I just got quite a bit of cash from Christmas I've been looking into HOTASes for a while. If any of you have used the Saitek Rhino, Warthog or T.Flight, I'd like to know your thoughts on them, build quality, value per $, ect.
Hardware & Technical HOTAS Roundup
- Thread starter Rafał Gan-Ganowicz
- Start date
Rafał Gan-Ganowicz;6253030 said:
I've got close to 3,000 hours on the x56 Rhino, and I have to say I'm very happy with it. It feels solid, and it's got enough toggles/buttons/dials/doodads to pretty much not have to bind anything to the keyboard. There IS one little...not so much a defect, more like a quirk? that I ran into when I started using an Oculus Rift with it.
It pulls just a hair more power from the USB than it's strictly supposed to, and sometimes there's power dips. The throttle side interprets this as inputs, so you get chaff or heat sinks launching without warning, or going into silent running, etc.
The solution, should this happen to you, is very simple. Most PCs have more than one internal USB controller, so move the throttle to a USB2/3 controller that's otherwise not occupied. Example: I have two USB3 controllers in my PC. One is Intel, ones's ASMedia. Moved the throttle to the ASMedia controller by itself, and all was well. Or you could use a powered USB hub if you have one.
It's apparently a thing that's been happening since the x55 to some people. But some inadvertently had plugged them into separate controllers or powered hubs and didn't see the glitch, so it wasn't picked up on for a while. But google "ghost input x56" and you'll see what I'm referring to.
Other than this quirky but solvable hiccup...rock solid.
I've tried a fair few different setups, and I'd still recommend the X52 Pro.
Some versions are touchy, and on some motherboards - for some people - it'll simply never work right.
For general ease of use, setting up, and utility - I still think it's one of the best sticks for Elite.
Some versions are touchy, and on some motherboards - for some people - it'll simply never work right.
For general ease of use, setting up, and utility - I still think it's one of the best sticks for Elite.
I've used the Warthog and T.Flight and have owned the X-55 (and X-42, and X-36). I also have two complete sets of CH HOTAS + pedals and a T.16000m FCS.
Saitek stuff in general has hugely hit-or-miss quality and generally doesn't last anywhere near as long as either the Thrustmaster or CH gear. The X-56 has tempted me, but I'm still sceptical of it's overall quality.
I don't have extensive experience with the Warthog, but were I only interested in flight sims, I'd probably consider it almost ideal. However, for Elite, having analog control for all six DOF is such huge benefit that I can't really recommend anything that doesn't offer this.
The T.16000m FCS is what I feel is a good entry-level setup. It seems sturdy enough and is generally quite accurate. However, it's hampered by the button placement of the main stick and the position of the analog mini-sick under the index finger rather than the thumb. Still, once you get used to it, it does very well for the money.
Personally, I keep going back to my CH setups as the stuff lasts forever (I'm averaging 4k-5k hours of heavy use before needing any significant maintenance on any of the parts), the software is solid, and the Pro Throttle's analog mini-stick is well placed and extremely useful. Downsides are how light the stick and throttle are, and some inconsistency from sample to sample with the throttles...I've had to exchange each of mine once, immediately after purchase, to get samples that were properly calibrated, hardware wise.
Saitek stuff in general has hugely hit-or-miss quality and generally doesn't last anywhere near as long as either the Thrustmaster or CH gear. The X-56 has tempted me, but I'm still sceptical of it's overall quality.
I don't have extensive experience with the Warthog, but were I only interested in flight sims, I'd probably consider it almost ideal. However, for Elite, having analog control for all six DOF is such huge benefit that I can't really recommend anything that doesn't offer this.
The T.16000m FCS is what I feel is a good entry-level setup. It seems sturdy enough and is generally quite accurate. However, it's hampered by the button placement of the main stick and the position of the analog mini-sick under the index finger rather than the thumb. Still, once you get used to it, it does very well for the money.
Personally, I keep going back to my CH setups as the stuff lasts forever (I'm averaging 4k-5k hours of heavy use before needing any significant maintenance on any of the parts), the software is solid, and the Pro Throttle's analog mini-stick is well placed and extremely useful. Downsides are how light the stick and throttle are, and some inconsistency from sample to sample with the throttles...I've had to exchange each of mine once, immediately after purchase, to get samples that were properly calibrated, hardware wise.
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A bit more info:
I'm tight on desk space and don't have room for a HOTAS and my keyboard. And for compatibility's sake: I'm running a gigabyte AB350N motherboard with Windows 10.
I'm tight on desk space and don't have room for a HOTAS and my keyboard. And for compatibility's sake: I'm running a gigabyte AB350N motherboard with Windows 10.
Can you elaborate on that? I don't know what you mean by DOF or analog control.
Rafał Gan-Ganowicz;6253063 said:
Degrees of Freedom (DOF).
Analog means you can gradually change an input, vs digital which is only on or off (full speed or dead stop.)
When I was shopping for a new HOTAS over 12 months ago I tried both X-52 and T-16000. Both are excellent setups, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.
The clincher for me was the weight of centring spring on the joystick. I felt the centring action on the X-52 was far too weak for me, whereas the T-16000 was ideally centred.
All the rest of the button placement arrangements on both are close to ideal - but neither offered a significant advantage over the other in this regard. I also kinda lke the funky linear throttle of the T-16000, but this is definitely a personal taste thing.
Best idea is to find someplace where you can physically test them out.
All the best
Mark H
The clincher for me was the weight of centring spring on the joystick. I felt the centring action on the X-52 was far too weak for me, whereas the T-16000 was ideally centred.
