How about grudge, vendetta and CMDR hunt?

Hi CMDRs,

the galaxy is in a sorry state. Crime is all over the place and bothering good pilots but the criminals are not getting anything either. I thought this problem could be solved with "grudge"!

Grudge. So when somebody shoots you, you get to hold grudge against him. This grudge could be worth the price of your rebuy. The ship computer can keep tab of all the grudges. The grudges could be sorted too depending on how much grudge you hold towards different CMDRs. If the same CMDR shot you down again, the grudge towards him would of course add up! This is important so you know who to go after first.

The hunt. Its important to get even because it feels good. Everybody knows that. When you have got your ship back from the insurance, the sneaky CMDR responsible could be anywhere already. But there's cameras everywhere too. The galactic information agencies could provide gossip about the whereabouts of the commanders who you hold grudge against. You can then hunt them down following the clues! It'll be fun to trace them to their space lairs, carriers or whatever dismal ruin they make their garage.

Vendetta. When you have found the CMDR that wronged you, you can try to destroy the same amount of his stuffs to get the grudge to zero. You know how its done CMDR: by opening fire and shooting him down really good. If he shot down your Anaconda first, better find him in an Anaconda too. It'd be silly if grudge went away by destroying his Sidewinder. So that just wont do. When the balance is kind of back to zero the Pilot's Federation can recognize the vendetta as finished and give some fancy reward.

No escape. Some CMDRs might be really clever and go take a nap and try to avoid the vendetta that way. Of course there is no escape in the galaxy since everybody must be somewhere all the time. If a commander goes to sleep, then his ship's computer should pilot the ship in his place. The computer would be just as clever as the CMDR (except that the computer doesn't need sleep or try the nap trick)! When the CMDR finally wakes up, he can be told how much he lost whlie sleeping. Or maybe he kept his assets but gathered more grudge if the computer did really well meanwhile.

Mercy! Since we're all civilized here, the offending CMDR could offer to pay back the grudge in credits so it doesn't need to come to violence or desperation. Or he could be asked to pay compensations. The two CMDRs could negotiate over a grudge solution system thingy how many credits should be moved from one jumpsuit pocket to another for the grudge to be settled. The rebuy price would be a nice starting point. Settled grudges shouldn't be given fancy rewards though since its too easy.

Engineers and grudge. Some engineers could turn out to be very sympathetic towards the underdog. A sympathetical engineer would only accept to work for you if you held a grudge towards at least 10 different CMDRs during the previous month. Then there could be these engineers that only respect powerful and dangerous CMDRs. They would only work for you if at least 10 different CMDRs held a grudge towards you during the previous month.

Grudging galactic powers. Since its really annoying that members of powers shoot CMDRs of other powers, part of the grudge would always be towards the power, if the CMDR belonged to one! Like, if murderous CMDR Gankmann's wing from Archon's Punks dares to shoot me to pieces, I will hold a grudge to everybody in his wing but to Archon as well. It makes so much sense since clearly he's not keeping his puppies in order. Also Arissa will be really upset at Archon. If this upsetness of a power gets big enough, other CMDRs may be allowed join The Hunt and be provided gossip by the galactic information agencies too to know where to look for justice. Maybe the powers eventually go to war to settle the score if nothing else pacifies them.

Stations. Its silly that stations and outposts can harbor dangerous criminals that others are righteously grudging towards. The stations should promptly send the offending CMDR to face a duel outside the salon erm station, or the station itself would gather some grudge by granting grudge targets "safe space". If the station had collected enough grudge, the offended power could consider raiding the station for pay back. Or the attacking faction could even take the station over, send the staff to prison camps, and sell its parts on the microwave cooling hose market. That'd teach them! The stations would immediately become more co-operative I think if their sheltering habits turned out risky!

Murder hobo factions. Since galaxy is really big and there's all kinds, it'd make sense some factions would become murder hobo factions. These factions would have lots of missions to massacre other CMDRs and give gorgeous rewards when enough scraps have been collected. Of course this would create some grudge too. It shouldn't be a big deal since if there's a lot of destruction it will just increase the Gross Galactic Production and weapons manufacturer profit too. Or so I heard from a friend who's in the Crom economics academy.

