How is this NOT a bug?

[Quantis Trap]

I know that the market part of the BGS in Elite Dangerous is complicated which makes things seem like a bug when they may not be BUT, how is this commodity pricing situation NOT a bug:

THE FOLLOWING IS USING ALL IN GAME TOOLS (no third party websites):

1. I go to a system and find Low Temp Diamonds (LTD as example commodity) being bought in two different stations in that system.
2. I go to one of the first station which reports that I can sell the one LTD in my hold (only one in this experiment) for 739k CR
3. While looking at the buy offer on the screen in step #2, I'm informed that I can sell my one LTD for 833k CR at the other station in the same system.
4. When I get to the second station in the same system where the game told me I'd be able to sell my one LTD for 833k three minutes ago, the best price is now 813k CR.

I've done this same test in several system and it always happens just in the time it take to get to the second station. How is this not a bug?

Can someone please explain why this should work this way?

Thanks

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

I know that the market part of the BGS in Elite Dangerous is complicated which makes things seem like a bug when they may not be BUT, how is this commodity pricing situation NOT a bug:

THE FOLLOWING IS USING ALL IN GAME TOOLS (no third party websites):

1. I go to a system and find Low Temp Diamonds (LTD as example commodity) being bought in two different stations in that system.
2. I go to one of the first station which reports that I can sell the one LTD in my hold (only one in this experiment) for 739k CR
3. While looking at the buy offer on the screen in step #2, I'm informed that I can sell my one LTD for 833k CR at the other station in the same system.
4. When I get to the second station in the same system where the game told me I'd be able to sell my one LTD for 833k three minutes ago, the best price is now 813k CR.

I've done this same test in several system and it always happens just in the time it take to get to the second station. How is this not a bug?

Can someone please explain why this should work this way?

Thanks

When you get to the second station, does it tell you how much you can sell the LTD unit for at the first station, and if so, is it the same price you were offered when you were actually there?

 

[Mr T]

I know that the market part of the BGS in Elite Dangerous is complicated which makes things seem like a bug when they may not be BUT, how is this commodity pricing situation NOT a bug:

THE FOLLOWING IS USING ALL IN GAME TOOLS (no third party websites):

1. I go to a system and find Low Temp Diamonds (LTD as example commodity) being bought in two different stations in that system.
2. I go to one of the first station which reports that I can sell the one LTD in my hold (only one in this experiment) for 739k CR
3. While looking at the buy offer on the screen in step #2, I'm informed that I can sell my one LTD for 833k CR at the other station in the same system.
4. When I get to the second station in the same system where the game told me I'd be able to sell my one LTD for 833k three minutes ago, the best price is now 813k CR.

I've done this same test in several system and it always happens just in the time it take to get to the second station. How is this not a bug?

Can someone please explain why this should work this way?

Thanks

@GraphiteGB is the expert on this and can explain it way better than I. From what I understand LTD's are now a special case and the demand for them goes down as soon as someone sells them to the station, whereas that doesn't happen with other commodities.

 

[Susanna]

@GraphiteGB is the expert on this and can explain it way better than I. From what I understand LTD's are now a special case and the demand for them goes down as soon as someone sells them to the station, whereas that doesn't happen with other commodities.

Well... That sucks

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Isn't that kind of cool and what all commodities should do .. it will make the economy much more realistic and more importantly more fun as would make sniffing out your own lucrative trade routes way more profitable (and encourage you to protect them for yourself).
It makes sense..... If it's a Friday night and I have no beer I may be desperate and be prepared to pay handsomely however as soon as the 1st person drops off a few crates I am not so worried so I will likely offer less for the rest.
If this worked for all commodities right up the chain it would.mean we could make full lucrative trade loops right from aggriculture growing food right to the top of the chain (and back down again selling equipment back to the aggriculture and mining places etc.

 

[NecasekO]

@GraphiteGB is the expert on this and can explain it way better than I. From what I understand LTD's are now a special case and the demand for them goes down as soon as someone sells them to the station, whereas that doesn't happen with other commodities.

