How do you guys pull off FA-OFF flight?

how did FA-OFF gods git so gud that its like they are in FA-ON?

Practice. Much practice. It's like anything; enough repetition and if you have aptitude for learning, you adapt. I fly flight assist off and mostly don't hit things, how the heck the finest of us fly fa-off, like it's no big deal is a constant source of amazement. And a good motivator to be less bad at it. :)

FA-ON teaches overcorrection habits that are hard to shake; that and getting your brain to be cognisant of the fact that your vector and your angle of attack, are typically almost never the same. I will be learning for a very long time. But I don't miss having the ship feel likes it's flying in a tub of jello. Every time it's on now, the ship feels like a straight jacket. I had no idea how bad it was until I swapped over.
 
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I'm with a T-Flight X and the mechanical deadzone is indeed a pain for complete FA Off. I've learned to make very tiny movements and always correcting so I've grown used to it but I find it much more efficient to use a combination of both FA off and on at optimal times.

Excuse me but there is no mechanical deadzone in T-flight Hotas-X, I have it and it is a driver issue that can be solved easily.
I become half good at FA-Off since Ive put ThrottleIncrement Value="0.10000000" into binds file.

Are You using T-flight Stick X? You should be also able to fix it with S-curves.
 
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For full newtonian flight you wouldn't have any dampening at all. All movement would be controlled by thruster/throttle input.

As for the need of pinpoint accuracy etc I know people who use all different methods of FA-off control. This is purely a pilot skill and determination as to how good you get in FA-off combat.

Like I have said many times your control method do NOT dictate your ability to fly or fight with FA-off. Your determination to learn does. A good FA-off pilot with HOTAS will still kick the of an ordinary pilot using KB+M and vice versa.

Ultimately the question about FA-off piloting is down to what you want out of it. Advantage in combat? Use it selectively and learn when to switch etc. Agility for manoeuvring? Grab the stock sidey and go practice. Living the true lifestyle? Come join us on the discord and forget about whether or not you are gud enough and just enjoy being a space pilot! :D

You're confused between spaceflight and flight assist - all motion is "fully Newtonian", on land, sea or air, as it is in space. All it means is that a body's motion remains constant until a force is applied, at which point it either accelerates or decelerates.

"Flight assist", in the context of ED, means that some or all of these forces are applied automatically to stabilise your ship's rotation.

If ED was "fully Newtonian" then your ship would allow you, as pilot, to control your own thrusters, regardless of your speed relative to anything else, and regardless of whether flight assist was on or off.

Unless of course you'd programmed your flight assist to limit your speed - which would be perfectly acceptable, if that's what you wanted to do.

In ED however, flight assist is always enabled - actively damping your speed whether you like it or not. You cannot switch it off. Instead, you have to spend silly money buying bigger engines and thrusters, and then the flight assist lets you accelerate to a very slightly higher speed, before cutting your engines again.

In ED, "FA-off", as explained by previous posters, merely disables angular damping. Linear damping remains stuck on.

In previous Elites, it was the other way around - FA-off disabled linear damping, but angular damping was still applied. This was a far superior implementation. Just as a matter of basic logic, let alone fun flight. But then previous Elites were fully Newtonian - they had no space speed limits. ED is non-Newtonian because it uses network bandwidth as a function of in-game velocity; the faster you go, the higher the network load. They could've done it the other way around, using relative rather than absolute velocities, which would've reduced the network load as a function of velocity, but for whatever reason didn't, so now we're stuck with wobbly submarines and space speed limits.

Whichever way you look at it, ED's flight model and flight assist modes are just incredibly dumb and implausible. No spaceship systems would ever be designed this way. Disabling angular damping is the last thing any sane pilot would want or need to do. Upgrading engines and thrusters when the only thing limiting your speed is the "flight assist" system is just utterly hatstand.

If ED had full Newtonian flight, like the previous games, flight assist could be awesome, totally plausible and consistent...

...think about it - logically, you'd be able to adjust curves for all 3 axes and all 3 planes. Switch between mode presets. Set your flight assist to chart a course between two locations, straight-line or curved, while maintaining full manual control of rotational and linear thrusters - so you could dogfight freely, while your ship continued to follow its pre-set course, regardless of which direction you were pointing at any given moment, by coordinating all of its various thrusters to maintain that course, while still allowing you, as pilot, to make any manual thrusts you want... How cool would THAT be? But no, instead all we get is angular damping on/off, and blinkin' space speed limits.

