on the matter has softened significantly, as it turned out I love looking round the cockpit with the headtracking support. You may find your opinion changes too.

That said, it's the human models of a game that is the hardest to get right and tend to date games the most in years to come, and if you're not intending to get the planned future extension that lets you walk around out of the ship (I'm still torn on this too!) then I agree that it would be a nice option to be able to turn this body model off.
 
Welcome aboard!


I think if you get in there and start playing you may start to feel differently. Honestly the body doesn't bother me and when I'm in the heat of battle I don't even notice it. I think you'll spend more time flying around and having a blast. Sitting and watching someone else do it isn't the same.

Immersion is what you make it. The developers can only do so much, you have to meet them half-way (maybe more).
 
Welcome! I'm a fan of seeing a body in the pilot seat. Mirrors Edge proved to me just how great it can be to look down and see that you are this person in the world. It doesn't make sense to think of the computer screen as your ships view screen when you can look around and get out of your seat to walk around your ship.
 
Personally, with first person games I find not having an avatar to be a huge immersion breaker, and frankly a massive step backwards technology wise (seriously, Operation Flashpoint came out in 2001!).

You're not playing as a disembodied camera, you're playing as a pilot.

Nothing would take me out of the game more than looking down and seeing nothing but an empty seat. The avatar will be needed for the walking around expansion anyway, so might as well get used to it.
 
Welcome Spinblade and I agree with your loathing of the avatar 100%. :smilie: I'm hoping we will be able to turn it off (non game changing option) and have said so many times. It actually put me off using my Oculus Rift as you can't see it on a normal monitor if you don't use headlook and for me that's preferable (Rift now on fleabay).

However I must object to your over use of the word immersion :p Even so I gave you +1 rep. ;)
 
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It's worth saying that OculusVR themselves strongly recommend an 'avatar' for players; they found there was a real disconnecty discombobulation effect (possibly not their exact phrase) without one.

Can't see that the devs would have a problem making it optional though.
 

Jenner

I wish I was English like my hero Tj.
Welcome!

I feel totally the opposite, I'm afraid. I'm looking forward to a more full-featured avatar when the 'walking around ships/stations' module gets released. It's true that the model used right now doesn't bring much to the table. If that were the end of it I'd agree with you...but they've promised so much more surrounding your player avatar!

At least when they finally get around to releasing the animated version (where he/she will mirror actions in the cockpit) it might seem a bit more tolerable to you. I hope. :)

But add my voice to those saying "keep the avatar & make it cool, don't ditch it!"
 
Personally, with first person games I find not having an avatar to be a huge immersion breaker...
Right now we don't have it, but when we do I can't think of anything worse than looking down while wandering around a station and not seeing my feet. :smilie:

When they do get this running, and since they already support Oculus Rift, I would love it if they would support Razer Hydra/STEM System. Imagine walking around a station and holding your hands up in front of you and your avatar does the same!
 
It's worth saying that OculusVR themselves strongly recommend an 'avatar' for players; they found there was a real disconnecty discombobulation effect (possibly not their exact phrase) without one.

Can't see that the devs would have a problem making it optional though.

They do indeed. :( I'm hoping they get enough feedback that some people actually find the opposite - that having a body that is nothing like the viewer, is not wearing what the viewer is, is not moving or sitting like the viewer is - can be disconnecting too.

E.G. order of personal visual preference in space things using the Rift...

1. ED pre avatar
2. Vendetta Online - no ship, no avatar, just space and a hud
3. Titans of space - avatar, BUT you don't see it unless you specifically look way down for it.
4. Ed post avatar - don't play it on the Rift anymore.
 

Mu77ley

Volunteer Moderator
It's worth saying that OculusVR themselves strongly recommend an 'avatar' for players; they found there was a real disconnecty discombobulation effect (possibly not their exact phrase) without one.

Yeah, without some form of "body" you end up feeling like a weird floating head or something.
 
hello spacers

interesting debate, i fall on the side of no avatar but thinking more about it once you get immersed in to the game i really dont think (i`ll) care.
if i think about all the (few) rpgs ive played once your in character your `in` the game ... lol hope that makes sense.
try telling a young one how you were totally there when you played elite on speccy(as i did) they`ll laugh at you .. well most of em.. :):)
 
I want to look down and see tentacles.
VR can teach us how to become non human sentient beings, and believe it/trick the brain..
 
Since I don't currently have TrackIR or an OR, it's not really an issue for me. However I can see the point as it would make the eventual transition from piloting your ship to walking around less jarring. One thing I have to say after watching Pyskowkow's recent twitch session is this; please in the name of Braben give the avatar a head. I'm not asking for fully modelled faces or anything fancy like that, just a plain Stig style helmet would do.
 
I don't even notice my avatar body, and anyway it's just a place-holder until first person elements are introduced.

I know others will disagree passionately, but I don't think it's in the best interests of the game to make ED just a clone of the original game but with fancy graphics, sound, and a bigger map to explore. The game can be so much more than that and it feels like treason not to develop it as far as it can go.
 
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I love floaty detached head syndrome... lol

LOOK its inside my neck!!!

:D

And now a picture of some Elite pilots when they're not at work :p
mannequins_new-essentials-headless.jpg
 
One thing I have to say after watching Pyskowkow's recent twitch session is this; please in the name of Braben give the avatar a head. I'm not asking for fully modelled faces or anything fancy like that, just a plain Stig style helmet would do.

Why would you give the avatar a head when the game is first person? When you look around, how much of your head do you see?! :p It's a bug the way it is, work in progress and all that. You should see roughly what you seen in real life as you look around - your chest, your shoulders - but not your neck or head!

I know others will disagree passionately, but I don't think it's in the best interests of the game to make ED just a clone of the original game but with fancy graphics, sound, and a bigger map to explore. The game can be so much more than that and it feels like treason not to develop it as far as it can go.

As a default, yes. But no harm in giving folks the choice is there, where it has no effect on gameplay, just their personal experience which in no way impacts on yours? "Play the game your way" - seems like treason not to honour that! ;)

As an alternative, middle ground, they could make changes to make the avatar more palatable to those who don't like it at all, and to those who don't mind it but think it looks weird to see the pilot using an X52 HOTAS when they're using an XBox controller or mouse/keyboard, etc. They could make the seating position much less reclined (perhaps not to Babylon 5 Starfury degree, but enough that you properly have to look down to see yourself), they could bring the arms back so it's elbows were roughly in line with the body, they could have the hands obscured be some sort of wrapover information console so you can't really tell what sort of controls he's using.

Most Oculus Rift games/demos I've played you're walking around and you do not see yourself at all unless you look down properly - same as real life, how often are you visually aware of your body as you simply walk for example? It should be pretty much off screen unless you're specifically need/want to look at it. I don't mind having an avatar in those things, it's where it's blatantly obvious I find it distracting at best, experience destroying at worst.
 
I don't mind the body, but what about when other pilots look into our cockpit from the outside, what will they see?

will we see any head customisation options to appear different to everyone else?


I always hated EVE online's concept about how you were inside a blob of jelly or something, I always preferred to think of my pilot as sitting there with his feet up on the dashboard whilst mining.
 
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