You might ask where would all the credits for the new galactic information offices and computer upgrades come from? Its not difficult. Lets scrap the silly ATR system altogether. It is very expensive to maintain and not much fun either. That'll free a lot of credits.

Phew, this is a lot of suggestions! What do you think CMDRs?

Bests,

CMDR C. FLOSS
Imperial Princess
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
No escape. Some CMDRs might be really clever and go take a nap and try to avoid the vendetta that way. Of course there is no escape in the galaxy since everybody must be somewhere all the time. If a commander goes to sleep, then his ship's computer should pilot the ship in his place. The computer would be just as clever as the CMDR (except that the computer doesn't need sleep or try the nap trick)! When the CMDR finally wakes up, he can be told how much he lost whlie sleeping. Or maybe he kept his assets but gathered more grudge if the computer did really well meanwhile.
.... or they may just play in a Private Group or Solo - there's no requirement for any player to play in Open if they don't want to. Then there's the fact that our ships are not kept in-game when we log out - and there are no servers for that purpose.
 
Hi CMDRs, I guess I wasn't clear there so I'll try to write the same thing in crazytalk.

Somewhere else there's 600 textos about stuff like "griefers" and if "pvp should be made opt-in or not" and the CMDRs go around in some endless circle wrangling on "yes" and "no" and "boohoo". How is any of those going to bring more fun and action into the galaxy? Think bigger. Think features. Now here CMDR C. FLOSS comes with some actual ideas that could be done!

1) Add mechanics to allow CMDRs to effectively work as law enforcement (and to get even) - via the Hunt. Scrap the ATR and let CMDRs retribute by the new mechanisms.
2) Reward both law enforcement activities and retaliations by CMDRs as well as doing crimes against CMDRs (this way CMDRs and their activities become new content)
3) Allow crimes against CMDRs to be only settled with the specific commander in question or at most through his/her power. The settlement should be "eye for eye" (a'la Hammurabi; 2 Sidewinders do not an Anaconda make) or "by credit negotiation". This is to increase CMDR-CMDR interactions.
4) Prevent sidestepping the system by such tricks as switching into "Solo" or logging off. An AI should take the CMDRs place in his absence.
5) Get the stations and powerplay pulled in to add immersion

I hope this helps to clear it up! You can find these ideas between the lines in my original letter. You can think of "grudge" as a new type of "bounty" that some CMDR can have towards another. The grudge would be initially caused by ship destruction and its amount could depend on the value of the destroyed ship.

Bests,

CMDR C. FLOSS
Imperial Princess
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
The average player density per system is considerably lower than one.

The game requires to "work" when no players are encountered, i.e. in Solo or in areas of the galaxy where there are no other players.

ATR is not just there for player/player crime.

Each player's choice as to who to play among is the first decision they make each game session - no-one else makes that choice for them.

As mentioned earlier, servers are not provided to keep a player's ship in space at all times. Frontier's stance on leaving the game is that any player can choose to do so at any time - even if subject to the 15-second "in-danger" delay - whether there are other players in the instance, or not.

What constitutes "fun" for one player may not be considered by other player(s) to be "fun".
 
It would be much better if there was something like an "notoriety list" similar to your friendlist.
From a certain point of notoriety (let's make it 5) every notorious active CMDR in your mode can be seen on your galmap.
Or just make it selectable from the local bounties menu ("track CMDR").
I guess that would reduce wanton ganking by at least 50%.
The pro's would still gank, and it would be hilarious if you'd combine that with removing the cap.
But the run off the shelf newbie ganker would rather quickly be taken care of I think.
 
It would be much better if there was something like an "notoriety list" similar to your friendlist.
From a certain point of notoriety (let's make it 5) every notorious active CMDR in your mode can be seen on your galmap.
Or just make it selectable from the local bounties menu ("track CMDR").
I guess that would reduce wanton ganking by at least 50%.
The pro's would still gank, and it would be hilarious if you'd combine that with removing the cap.
But the run off the shelf newbie ganker would rather quickly be taken care of I think.