Your confusion between "Newtonain" and "flight assist" exemplifies the dumbing-down FD have inflicted on their low-expectations user base. You think they're mutually-exclusive opposites! I expect most ED players suffer the same delusions. It's a travesty of what Elite used to be about, and what ED could've, & should've, achieved...
 
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You're confused between spaceflight and flight assist - all motion is "fully Newtonian", on land, sea or air, as it is in space. All it means is that a body's motion remains constant until a force is applied, at which point it either accelerates or decelerates.

"Flight assist", in the context of ED, means that some or all of these forces are applied automatically to stabilise your ship's rotation.

If ED was "fully Newtonian" then your ship would allow you, as pilot, to control your own thrusters, regardless of your speed relative to anything else, and regardless of whether flight assist was on or off.

Unless of course you'd programmed your flight assist to limit your speed - which would be perfectly acceptable, if that's what you wanted to do.

In ED however, flight assist is always enabled - actively damping your speed whether you like it or not. You cannot switch it off. Instead, you have to spend silly money buying bigger engines and thrusters, and then the flight assist lets you accelerate to a very slightly higher speed, before cutting your engines again.

In ED, "FA-off", as explained by previous posters, merely disables angular damping. Linear damping remains stuck on.

In previous Elites, it was the other way around - FA-off disabled linear damping, but angular damping was still applied. This was a far superior implementation. Just as a matter of basic logic, let alone fun flight. But then previous Elites were fully Newtonian - they had no space speed limits. ED is non-Newtonian because it uses network bandwidth as a function of in-game velocity; the faster you go, the higher the network load. They could've done it the other way around, using relative rather than absolute velocities, which would've reduced the network load as a function of velocity, but for whatever reason didn't, so now we're stuck with wobbly submarines and space speed limits.

Whichever way you look at it, ED's flight model and flight assist modes are just incredibly dumb and implausible. No spaceship systems would ever be designed this way. Disabling angular damping is the last thing any sane pilot would want or need to do. Upgrading engines and thrusters when the only thing limiting your speed is the "flight assist" system is just utterly hatstand.

If ED had full Newtonian flight, like the previous games, flight assist could be awesome, totally plausible and consistent...

...think about it - logically, you'd be able to adjust curves for all 3 axes and all 3 planes. Switch between mode presets. Set your flight assist to chart a course between two locations, straight-line or curved, while maintaining full manual control of rotational and linear thrusters - so you could dogfight freely, while your ship continued to follow its pre-set course, regardless of which direction you were pointing at any given moment, by coordinating all of its various thrusters to maintain that course, while still allowing you, as pilot, to make any manual thrusts you want... How cool would THAT be? But no, instead all we get is angular damping on/off, and blinkin' space speed limits.

Your confusion between "Newtonain" and "flight assist" exemplifies the dumbing-down FD have inflicted on their low-expectations user base. You think they're mutually-exclusive opposites! I expect most ED players suffer the same delusions. It's a travesty of what Elite used to be about, and what ED could've, & should've, achieved...

With all that said, how do you fly and what setup do you use?
 

ryan_m

Banned
For full newtonian flight you wouldn't have any dampening at all. All movement would be controlled by thruster/throttle input.

As for the need of pinpoint accuracy etc I know people who use all different methods of FA-off control. This is purely a pilot skill and determination as to how good you get in FA-off combat.

Like I have said many times your control method do NOT dictate your ability to fly or fight with FA-off. Your determination to learn does. A good FA-off pilot with HOTAS will still kick the of an ordinary pilot using KB+M and vice versa.

Ultimately the question about FA-off piloting is down to what you want out of it. Advantage in combat? Use it selectively and learn when to switch etc. Agility for manoeuvring? Grab the stock sidey and go practice. Living the true lifestyle? Come join us on the discord and forget about whether or not you are gud enough and just enjoy being a space pilot! :D

Most PvP pilots would agree that, assuming equal skill levels, KBM pilot wins the engagement because a mouse is so much more accurate for aiming.
 
Practice.

What I'd like is a way for the throttle to change to +/- mode when I go to fa-off and swap back when I go fa-on.
 
You're confused between spaceflight and flight assist - all motion is "fully Newtonian", on land, sea or air, as it is in space. All it means is that a body's motion remains constant until a force is applied, at which point it either accelerates or decelerates.

A lot of interesting stuff

:)

I'm not confused and understand the whole newtonian motion very well but what you said in interesting. ED always has some form of assist even when you 'switch it off' which TBH I can see being a standard in the future for space flight, heck they are moving towards limiting speed etc on cars are we speak so it's not outside the realms of possibility that space ship 'standard' would include some form of vector/speed limits and have auto dampening of it. And lets face it the reason it is like that is for game play reasons nothing more nothing less.

