High res logging?

[jacozilla]

Combat logging has been deemed bannable by FD, so ok - case closed, no rehashing here re: that

Trade logging has come up for debate on several threads so will also not rehash here - other than briefly remind readers that trade logging is when someone resets their station instance by logging in/out to skip the time needed to fly out of station and reach hyper point

But what about high-res logging? If you are opposed to trade logging, shouldnt you be opposed to high res logging as well?

• in high-res farming, people reset the instance by logging in and out rather than fly out and back in - so as to save time as flying out takes longer

• in trade logging, same thing - logging in and out to avoid the time of flying out of station

i suspect there are people who high-res farm all the time via high-res logging, but are vocal against trade logging. What's the difference?

 

[Soopyyy]

Combat logging has been deemed bannable by FD, so ok - case closed, no rehashing here re: that

Trade logging has come up for debate on several threads so will also not rehash here - other than briefly remind readers that trade logging is when someone resets their station instance by logging in/out to skip the time needed to fly out of station and reach hyper point

But what about high-res logging? If you are opposed to trade logging, shouldnt you be opposed to high res logging as well?

• in high-res farming, people reset the instance by logging in and out rather than fly out and back in - so as to save time as flying out takes longer

• in trade logging, same thing - logging in and out to avoid the time of flying out of station

i suspect there are people who high-res farm all the time via high-res logging, but are vocal against trade logging. What's the difference?

Well, if you don't log in and out you'll get literally nothing for hours, so you might as well not bother. At the end of the day they either make things spawn or we make them spawn, its a game not a job. I shouldn't have to force myself to play it for a entire day just so that I might see something of value .

 

[tetra]

The word "logging" is getting banded about a bit too much now. There is no "logging" if you are not in danger or in a position to lose anything, that is just simply exiting your game. Logging is purely (and should only be applied to) the act of physically terminating the game process, bypassing the normal means, to purposefully prevent damage or loss of a ship at the hands of an NPC or Player.

 

[jacozilla]

I'm not condemning nor defending trade loggin or high-res logging atm - just asking the question because it seems there have been vocal opposition against trade logging in recent threads.

Yet I've not seen single negative response re: high res logging in the many threads / guides optimizing high res hunting.

which then begs the question - what's the difference? If you're against one, why not the other?

 

[Fire70]

I'm not condemning nor defending trade loggin or high-res logging atm - just asking the question because it seems there have been vocal opposition against trade logging in recent threads.

Yet I've not seen single negative response re: high res logging in the many threads / guides optimizing high res hunting.

which then begs the question - what's the difference? If you're against one, why not the other?

What FD need to do is say getting "too" into this game is an exploit and you need to "chill out".

Really who cares how often one goes in and out of game if it affects no one but themselves???

 

[Soopyyy]

What FD need to do is say getting "too" into this game is an exploit and you need to "chill out".

Really who cares how often one goes in and out of game if it affects no one but themselves???

Basically this.
If they're not manipulating the game with 3rd party software or impeding anyone else then who gives a toss?

 

[Mr_Blastman]

High res logging is helping make a stupid mechanic (RNG) work properly. RNG is dumb. If Bounty Hunters have to deal with RNG, then ALL TRADING should be RNG too.

 

[jacozilla]

High res logging is helping make a stupid mechanic (RNG) work properly. RNG is dumb. If Bounty Hunters have to deal with RNG, then ALL TRADING should be RNG too.

Well, as one of the seemingly fewer and fewer pool of freighter traders that still trades in Open, and not retreated to solo, going out on any of my trade routes in Open IS all RNG - i never know how many and what type or quality of players I may meet.

rng for pirate only asking reasonable portion of my cargo
rng for pirate that asls for insane portion so might as well run/fight/die
rng for elite combat wing that kills me
rng for lucky escape from above that still adds so much time my profits/hr are significantly eroded
rng for meeting nobody at all that run

and Ive tried high res hunting a lot as well - you can call it rng, but since the changes made by FD, if you sit and wait, ships will slowly start spawning in. If you kill them, you will over time get the bigger ones. But it takes time - sometimes a lot of time. Hence the loggin tactic.

but it doesnt make time as a factor any different from trading, nor rng since what you call rng is just simply wanting to avoid that time waste

 

[Sysmon]

If it doesn't influence other players, what's the harm? Obviously it does so in the case of pvp, and it can be said to do so as well if using logging to get quickly out of stations. In case of the latter it will influence the traffic in and out of the station.

However, who cares about logging in the case of RES sites? Only if somebody else is in the instance and stalking the person logging, if that is possible. Then it is a special case of pvp logging. Also, if the mechanics of how NPC vessel arrive in the RES is more a question of time than instance type, it seems this type of logging is pointless and just a way for the logger to interrupt (= ruin) their own play experience.

S

 

[Morbad]

If you're against one, why not the other?

I'm against both, obviously.

I think it's completely absurd that one can visit a RES, and not seeing ships they want to bother shooting down, roll the dice again on the same RES in seconds.

The game should retain memory of what's in an RES instance you've spawned and not allow regeneration of that instance for a certain period of time (say, an hour).

