Astronomy / Space How do you turn a neutron star into a black hole ?

By utilising two quantum mechanical phenomena that are operating on a star-sized scale in six-dimensional quantum phase space.


[video=youtube;xx4562gesw0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx4562gesw0[/video]


PBS Space Time has blown my mind again. For reality, this is extremely abstract stuff.
 
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It's all but bed time, can't watch video now... Surely, though, the answer is just "keep throwing matter at is until it has enough to collapse properly"?
 
Thanks for sharing commander...this was so cool! What website can I find these videos at?

---edit: found the youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7_gcs09iThXybpVgjHZ_7g

Frawd

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It's all but bed time, can't watch video now... Surely, though, the answer is just "keep throwing matter at is until it has enough to collapse properly"?

iain666...yes, in a nutshell

Frawd
 
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It's all but bed time, can't watch video now... Surely, though, the answer is just "keep throwing matter at is until it has enough to collapse properly"?

Like sandwich wrappers and exotic dancers ?

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Thanks for sharing commander...this was so cool! What website can I find these videos at?

---edit: found the youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7_gcs09iThXybpVgjHZ_7g

Frawd

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iain666...yes, in a nutshell

Frawd

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7_gcs09iThXybpVgjHZ_7g

I was ninja'd !!!
 
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It's all but bed time, can't watch video now... Surely, though, the answer is just "keep throwing matter at is until it has enough to collapse properly"?



Pretty much. ;)

There is a bit of an interesting philosophical question (with practical applications). Is the "information" about the NS lost when it collapses below the event horizon? Which is to say, if mass is just over 3 solar masses, and then evaporates sufficiently, will a Neutron Star emerge from the event horizon? Or will it just be a smaller black hole?

There are many theories, but really just don't know what's going on inside. There are too many conflicting macro and micro and universal principles at work.
 
This is what we THINK happens. We can not be completely sure without more info. It was a very interesting video though! =D
 
"keep throwing matter at is until it has enough to collapse properly"?

That's the basis of it yes; and that description was the limit of my understanding of it before watching this video. All the details he goes into was completely new information to me though - fascinating stuff.

This whole series is awesome!! Thanks for bringing this to out attention.

Frawd

PBS Space Time is a great series on YouTube. They don't excessively dumb down the physics like Brian Cox or Brian Greene. Its often too much for me to wrap my head around really, but always fascinating, extremely detailed and the most upto date, latest data is presented.

Also, check out DeepSkyVideos - another favorite series on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo-3ThNQmPmQSQL_L6Lx1_w
 
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Pretty much. ;)

There is a bit of an interesting philosophical question (with practical applications). Is the "information" about the NS lost when it collapses below the event horizon? Which is to say, if mass is just over 3 solar masses, and then evaporates sufficiently, will a Neutron Star emerge from the event horizon? Or will it just be a smaller black hole?

There are many theories, but really just don't know what's going on inside. There are too many conflicting macro and micro and universal principles at work.

IIRC once an event horizon has formed there's no un-forming it*; evaporation from Hawking radiation will just give you a smaller black hole. The weird thing is that an outside observer will never witness the final collapse of the original object, as time dilation goes to infinity as the infalling surface approaches the event horizon. So you're left with a ghost image of the last instant of the collapse, redshifted beyond detection. Arguably, one could say that (for us outside) all of the information the original object contained is smeared across the event horizon, frozen in time. *creepy music*


* Once things get down to the Planck scale, all bets are off. :D
 
Pretty much. ;)

There is a bit of an interesting philosophical question (with practical applications). Is the "information" about the NS lost when it collapses below the event horizon? Which is to say, if mass is just over 3 solar masses, and then evaporates sufficiently, will a Neutron Star emerge from the event horizon? Or will it just be a smaller black hole?

There are many theories, but really just don't know what's going on inside. There are too many conflicting macro and micro and universal principles at work.

Offhand, I'd suspect a smaller black hole. But also, "going on inside" relative to what? Looking at a relative time scale and the like, in a sense, there wouldn't seem to be an inside.

Edit: See also the post above this one. ;)
 
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Offhand, I'd suspect a smaller black hole. But also, "going on inside" relative to what? Looking at a relative time scale and the like, in a sense, there wouldn't seem to be an inside.