This would have to be linked to being scanned (the perp being scanned and thus make them visible to everyone for a few hours before fading / repeating if scanned again). This way aggressive players have a way to avoid it if they are good, and punishes sloppy work.
 
The average player density per system is considerably lower than one.

The game requires to "work" when no players are encountered, i.e. in Solo or in areas of the galaxy where there are no other players.

ATR is not just there for player/player crime.

Each player's choice as to who to play among is the first decision they make each game session - no-one else makes that choice for them.

As mentioned earlier, servers are not provided to keep a player's ship in space at all times. Frontier's stance on leaving the game is that any player can choose to do so at any time - even if subject to the 15-second "in-danger" delay - whether there are other players in the instance, or not.

What constitutes "fun" for one player may not be considered by other player(s) to be "fun".

Hi CMDR Maynard, the current state of things doesn't mean that thats the best possible state of things that could be! I'm not saying that your AI could pilot your ship right now, but maybe it could, someday, if some effort was put into it! And if there are very few CMDRs in the system, why not make some kind of little computer that tells in which system the other commanders are, so you can go there to have more merry? Or you can use it to avoid lots of CMDRs altogether if you're more the lonesome type.

Good CMDRs Rubbernuke and Bigmaec are playing along and suggesting nice ideas and don't take the galaxy as the best possible galaxy! Thats wonderful. I think I saw CMDR Maynard post elsewhere about being social with other CMDRs, but being something of a socialite myself I kind of wonder whatever that could be, since our ship computers and station bureaucracies and Pilots Federation really don't do much to promote being social together and why'd you be social if there's nothing to be had from it. The Hunt and grudge thing I was thinking about would add this kind of socializing, as it'd encourage commanders to do things like shoot and chase each other, which is way more social than mining somewhere in gloom.

Lets think what social things you can do together at the moment with the other commanders!
  • You can sit in your ship in the shipyard and chat with 1-2 commanders that happen to be on the station about evil gankers or how much domestic appliances cost right now.
  • You can go land on a planet with somebody and see who gets the minerals in that rock. You can also do the same with the guardian ruins.
  • You can go hunt a criminal together in a wing mission. Though if you bring your Corvette you might take two wing missions at the same time and do it all alone.
  • You can go annoy a thargoid. Since your friend is there the thargoid misbehaves and is more difficult to hit.
  • You can go mine void opals together. If you get lucky it ends up in a fight about who gets the opals. 💜
  • You can trade some goods with another CMDR. Your friend has some painite in his hold and you have some of those opals. You drop a few and he drops a few and then you try to scoop each others droppings. Or maybe even use collectors. Fun fun!
  • You can together take a lot of pamphlets to another system and chat while in supercruise. Aisling will be so happy that you spread the good word.
  • You can fly a ship-launched fighter for your friend. This actually makes some sense since at least the friend won't lose a co-pilot if his ship blows up!

I hope thats not the best of the possible galaxies there ever could be! If you're clever you can think of every single thing there how it could be deeper and more rewarding. So you get something from doing it that way with somebody else. Like a paintjob, bigger turret, or a nugget of a story, or your name and picture on some fancy galactic who's-who of scoundrels and heroes.

Bests,
CMDR C. FLOSS
Imperial Princess
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Hi CMDR Maynard, the current state of things doesn't mean that thats the best possible state of things that could be! I'm not saying that your AI could pilot your ship right now, but maybe it could, someday, if some effort was put into it! And if there are very few CMDRs in the system, why not make some kind of little computer that tells in which system the other commanders are, so you can go there to have more merry? Or you can use it to avoid lots of CMDRs altogether if you're more the lonesome type.
Returning to the game to find that ones ship had been destroyed in ones absence would not be "the best possible state of things". YMMV.

A tracking device would facilitate destruction of CMDRs not playing at that time.

The friends list informs players where their friends are already.
 
People will still hide in solo.