TBH if you went full true newtonian flight then I believe it would put off the majority of players as they want to play a game rather than a space fluid simulator. I myself would love it but I'm a nutter.
 
Most PvP pilots would agree that, assuming equal skill levels, KBM pilot wins the engagement because a mouse is so much more accurate for aiming.

Yeah I would probably say so as well. But unless you find yourself in the pvp circles that constantly engage with other pvp'ers I would say that you will find such a large range of skills that the control method is not the deciding factor for everyday pvp encounters.
 
Most PvP pilots would agree that, assuming equal skill levels, KBM pilot wins the engagement because a mouse is so much more accurate for aiming.

This right here is why I've been sticking with the gamepad & mouse; aiming. FA Off is already pretty tough to get the hang of, but when you factor in a couple of SDC pilot's raining hell down around your ears at a CG, FA Off flying gets pretty next level. Speaking of which, many/most SDC pilots are pretty decent in this flight method themselves, I've heard. Might just be a rumor, though.
 
I've always switched dynamically between FA on and off depending on the situation and it has served me well. Don't let anyone tell you that if you're playing the game wrong if you use FA.
 
In ED however, flight assist is always enabled - actively damping your speed whether you like it or not. You cannot switch it off. Instead, you have to spend silly money buying bigger engines and thrusters, and then the flight assist lets you accelerate to a very slightly higher speed, before cutting your engines again.

In ED, "FA-off", as explained by previous posters, merely disables angular damping. Linear damping remains stuck on.

In previous Elites, it was the other way around - FA-off disabled linear damping, but angular damping was still applied. This was a far superior implementation. Just as a matter of basic logic, let alone fun flight. But then previous Elites were fully Newtonian - they had no space speed limits. ED is non-Newtonian because it uses network bandwidth as a function of in-game velocity; the faster you go, the higher the network load. They could've done it the other way around, using relative rather than absolute velocities, which would've reduced the network load as a function of velocity, but for whatever reason didn't, so now we're stuck with wobbly submarines and space speed limits.

Whichever way you look at it, ED's flight model and flight assist modes are just incredibly dumb and implausible. No spaceship systems would ever be designed this way. Disabling angular damping is the last thing any sane pilot would want or need to do. Upgrading engines and thrusters when the only thing limiting your speed is the "flight assist" system is just utterly hatstand.

If ED had full Newtonian flight, like the previous games, flight assist could be awesome, totally plausible and consistent...

Your confusion between "Newtonain" and "flight assist" exemplifies the dumbing-down FD have inflicted on their low-expectations user base. You think they're mutually-exclusive opposites! I expect most ED players suffer the same delusions. It's a travesty of what Elite used to be about, and what ED could've, & should've, achieved...

Am going to assume you understand the basics of C* Law/FADECS/EEC's/Engine software derates etc

Correct, the computers are always partially in control despite FA being disabled, essentially how things work in reality unless you start pulling circuit breakers.

Linear & Angular dampening exists in both modes

FA-ON - Max Roll/Pitch/Yaw rates are limited, Speed is software limited - In addition FA provides stick free stabilization.
FA-OFF - Max Roll/Pitch/Yaw rates are limited, Speed is software limited

Regarding engines, could be wrong here but I assumed we spent credits on different class thrusters to alter the amount of thrust generated by the engines, hence why we can haul more tonnage with higher rated engines. This is similar to how engine derates work in reality, top speed is irrelevant since the engines are software limited.

Am curious as to what your problem is with hard limiting speed? Be it straight line speed, pitch/roll/yaw rates etc, software hard limits for manoeuvring and thrust control have been around since the 1950's.
 
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Regarding engines, could be wrong here but I assumed we spent credits on different class thrusters to alter the amount of thrust generated by the engines, hence why we can haul more tonnage with higher rated engines.

In game terms, higher class thrusters have higher min/opt/maximal mass for the same rating and higher rated thrusters have both higher mass ratings and multipliers for the same class. So the above justification would be reasonable.

I like the idea of A, C and E thrusters being built from the same process and having the lower rated ones underclocked for a long lifespan (ie fewer trips to the ship integrity screen) at the cost of performance. Veteran players will remember when repairing wear and tear took a chunk of change.

There are actually three sets of curves. Speed, acceleration and turn are graded individually. However for standard thrusters the three curves are the same and the optimal multiplier is always 1.0. Enhanced thrusters have discrete values for each curve and as a result they affect the ship's handling quite strongly.

This is not news to 777Driver. For readers who are less familiar with thruster science, there are gory details for your reading pleasure.
 
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