This is incorrect. LTD demand works just like any other commodity EXCEPT painite.

Supply / demand worked like this since forever - station has demand which is fulfilled (goes down) as CMDRs sell commodity. Demand then goes back up every 10 minutes until it reaches its base value. However, there have been various bugs in supply demand updates over time. For a long time (past year or so) most high value mined commodities had instant demand reset, in the current version painite has the same bug.

As for the OP, I believe it's working as intended but the design is pretty bad because it's super confusing for players and the game UI doesn't explain what's happening. The game knows demand level and price in every station, but final price is decided only when you dock, based on how much cargo you have in hold. For rare commodities the price also depends on the distance from where you bought the cargo. Unfortunately most of this is hidden from players and the only thing they see is that station A offers X amount for a commodity but once they dock there with the commodity the price gets updated (decreased in case of low demand, increased in case of rare commodity).

 

[Quantis Trap]

Wow! Nice! Special maths for different commodities. We're all just rats in the Frontier half baked experiment!

 

[GraphiteGB]

Demand is unlimited For more than just painite its EVERY mining exclusive item thats not LTD...

Every single one has a resupply of demand figure that is impossible for the current miners to break...
As Ian will also post... Every item on a market has a resupply of demand figure and when sales to the station beat that figure they then drop in demand...

All mining items but LTD have this number set to insane levels that miners will never cause a drop...
CG items also have this resupply of demand set so high that on CG demand is never meat and the demand number that is set to all 9s that never ever drops and refills every time so that trade CGs stations have a fixed price and unlimited demand this is the same as all other mined items but LTD...
Aka core mine any thing but LTD and you do not have to deal with demand dropping at the station for the 24hr status cycle as miners will never beat the resupply of demand values...

Due to LTD price dropping at the ststion after every miner sale now external sites have a history of sale price and demand to show fill of demand...

Each one but LTD shows demand refiiling after sales... as long as its not LTD your selling...
Ignore those who bring in more than 25% of station demand that report FALSE low prices as they are being silly on PC and ignoring the 25% of demand at the market broker...
Yes the price shown at a station is only for 25% of orders the broker has,,, the other 75% of demand orders are not willing to pay the max price others are, so when you supply 26% of demand hes getting paid less so he pays you less....

 

[Quantis Trap]

The comparison between LTDs and other commodities is interesting, and well covered in other threads, but I'm not sure it's all that relevant to the very narrow definition of what I'm considering a bug in my original post.

 

[GraphiteGB]

Galaxy map and Market in game trade tools are not updated with new prices very offen after the Price/states tick of the day...
So this means for high sold player items there prices are normaly LOWER than the map/trade tool states as the data the map and market loads when not at the station is OLD...
When you land at the station the price is then updated live to you as you forced the price update...
Its not a bug it cheap cache pricing storage for data... Galaxy map and trade tools don't recheck the price untill you land at the station they load the cached data...
Its a short cut to save bandwidth and server cost... its not a bug its a "guide" price function not insured price...

 

[ubedead]

The station doesn't care how many you want to sell, it bases the sale price on how many you have in your cargo hold.

 

[Quantis Trap]

Galaxy map and Market in game trade tools are not updated with new prices very offen after the Price/states tick of the day...
So this means for high sold player items there prices are normaly LOWER than the map/trade tool states as the data the map and market loads when not at the station is OLD...
When you land at the station the price is then updated live to you as you forced the price update...
Its not a bug it cheap cache pricing storage for data... Galaxy map and trade tools don't recheck the price untill you land at the station they load the cached data...
Its a short cut to save bandwidth and server cost... its not a bug its a "guide" price function not insured price...

Yep. This is what I consider a bugged implementation when you can't even get the right price for stations in the same system. When is bad, misleading and frustrating data and game play ever a good idea when it could have been avoided.

Jokingly, maybe they should send the price updates via intercom since "This is your captain ..." style intercom massages which shouldn't make it outside a ship seem to have instant communication throughout a system.

