Hot take on Ship Health and TTK

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

I used to enjoy doing CZ in my CM4.

But then FD increased ship health in CZ to ridiculous levels due to how easy people in big ships could take them down making CZ combat in a small ship very frustrating. You can literally spend 10 or more minutes blasting away and still not take down the shields on an enemy.

Combat was at its best before all the HP inflating modules for hull and shield and engineering.

And I agree that was a pretty stupid way to balance things. Typical solution for developers, sadly.

People in fully engineered big ships SHOULD feel overpowered and completely lay waste to CZ's and such. Instead they inflated NPC health and abilities so big ships now just feel "good enough", and guys like you in your CM4 take it in the pants. Did they even consider how that change would impact players like you? Doesn't seem like they did...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Agreed, and I agree with the many that say Engineering should have been sidegrades or at least the power creep not be so excessive.

But CZs are fairly high level gameplay in ED, they are a pretty powerful BGS manipulation tool & good way to find high ranking NPCs, and I think it's understandable that FDev have made CZs hard enough that they cannot be easily done idly by relatively lightweight or multi-role builds - it takes commitment & that includes having appropriate equipment.

But they can still be done & a war effort contributed to by more or less any ship with weapons, just not as effectively. It helps that I like flying a Vette too of course

Yeah, my point being, before all the HP inflation you could go into a CZ in a small ship and do ok and even big ships didn't dominate. The reason they had to buff CZ ships to the point that small ships are not useful is because of the HP and damage output inflation, which really doesn't scale well with small ship because smaller hardpoints suffer the damage reduction against bigger ships. Once you add in HP inflation and resistances things get silly.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

And I agree that was a pretty stupid way to balance things. Typical solution for developers, sadly.

People in fully engineered big ships SHOULD feel overpowered and completely lay waste to CZ's and such. Instead they inflated NPC health and abilities so big ships now just feel "good enough", and guys like you in your CM4 take it in the pants. Did they even consider how that change would impact players like you? Doesn't seem like they did...

Thing is, before the HP inflation and engineering, even big ships had some risk in CZ. If you got caught in the center as a respawn happened it could get very hairy.

And the thing is, they actually fixed the issue with people camping CZ, even effectively AFKing in turret boats, and racking up infinite kills, when they changed how CZ work to be limited engagements (which i think was a good move).

Bullet sponge NPCs though are about as much fun to deal with as bullet sponge PvP combat (i saw your comments in the shield tank cutter thread )

 

[Riverside]

Lucky you. For many years, the Imperial Courier was my combat ship of choice. Till defense inflation meant that only very few quite specialized setups could still kill and even they took way too long to still feel rewarding. So i kind of begrudingly migrated to a medium ship.

Which indeed is one factor why i dislike the defense stacking so much: it effectively eliminated the kind of ships which i found most interesting to fly (small, agile but very vulnerable when you get caught) from combat gameplay.

Swings & roundabouts, it gives players with all the gear a reason to have that gear

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Yeah, my point being, before all the HP inflation you could go into a CZ in a small ship and do ok and even big ships didn't dominate. The reason they had to buff CZ ships to the point that small ships are not useful is because of the HP and damage output inflation, which really doesn't scale well with small ship because smaller hardpoints suffer the damage reduction against bigger ships. Once you add in HP inflation and resistances things get silly.

Well I agree that's why they stated they did it. That doesn't mean it's true in that they HAD to do it that way.

In my opinion they should simply try nerfing NPC health like ~25% across the board. Even in my G5 Corvette, I find myself pounding on something silly like an Elite Krait II for what feels like minutes on end. That's just ridiculous and I agree it makes small/medium ship combat tedious and boring and it shouldn't be.

NPC's don't have feelings. They don't pay FDEV money. Why risk some huge Engineering "balance nerf" that may throw everything we have in limbo, or feel nerfed into oblivion?

 

[B1rdy]

And I agree that was a pretty stupid way to balance things. Typical solution for developers, sadly.

People in fully engineered big ships SHOULD feel overpowered and completely lay waste to CZ's and such. Instead they inflated NPC health and abilities so big ships now just feel "good enough", and guys like you in your CM4 take it in the pants. Did they even consider how that change would impact players like you? Doesn't seem like they did...

Ideally a game should make all of its tools relevant, meaning it should provide encounters for instance for a fully kitted Corvette to be almost mandatory. It sort of is in the game, with REZ, CZ and AX CZ scaling in difficulty, but this is strechted over different areas. Want a difficult, maybe even requiring Wing or MC , bounty hunting area? It sadly does not exist.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

And I agree that was a pretty stupid way to balance things. Typical solution for developers, sadly.

People in fully engineered big ships SHOULD feel overpowered and completely lay waste to CZ's and such. Instead they inflated NPC health and abilities so big ships now just feel "good enough", and guys like you in your CM4 take it in the pants. Did they even consider how that change would impact players like you? Doesn't seem like they did...

As a tangent that’s got nothing to offer the discussion except an unsolicited opinion, the best modern gaming ‘difficulty curve’ I’ve encountered so far is probably the most recent X-Com sequel, the one where the aliens have won and you’re now the underground resistance.

The best way I can describe it is that it actually felt like fighting a war of resistance, in that the early game is brutal and unforgiving, but as the game progresses to the middle section you’re starting to get the hang of it, and your fighters are becoming stronger and more experienced and you’re powering up your arsenal. Then you get to the end-game and you get the boss level baddies that can still be a challenge (some of whom can turn up without warning very early and ruin you ), but your team is now a tightly-knit cadre of veteran warmongers laying waste to the map because you’ve got your abilities and tactics tweaked to perfection. A friend summarised it perfectly, saying that wars shouldn’t get harder the closer you get to winning, and that’s it in a nutshell. It sounds counter-intuitive from a challenge point of view but I definitely thought it worked for the setting.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

NPC's don't have feelings.