As for the trade logging exploit, forcing a full (40 seconds is it?) FSD cool down any time one enters the game would mitigate that quite a bit.

High res logging is helping make a stupid mechanic (RNG) work properly. RNG is dumb. If Bounty Hunters have to deal with RNG, then ALL TRADING should be RNG too.

I don't have any problem with RNG, if it's given logical constraints, and isn't simply allowed to be arbitrarily regenerated.

Open IS all RNG - i never know how many and what type or quality of players I may meet.

No degree of unpredictability implies RNG. There is no random number generator creating CMDRs on the spot or deciding which ones you get placed with.

 

[Fire70]

I'm against both, obviously.

I think it's completely absurd that one can visit a RES, and not seeing ships they want to bother shooting down, roll the dice again on the same RES in seconds.
The game should retain memory of what's in an RES instance you've spawned and not allow regeneration of that instance for a certain period of time (say, an hour).
As for the trade logging exploit, forcing a full (40 seconds is it?) FSD cool down any time one enters the game would mitigate that quite a bit.
I don't have any problem with RNG, if it's given logical constraints, and isn't simply allowed to be arbitrarily regenerated.
No degree of unpredictability implies RNG. There is no random number generator creating CMDRs on the spot or deciding which ones you get placed with.

Not sure why you would think that other than to drive players from the game, see I will be honest with you mate, that game is boring and what you are saying would make it even more boring.

 

[DNYI]

You ask the question of

But what about high-res logging? If you are opposed to trade logging, shouldnt you be opposed to high res logging as well?

A better question would be what do the various type of logging (combat, trading, RES site instancing) affect and from their effects what are the major reasons why people might want them to be banned and are those reasons good enough to ban the practice.

To answer the above question let us look first at effect, then reasons for banning, and finish with if those reasons are good enough too merit a ban.

Note: the following reasons/effects/etc may not be all of the possible reasons/effects/etc but are intended to be a decent starting point

Effects of logging in/out for:

#1 Combat Logging:
A) avoids the consequences of being in battle (usually used to avoid destruction)
B) in PVP, prevents opposing player(s) from collecting rewards (bounties, merits, salvage, etc)
C) in PVP, will cause opposing player(s) to feel cheated (usually out of a kill and all things attached to that kill)
D) may encourage other players to adopt the same tactic when encountering a PVP situation
E) avoids in game mechanics for fleeing from combat
F) various other negative effects on player to player interaction

#2 Trade Logging:
A) bypasses in game mechanics that require time to complete
B) in rare cases may create collision avoidance problems for other players moving in the vicinity of stations and outposts
C) may bypass illegal goods scans for goods being smuggled out of station/outposts

#3 RES site instancing:
A) bypasses in game mechanics that require time to complete
B) may bypass security scans
C) very rarely may create collision avoidance problems for other players (take rarity of same problem for trade logging, then make even more rare because alot of people prefer to be in RES sites where no other player is around)
D) decreases hull integrity decay from wear and tear of entering, traveling in, and exiting supercruise

Reasons for banning logging type:

#1 Combat Logging:
A) has large effect on PVP interactions and other players
B) is used to avoid consequences
C) avoids in game mechanics such as fleeing from combat

#2 Trade Logging:
A) avoids in game mechanics to potentially save time

#3 RES site instancing logging:
A) avoids in game mechanics to save time
B) decreases repair costs from wear and tear cause by the avoided in game mechanics

Do the reasons adequately merit a ban:

#1 Combat Logging:
Due to the large effect on other players, and that this is very similar to using file copying gimmicks used to avoid the consequences of defeat (such as that to get around perma-death in other games), the reasons would seem to justify a ban (especially for multiplayer servers)

#2 Trade Logging:
Probably does not deserve a ban based on listed reasons and the very limited effect on other players

#3 RES site instancing logging:
Probably does not deserve a ban due to very limited effect on other players


To answer the original poster's question of "if you are against one, why not the other?", most likely people view manipulating the random nature elements as not cheating as much as avoiding time sinks.

Hope this helps.

 

[Morbad]

Not sure why you would think that

Pretty simple really. The game should have as much internal consistency as possible.

If this were a persistent game, I'd expect to see a living world, were NPCs weren't just spawned because I was there, and didn't only exist to facilitate player grinding. They would serve as part of a plausible and engrossing backdrop to immerse players in a virtual world.

Obviously, there are concessions that must be made due to the peer-to-peer nature of the game and the transient instancing this requires, but having fixed instances able to be completely regenerated in seconds destroys any sense of consistency or plausibility they could easily have. The instances don't need to be persistent, and could not be with the technical limitations of Elite: Dangerous, but the general nature and demographics could certainly be preserved, and allowed to change only gradually, without overt difficulty. Indeed, the Stellar Forge does this with the overwhelming bulk of systems in the game.

other than to drive players from the game, see I will be honest with you mate, that game is boring and what you are saying would make it even more boring.

I don't find the game boring. Also, the fewer opportunities for abuse of the game mechanisms, and the less the game's universe is crapped up by them, the more meaningful and less boring the game will be for me.