All the rest of the button placement arrangements on both are close to ideal - but neither offered a significant advantage over the other in this regard. I also kinda lke the funky linear throttle of the T-16000, but this is definitely a personal taste thing.
Best idea is to find someplace where you can physically test them out.
All the best
Mark H
me too, and it's just what I wanted to do the job. Still not got the bindings quite right yet
You also have a possibility here to make an opinion
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/283315-Thrustmaster-T-16000M-FCS-HOTAS-official-thread
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/283315-Thrustmaster-T-16000M-FCS-HOTAS-official-thread
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Rafał Gan-Ganowicz;6253030 said:
I have tried all of the above apart from the T-16000M throttle which wasn't produced when I tried the stick. Like Morbad, I prefer the CH Products stuff, using their Throttle and Fighterstick for Elite (I use their Yoke and Pedals in flight sims).
Your remark about available desk space really works against the Warthog (massive) and the Saitek jobbies - the CH Pro units each require about 7 inches at either side of your keyboard (that's how wide they are) - you can find out how wide the T-16000M FCS units are no doubt.
There is always the T-FLIGHT HOTAS-X which is the cheapest HOTAS, can be joined-together or split - I have one on my second PC and it works just fine (had it for nearly 3 years), in fact I bought a spare in a sale just to have it "in case".
P.S. ChPro units are expensive, you can buy a complete T-16000M system for the price of a single CHPro unit I believe.
Deleted member 110222
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You can indeed. In my humble opinion, the t16000m FCS HOT AS is the best value right now. Not necessarily the best. But you seem to get a lot for your mo.
If my X52 ever dies, Maker forbid, I will replace it with said stick.
I would never in my life buy another Saitek/Madcatz/now-Logitech X-series stick again. I was kinda lucky with my X-52 Pro in that it didn't tweak out completely, but it still was not great mechanically, electronically, and on the software side. When you see a thread about people having issues with their HOTAS, 99% it'll be one of those sticks, with ever-same issues over what, a decade of different products?, and Logitech have not been great with their sticks in the past either. Even the very cheap Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas[sic] X beat them in terms of quality.
I've today been inside my CH Pro Throttle (stuck a ferrite on the USB lead close to the controller board because it's so damn sensitive to EMI, hopefully I can now get up from my chair without disconnecting it), and I'm so totally into the mechanical build of both pedals and throttle compared to some other devices I cracked open in the past.
I would by now mount any HOTAS setup on some kind of clamp in front of the table (for an expensive but IMAO not overpriced solution see MonsterTech, alternatives and DIY are available). It's such an advantage in ergonomics and available desk space
I've today been inside my CH Pro Throttle (stuck a ferrite on the USB lead close to the controller board because it's so damn sensitive to EMI, hopefully I can now get up from my chair without disconnecting it), and I'm so totally into the mechanical build of both pedals and throttle compared to some other devices I cracked open in the past.
Not sure if this is still relevant, but I'm in a mood to rage against the T.16000M.
The potentiometer used for the joystick twist will fail. It's happened to my first one and my replacement within 3 months of use. The last couple pages of the dedicated T.16000M thread is rife with the issue.
The potentiometer used for the joystick twist will fail. It's happened to my first one and my replacement within 3 months of use. The last couple pages of the dedicated T.16000M thread is rife with the issue.
Once you use Hall Effect controls rather than potentiometers you'll never want anything else.
The Warthog setup is the benchmark, but if you have limited space and don't plan an appropriate installation design, it may not be your best option. They are made of mostly metal and are very heavy, not the type of things you just drop anywhere - especially not on your foot.
If I couldn't find a way to setup a Warthog, I'd go with CH
The Warthog setup is the benchmark, but if you have limited space and don't plan an appropriate installation design, it may not be your best option. They are made of mostly metal and are very heavy, not the type of things you just drop anywhere - especially not on your foot.
If I couldn't find a way to setup a Warthog, I'd go with CH
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Good potentiometers are quite precise, last a long time and are replaceable as jellybean parts; CH seems to be using those. (And there's hall sensors that come in potentiometer format and pinout if you're feeling frisky
)I've had an X55 for the past 2+ years, and have had no issues with it, though it seems that that's very much the exception. It has a horrible QA track record. Ergonomically I love the setup. Plenty of controls to bind, and the default X55 bindings in Elite are darn near perfect. I'm only replacing it with a VKB setup because I'm pretty sure the throttle is a ticking time bomb, it's going to die sooner or later. Supposedly Logitech fixed a lot of the QC issues in the X56, as long as you get a new Logitech setup and not an old Saitek stock that was just rebranded.
Don't have any experience with the T-16000m FCS, but reading around the general consensus is that it's pretty much the best setup in its price range.
This may have been the case before but there are some other options now... in particular, people have started receiving their MCG+Gunfighter sticks from VKB, and (at least according to one review) the Warthog doesn't compare favorably. It's definitely more expensive, though.
Video first look here:
[video=youtube;PXmpdNP3ntM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXmpdNP3ntM[/video]
Don't have any experience with the T-16000m FCS, but reading around the general consensus is that it's pretty much the best setup in its price range.
This may have been the case before but there are some other options now... in particular, people have started receiving their MCG+Gunfighter sticks from VKB, and (at least according to one review) the Warthog doesn't compare favorably. It's definitely more expensive, though.
Video first look here:
[video=youtube;PXmpdNP3ntM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXmpdNP3ntM[/video]