NPCism!

MODS!

 

[Vetinari]

People who use Large Shield Tanks say that people who fly versatile Medium ships in the same CZ are whiners and need to git gud?

Nerf everybody's shields coz I cant choose not to put Boosters in?

Seems like a 'you' problem. Try not OPing your ship in the first place, plenty of other people manage and rely on 'skillz' to survive.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

People who use Large Shield Tanks say that people who fly versatile Medium ships in the same CZ are whiners and need to git gud?

Who's saying that here?

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

People who use Large Shield Tanks say that people who fly versatile Medium ships in the same CZ are whiners and need to git gud?

Nerf everybody's shields coz I cant choose not to put Boosters in?

Seems like a 'you' problem. Try not OPing your ship in the first place, plenty of other people manage and rely on 'skillz' to survive.

Even with eight utility slots on my cargo/battleconda flagship I only made room for three boosters (two HD and one RA if I recall), because the rest are all PDT and a single heatsink because dogs die in hot cars. Even as a poorly optimised multirole vanity build she’ll still do a job in a CZ and let me feel like I’m piloting a warship without feeling invincible and cheesy, but that’s my playstyle and I unfortunately can’t force it on anyone, nor would I want to because I’m a unique snowflake and would like to keep it that way.

 

[Vetinari]

Who's saying that here?

The OP and the first response? Did you read the OP or just the title?

Why bother trying to farm the Sirius community goals in a Federal Gunship or Federal assault ship when a Corvette or Cutter simply remains indestructible while the medium ships get torn to shreds repeatedly. Lethality needs to be increased while making larger ships draw more fire so that preference of ship size is given more to players and less on optimizing the grind.

Unfortunately its not in keeping with the 'time served' ethos the game is based on where grind is king. Much of the player base like this model because it helps feel powerful in the game and they can avoid reconciling with their poor skills.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Even with eight utility slots on my cargo/battleconda flagship I only made room for three boosters (two HD and one RA if I recall), because the rest are all PDT and a single heatsink because dogs die in hot cars. Even as a poorly optimised multirole vanity build she’ll still do a job in a CZ and let me feel like I’m piloting a warship without feeling invincible and cheesy, but that’s my playstyle and I unfortunately can’t force it on anyone, nor would I want to because I’m a unique snowflake and would like to keep it that way.

Didn't you say in the other thread your Anaconda is engineered only to grade 3?

Trust me, my G5 Corvette doesn't feel "invincible" at all when I draw aggro on an entire wing of Spec Ops. Argh I hate those guys lol.

But I admittedly I just have bi-weaves right now. Prismatics are on the to-do list

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

Didn't you say in the other thread your Anaconda is engineered only to grade 3?

Trust me, my G5 Corvette doesn't feel "invincible" at all when I draw aggro on an entire wing of Spec Ops. Argh I hate those guys lol.

But I admittedly I just have bi-weaves right now. Prismatics are on the to-do list

Bits and pieces are, it varies between G3 and G5 depending on material supplies and unlocks; FSD is a millimetre off full G5, armour and HRP are G3/G4ish, the large multicannon turrets are G3 short-range with incendiary with the huge one G4 high-cap and corrosive, and the seeker racks are G3 high-cap. The biweave shield is G3 thermal resist because that’s as far as I can go with my current engineer unlocks, and the boosters are mostly G3 but I think I took the resistances augmented to G4. I think that’s all of it ... but then I’ve also probably said that as a mostly Solo PvE player I get by with enough fun at mostly G3 so apart from the FSD taking stuff up to G5 is a luxury I won’t lose sleep over.

I mean, I could still slap 8 boosters on and crank them up to G5 heavy duty if I wanted, but that wouldn’t be as fun as watching the PDT doing their thing and diminish the ‘pocket frigate’ vibe I’ve carefully built up for her

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Bits and pieces are, it varies between G3 and G5 depending on material supplies and unlocks; FSD is a millimetre off full G5, armour and HRP are G3/G4ish, the large multicannon turrets are G3 short-range with incendiary with the huge one G4 high-cap and corrosive, and the seeker racks are G3 high-cap. The biweave shield is G3 thermal resist because that’s as far as I can go with my current engineer unlocks, and the boosters are mostly G3 but I think I took the resistances augmented to G4. I think that’s all of it ... but then I’ve also probably said that as a mostly Solo PvE player I get by with enough fun at mostly G3 so apart from the FSD taking stuff up to G5 is a luxury I won’t lose sleep over.

I mean, I could still slap 8 boosters on and crank them up to G5 heavy duty if I wanted, but that wouldn’t be as fun as watching the PDT doing their thing and diminish the ‘pocket frigate’ vibe I’ve carefully built up for her

Sounds like you got a nice thing going for you that's really working. I get attached to my ships as well. If it wasn't for the horrendous Supercruise turning, I would probably be using my Anaconda today for things too.

I'm all about the pocket frigate vibe lol. Would hate to see the day when these PVP guys get big ships nerfed into oblivion....

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

I'm all about the pocket frigate vibe lol. Would hate to see the day when these PVP guys get big ships nerfed into oblivion....

True dat! The big bois should feel like big bois, otherwise what’s the point in flying a pocket battleship?

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

True dat! The big bois should feel like big bois, otherwise what’s the point in flying a pocket battleship?

Exactly. Even medium ships have huge hardpoints. There's no large-exclusive offensive capabilities in the ships. If stacking defense isn't their bailiwick, not sure what the point of them should be outside of hauling biowaste??