Free handouts and lax enforcement of vague policies against exploitation are not going to help anyone in the long run.

 

[Soopyyy]

Yeah, the game is boring. Sitting around for 10-15mins waiting for a pirate to spawn is not fun. It's not very good game design.

 

[CyberGrim]

what about BB logging??

 

[Daffan]

Isin't it funny how bad you can game the system , and it's probably intended . By the way, it's perfectly "legal" logging is only bad when your in combat.

 

[Morbad]

Sitting around for 10-15mins waiting for a pirate to spawn is not fun.

No one makes you farm AI pirates.

 

[jacozilla]

You ask the question of


A better question would be what do the various type of logging (combat, trading, RES site instancing) affect and from their effects what are the major reasons why people might want them to be banned and are those reasons good enough to ban the practice.

To answer the above question let us look first at effect, then reasons for banning, and finish with if those reasons are good enough too merit a ban.

Note: the following reasons/effects/etc may not be all of the possible reasons/effects/etc but are intended to be a decent starting point

Effects of logging in/out for:

#1 Combat Logging:
A) avoids the consequences of being in battle (usually used to avoid destruction)
B) in PVP, prevents opposing player(s) from collecting rewards (bounties, merits, salvage, etc)
C) in PVP, will cause opposing player(s) to feel cheated (usually out of a kill and all things attached to that kill)
D) may encourage other players to adopt the same tactic when encountering a PVP situation
E) avoids in game mechanics for fleeing from combat
F) various other negative effects on player to player interaction

#2 Trade Logging:
A) bypasses in game mechanics that require time to complete
B) in rare cases may create collision avoidance problems for other players moving in the vicinity of stations and outposts
C) may bypass illegal goods scans for goods being smuggled out of station/outposts

#3 RES site instancing:
A) bypasses in game mechanics that require time to complete
B) may bypass security scans
C) very rarely may create collision avoidance problems for other players (take rarity of same problem for trade logging, then make even more rare because alot of people prefer to be in RES sites where no other player is around)
D) decreases hull integrity decay from wear and tear of entering, traveling in, and exiting supercruise

Reasons for banning logging type:

#1 Combat Logging:
A) has large effect on PVP interactions and other players
B) is used to avoid consequences
C) avoids in game mechanics such as fleeing from combat

#2 Trade Logging:
A) avoids in game mechanics to potentially save time

#3 RES site instancing logging:
A) avoids in game mechanics to save time
B) decreases repair costs from wear and tear cause by the avoided in game mechanics

Do the reasons adequately merit a ban:

#1 Combat Logging:
Due to the large effect on other players, and that this is very similar to using file copying gimmicks used to avoid the consequences of defeat (such as that to get around perma-death in other games), the reasons would seem to justify a ban (especially for multiplayer servers)

#2 Trade Logging:
Probably does not deserve a ban based on listed reasons and the very limited effect on other players

#3 RES site instancing logging:
Probably does not deserve a ban due to very limited effect on other players


To answer the original poster's question of "if you are against one, why not the other?", most likely people view manipulating the random nature elements as not cheating as much as avoiding time sinks.

Hope this helps.

very nice summary. I agree 2 and 3 has low to little impact on other players so not a ban issue. Asked this thread because of recent vocal opposition to trade logging by what seemed to be players with no issue re high res logging

i've been thinking about trade logging but driving a freighter is oddly fun for me so prob wont take the short cut. Getting a type 9 out of dock as fast as possible with no scrapes takes some skill so i enjoy doing it but ymmv on that for others

high res instance resets i concede i dont do at all because i have no financial reason to do so - i'm there for change of pace from trade, pure small change and fun killing even small ships. I realize however that for players that find trade boring and rely solely on combat income, they cant really afford the time to wait out slowly respawning rng ships (especially given combat income is still good deal lower than trade income)

i suppose one could make argument that trade or high res logging does affect others in sense you progress faster, get bigger better ship faster, and go pvp with that ship against players who progressed slower. But that woild seem to be the literal definition of the game - there will always be players who progress faster, invest more hours, ect., so I dont find this a reasonable argument.

 

[Zplintz]

Combat logging (which directly affects other Players that you were in combat with at the time) is a completely different issue to any other kind of logging surely?

 

[jacozilla]

Combat logging (which directly affects other Players that you were in combat with at the time) is a completely different issue to any other kind of logging surely?

Agree. And which is why I had hoped to limit the discussion via my OP stating - "Combat logging has been deemed bannable by FD, so ok - case closed, no rehashing here re: that"

And just discuss the rationale or support (or lack thereof) for trade / high-res logging

Being as devil's advocate as I can, my position thus far is:
a) trade logging - don't do it, but support any player that wants to, but thinks driving my slow freighter (only type that benefits from trade logging to reasonable degree) is actually fun so trade logging defeats that. And if you don't find slow freighters fun, why even be driving one to do trade logging with?

b) high-res logging - don't do it but readily concede I have zero incentive, with game balance current rewarding trade so much, player's whose primary source of income is combat income would find their income potential lowered even more if they waited out the random ships spawning rather than reset the instance to see if they get a "good" one. Hence, don't do it, but support it.