Edit: See also the post above this one. ;)

Think of it this way. A Neutron Star is sitting right at the precipice of 3 solar masses. And you add just enough mass for the radius to fall below the event horizon. For all we can tell, this looks like a black hole. However, all that has really happened was that the event horizon (which was previously inside the Neutron Star) is now outside the Neutron Star. So what is physically happening here? Was there a Black Hole singularity inside the Neutron Star the whole time? Just waiting to emerge? But then wouldn't the Neutron Star just collapse as soon as it formed due to a lack of neutron degeneracy pressure in the core. (or maybe Neutron Stars cores are just collapsing really slow from the outer layer's perspective? See below)

Ok now wait for the appropriate time for that small lump of mass we added to re-emerge via hawking radiation. Now the mass is reduced back to that of a stable Neutron Star, but does the Neutron Star also re-emerge because it was sitting just inside an intense curvature of spacetime? Or is it now a fully fledged black hole just because the Even Horizon moved? This feels like an arbitrary condition that is based more on the observer more than the nature of the object, and this is why I suspect it is wrong, and that the Neutron Star was there all along. Granted that the the rate of infalling of the old surface of the Neutron Star towards the singularity could exceed the radius reduction from Hawking Radiation, so that even though the radius of the Event Horizon has fallen in, the surface of the Neutron Star has fallen further and is now still just below the smaller Horizon.

But then this means that the core of all Neutron stars are really Black Holes that are collapsing on apparent timescales so long that the degeneracy pressure is still felt by the layers above it for eons. Which is consistent with what we think we know is happening inside, but also feels like a mental bandaid.
 
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Think of it this way. A Neutron Star is sitting right at the precipice of 3 solar masses. And you add just enough mass for the radius to fall below the event horizon. For all we can tell, this looks like a black hole. However, all that has really happened was that the event horizon (which was previously inside the Neutron Star) is now outside the Neutron Star. So what is physically happening here? Was there a Black Hole singularity inside the Neutron Star the whole time? Just waiting to emerge? But then wouldn't the Neutron Star just collapse as soon as it formed due to a lack of neutron degeneracy pressure in the core. (or maybe Neutron Stars cores are just collapsing really slow from the outer layer's perspective? See below)
I think perhaps the video may have been unintentionally misleading in the part leading up to the 'emergence' of the event horizon. Before the final collapse, there existed no 'real' event horizon; what was being depicted was the the Schwarzschild radius for the mass of the neutron star, ie. the volume its total mass would need to be compressed into for an event horizon to form. At the moment where the star's mass and density increase to the critical point, where the Schwarzschild radius is equal to (or greater than) the star's radius, a 'real' event horizon promptly appears.

There probably are circumstances where a region inside a larger object can reach that critical mass/density limit and collapse, then proceed to eat the rest of the object; in fact, I think this is theorized as the source of one type of gamma-ray burst. I think, however, that neutron degeneracy pressure prevents the inner regions of a neutron star from attaining a high enough density until the whole thing reaches the TOV limit.

Ok now wait for the appropriate time for that small lump of mass we added to re-emerge via hawking radiation. Now the mass is reduced back to that of a stable Neutron Star, but does the Neutron Star also re-emerge because it was sitting just inside an intense curvature of spacetime? Or is it now a fully fledged black hole just because the Even Horizon moved? This feels like an arbitrary condition that is based more on the observer more than the nature of the object, and this is why I suspect it is wrong, and that the Neutron Star was there all along. Granted that the the rate of infalling of the old surface of the Neutron Star towards the singularity could exceed the radius reduction from Hawking Radiation, so that even though the radius of the Event Horizon has fallen in, the surface of the Neutron Star has fallen further and is now still just below the smaller Horizon.

But then this means that the core of all Neutron stars are really Black Holes that are collapsing on apparent timescales so long that the degeneracy pressure is still felt by the layers above it for eons. Which is consistent with what we think we know is happening inside, but also feels like a mental bandaid.
Well, from the outsider's perspective ('at rest' with respect to the black hole) the collapse never actually finishes; the final instant is frozen in time and redshifted beyond all detectability on the horizon, so nothing* can actually emerge from it again. From the infalling point of view, spacetime gets kind of messed up once you cross the horizon (although the observer wouldn't really notice). The curvature at the horizon is so great that all possible paths anything can take inevitably lead to the singularity. And with nothing able to prevent the further collapse of the infalling matter a singularity forms, effectively at infinite density.

Bear in mind I'm no astrophysicist, so this is all 'interested layperson' levels of accurate. :)

Amusing thought: if you magicked into existence a sphere the size of our solar system filled with air (at standard, sea-level pressure), it would be a black hole. Big black holes have surprisingly-low density. :D


* For quantum-mechanical values of 'nothing'. :D Hawking radiation is weird.
 