Admit it. The game is fundamentally flawed in this respect. And FDev does not seem to care about that. Solo-open, permanently punishing people via the block button, etc.

The fact that people continually argue about this is proof of the flawed design.
 
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People will still hide in solo.

Admit it. The game is fundamentally flawed in this respect. And FDev does not seem to care about that. Solo-open, permanently punishing people via the block button, etc.

The fact that people continually argue about this is proof of the flawed design.
No, people will still continue to play in solo because that is their wish. Just like people will continue to act like idiots in Open and people will quite happily play in a PG if it suits their needs. As for your comment "permanently punishing people via the block button" the only punishment is self inflicted. The game designers allow a player to block another player that is annoying them, acting in an anti-social manner, or just being a pile of stinking biowaste. Maybe the fault is the player who is being blocked by everyone they encounter, perhaps they should re-evaluate their playing style.

Now for your last sentence - arguing here is no proof of flawed designed. We are talking about a community who argue every aspect of the game, hell even when they receive free in game currency they still argue about it. If FD gave everyone a real live bar of solid gold, you can bet the forums would be full of those arguing about it within hours.

It is just what we do here, we argue the mundane and irrelevant :D
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
People will still hide in solo.

Admit it. The game is fundamentally flawed in this respect. And FDev does not seem to care about that. Solo-open, permanently punishing people via the block button, etc.

The fact that people continually argue about this is proof of the flawed design.
Playing in a game mode other than Open is not, in fact, hiding. It's using the options that have been included in the game design for over seven years to determine how many players one may meet in each and every game session.

Whether the game is flawed, or not, rather depends on ones opinion. As I backed a game with completely optional PvP, and don't enjoy PvP, it works well for me. That some backed or bought the game expecting to be able to force others to engage in that optional play-style is no-one's fault but their own.

The seemingly continuous arguments arise simply because Frontier have not chosen to give in to the demands of those players who want to change the game to suit their preference.
 
I like the idea. It puts PvP on a higher level, a level with higher meaning. It would put some depth (yeah, I used the word) into the PvP game part.

Have you already mentioned to sell your grudge? Get some percent of the complete payback from a professional mercenary. The mercenary buys your grudge (like buying bonds) and goes for the hunt and have some benefit (and PvP fun). It could be realized through the trader and broker mechanics.

And the best about this, it is so much less to code for FDev than e.g. Legs or Atmospheric Landing. It's just managing some numbers and of course CMDR names.

"Hiding" in solo is propably not that problem, because it's all about those who like PvP (more or less). I don't think we need the AI thing, where CMDRs who aren't playing are still "available" for the vendetta. If you don't find the "hiding" one, just give up and bring the grudge to the broker, there will be others to hunt.
 
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MEGA

Banned
In most games negative consequences for "bad" behavior are temporary and decay with time. But in ED the devs decided it was ok to introduce permanent punishment in the form of "blocking" -- forever removed from someone's instance (unless they decide to remove the block which I wager almost never happens).

I don't approve of FDev's decision to allow that (permanently blocking communications from a bad actor is one thing, but permanent removal from instancing? Not so much.). So I cannot get behind any idea that adds more punitive punishment for players who play the game as designed and how they want just because someone else does not like how they choose to play their game.
 
Here is a little story! Imagine CMDR Heinrich Gankmann (sorry CMDR if you truly exist) who hides near Harma or Wyrd or deep space. Once in forever he comes to visit a community event. There, he seeks a victim. CMDR Gankmann does not really care who the victim is, since he has his own cryptic reasons. Out of all the random people, he runs into CMDR LilStrawberry. LilStrawberry is hauling water and basic medicines for the poor, doing her best to help with her pitiful Hauler. She is promptly interdicted and shot to pieces by CMDR Gankmann's superengineered FDL firepower. LilStrawberries' expensive cargo is left to expire in space. CMDR GANKMANN cares little of such material things. The poor go on sick and thirsty. Perhaps they expire like the cargo.

LilStrawberry sits at the insurance office with a piece of bandage across her nose, a rebuy bill in her hands. She wonders what she should do with her life.