Definitely some food for thought. I'll have to rewatch the video at some point too, but it seemed to me that they were describing the "inner black hole" as a black hole potential that doesn't get switch on (as it were) until the neutron star is compressed to a certain size and density. It's interesting to think that in certain scenarios there may actually already be an inner black hole; it would make sense that time dilation would play a significant role to what outside observers would see, or not see, of the black hole's formation and effects.

I'm an amateur physicist at best, so I'm not all that familiar with this nor the specifics, but I found the notion of the potential momentum vector dimensions (if you will) increasing in size as the potential location dimensions reduce in size to also be very fascinating, seemingly showing the kind of interplay between particle and wave physics. It makes sense that matter compressed into a neutron and held so tightly in place would have a huge range of potential momentum. It's interesting to think that the reality is the potential, but that's quantum physics for you, I guess.

Disclaimer: I may just be talking out of my rear end here, so please feel free to correct me or clarify these concepts further. :)

Also, for clarification, I was ninja'd by Cross. :eek:
 
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NOPE!!!

That's not how it works! Black holes are formed in the supernova rather than grown from neutron stars. Neutron stars and black holes can take matter from other stars, but this is very rare and the vast majority never do. We know of around 200 such systems in our galaxy, with an underlying population of maybe a few thousand, out of the hundred billion systems in our Galaxy.

Also, there is very little variation in the measured masses of accreting neutron stars, no matter how long they have been accreting (up to several billion years), or the accretion rate (which varies by factors of a million or so). Most matter that falls onto the neutron star surface is ejected in so called X-ray Bursts, where the thin layer of material reaches a critical point and ignites a thermonuclear explosion.

Also, black holes are far more likely to be physical objects hat are confined within the event horizon rather than singularities.

However, it is thought that two neutron stars smashing together cold form a black hole, and the video does give a good explanation of how that works :)
 
NOPE!!!

That's not how it works! Black holes are formed in the supernova rather than grown from neutron stars. Neutron stars and black holes can take matter from other stars, but this is very rare and the vast majority never do. We know of around 200 such systems in our galaxy, with an underlying population of maybe a few thousand, out of the hundred billion systems in our Galaxy.
Well, the majority of black holes (these days, at least) are thought to form as a supernova remnant, but not necessarily directly. Stellar material remaining after the supernova explosion will fall back onto the neutron star, driving it over the TOV limit. IIRC, a stellar collapse directly into a black hole is a pretty rare occurrence, the fate of stars massing ~90 solar masses or more.

Also, there is very little variation in the measured masses of accreting neutron stars, no matter how long they have been accreting (up to several billion years), or the accretion rate (which varies by factors of a million or so). Most matter that falls onto the neutron star surface is ejected in so called X-ray Bursts, where the thin layer of material reaches a critical point and ignites a thermonuclear explosion.

Also, black holes are far more likely to be physical objects hat are confined within the event horizon rather than singularities.

However, it is thought that two neutron stars smashing together cold form a black hole, and the video does give a good explanation of how that works :)
True enough... neutron stars will all tend to fall within a very narrow mass range, because otherwise they'd be white dwarfs or black holes. :D And most accretion is as you say, since the most common infalling materials will be lighter than iron and thus undergo fusion when they hit the star's surface. As for the singularity, it probably isn't actually infinitely dense, but until someone figures out a working theory of quantum gravity nobody can say for sure what it really is. XD
 
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Also, there's the damning fact that the mass difference between almost all known black holes and neutron stars is significantly larger than the total historic mass of the donor star :).

Also high mass, metal poor stars will lose very little material on the main sequence, so the mass requirement for turning into a black hole is much lower.
 
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I think the video was mostly just trying to show some of the underlying workings of how a black hole could be made, not necessarily how they are made.

As for a singularity at the center of a black hole, if one was to form, when would it? Beyond the end of eternity isn't a real answer in the known universe. Likewise, trying to define what is or isn't beyond the event horizon, from our perspective, almost seems like a false dichotomy. From our perspective, that occurrence never happens, yet there are black holes. If black holes evaporate, then they would seem to evaporate in an instant at the event horizon from that perspective. Either way, whatever is inside of a black hole would seem to be "gone;" it's just a matter of when it exactly "leaves." ;)

Edit: This seems like it might help address Ziljan's conundrum posed earlier as well as to why there would seem to just be a smaller black hole if some of its mass evaporates. You can't pull something back from infinite acceleration, even if it hasn't technically left yet.
 
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