She has seen the galaxy a bit, and knows she will likely never see CMDR Gankmann again. When she at last is in a position to seek justice, CMDR Gankmann will be long gone, either to sleep, or vanished to deep space without a trace.

Should LilStrawberry seek peace in taking it out on the others, the innocent? Perhaps also CMDR Gankmann was shot down in his youth and now forever seeks retribution that he can never find, until, at last, he finds it in shooting down LilStrawberry, disappearing afterwards for ever. There is one thing CMDR Gankmann leaves. His legacy, a cycle of pain.

Should LilStrawberry despair and declare to all his friends and relatives never to come to this dismal galaxy, where criminals operate above the law, where criminals can freely hide in sleep or deep space or even behind a Pilot's Federation restraining order that some call 'block'?

Should LilStrawberry just accept that such is life, rebuy her cargo, and move on, accept she can never get compensated for the wrong she faced, that she can never get even?


Bests,
CMDR C. FLOSS
Imperial Princess
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Should LilStrawberry just accept that such is life, rebuy her cargo, and move on, accept she can never get compensated for the wrong she faced, that she can never get even?
If the affected CMDR was so inclined they could block the miscreant to ensure that they never crossed paths again....

.... and recouping credit losses is trivial.
 
If LilStrawberry was so inclined, she could come visit the dark corners of Colonia and for the cost of helping out some horribly misunderstood anarchists, maybe learn some of the tactics and ship builds for stopping repeat explosions of her ships.

The danger of course is that LilStrawberry could have too much fun up here...
 
Here is a little story! Imagine CMDR Heinrich Gankmann (sorry CMDR if you truly exist) who hides near Harma or Wyrd or deep space. Once in forever he comes to visit a community event. There, he seeks a victim. CMDR Gankmann does not really care who the victim is, since he has his own cryptic reasons. Out of all the random people, he runs into CMDR LilStrawberry. LilStrawberry is hauling water and basic medicines for the poor, doing her best to help with her pitiful Hauler. She is promptly interdicted and shot to pieces by CMDR Gankmann's superengineered FDL firepower. LilStrawberries' expensive cargo is left to expire in space. CMDR GANKMANN cares little of such material things. The poor go on sick and thirsty. Perhaps they expire like the cargo.

LilStrawberry sits at the insurance office with a piece of bandage across her nose, a rebuy bill in her hands. She wonders what she should do with her life.

She has seen the galaxy a bit, and knows she will likely never see CMDR Gankmann again. When she at last is in a position to seek justice, CMDR Gankmann will be long gone, either to sleep, or vanished to deep space without a trace.

Should LilStrawberry seek peace in taking it out on the others, the innocent? Perhaps also CMDR Gankmann was shot down in his youth and now forever seeks retribution that he can never find, until, at last, he finds it in shooting down LilStrawberry, disappearing afterwards for ever. There is one thing CMDR Gankmann leaves. His legacy, a cycle of pain.

Should LilStrawberry despair and declare to all his friends and relatives never to come to this dismal galaxy, where criminals operate above the law, where criminals can freely hide in sleep or deep space or even behind a Pilot's Federation restraining order that some call 'block'?

Should LilStrawberry just accept that such is life, rebuy her cargo, and move on, accept she can never get compensated for the wrong she faced, that she can never get even?


Bests,
CMDR C. FLOSS
Imperial Princess

So what chance do you expect LilStrawberriesto have to compete with that fully engineered FDL? OR are this just another git gud suggestion in disguise? because that is what LilStrawberries have todo to get even... and then there is the issue with compensation.... how would LilStrawberries get compensated for her loss by destroying the other player?



And even the flawed part about there would be "hiding" in other game modes would mean that much, as this is something that is very unlikely to ever be implemented, as even it miracoulously got impplemented would still requires, in most cases, LilStrawberries to do the git gud part anyway... and then there is the exist to menu APPROVED gameplay option, that FDev repeatedly have said is not going away....


And that fairy tale of hurting other innocent other players just because you where hurt in the past is a very weak strawman argument justifying doing the same to others...
 
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