The station doesn't care how many you want to sell, it bases the sale price on how many you have in your cargo hold.

This is irrelevant to my original beginning post on this thread because I only had one in my hold.

 

[GraphiteGB]

Yep. This is what I consider a bugged implementation. When is bad, misleading and frustrating data and game play ever a good idea when it could have been avoided.

Its all point less looking on galaxy map and Trade tools because Demand is never shown in game till you get to station. So it always still going to be a "guide" price as demand may only be 2 tons at the station any way and you wasted a trip. This happened yesterday with LTD the black market station was high price untill you got there as demand was 2 tons... And it was right next to were My carrier was parked so it showed as high sale station value...

 

[Quantis Trap]

To me, the tweaks Frontier have been making have not really been improving things. It's like all the knowledge of BGS black magic has left the Hotel Frontier. These days Frontier keeps stabbing it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the bugs!

 

[Micha]

Fall to see how it's a bug. Just accept that any price not shown in the actual Market is a guide price only. It's been like that ever since Elite84...

 

[Tikanderoga]

What's even more baffling that we have to land to get the prices.
"Hey $station, how much are you paying for 200t of $goods"
"Can't tell you cmdr, come and dock and see for yourself"
Restricted access!

While I see the more realistic approach to a live market demand for LTDs and Tritium, I also see how they failed at applying the same settings for all the other goods. I can buy 10000t of $goods at $station within the same tick period, even if there is only a supply of 800, and no one bats an eye. I'm not getting hit with any buy tax for buying up almost the entire market.
But dare me rocking up with a cargo load with more than 25% of demand, everyone loses their mind. Regardless if I intend to sell it all here or not. I get a lousy price nevertheless.

Ascaron did it right in Patrician II:
The price declined as you sold good and went to rock bottom when you started flooding the market.
Example: $good average price is 700.
Normal market was 100 units. (If 100 units were present, the price was at 700).
If there was a shortage, and units dropped to 80, price went up to 800. At 50, price was at 950, and if the market was dry at 0, price was 1050.
Now I rock up with a ship with said good, and I have 200 units for sale.
Unit 1-5 sell for 1050, because market is dry and demand super high
Unit 6-10 sell for 1040-1001
Unit 11-20 sell for 1000-951
Unit 21-50 sell for 950-941
Unit 51-80 sell for 940-800
Unit 81-100 sell for 800-700
Selling beyond unit 101 would net me below the average price of 700.
Unit 101-200 sell for 699-500


So as you sell more and more, the price drops of course, as you start to saturate the market.
And the sales prices were calculated for every unit gradually. not just a bulk number.
in numbers for units 1-5: 1050+1050+1050+1048+1046
Units 6-10: 1040+1030+1020+1010+1008
and so on.


So a market calculated this way (in both directions, sell and buy) would give it a more realistic approach. People could just sell the top 10t of LTDs and get the top dollar/credits, or buy stuff from overflowing markets for super cheap.
Got an abundance of food because of a great harvest? Get your fruit and veg for 70% off.
Famine? 1000% increase for the first 10000t of good delivered. Rich people will pay more to not starve first.

There you'd have a dynamic galaxy, living and breathing, a news ticker with highlights of monitored goods on stations of your choice.
Got a flood? Come and get that excess water?

 

[Mercury7]

If you update the trade data in the map for a system, it will tell you "DATA UP TO 24 HOURS OLD".

It's NOT real-time, which is basically what you're expecting.

AFAIK, the ability to request/update the trade data isn't even available unless it is a system you have previously visited.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It's not a bug. It's just that how it's designed isn't really useful. Market data isn't real time. That is all.

 

[Mercury7]

View attachment 191461

Where do you get this data? Is this a website or a seperate application?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

What's even more baffling that we have to land to get the prices.
"Hey $station, how much are you paying for 200t of $goods"
"Can't tell you cmdr, come and dock and see for yourself"
Restricted access!

While I see the more realistic approach to a live market demand for LTDs and Tritium, I also see how they failed at applying the same settings for all the other goods. I can buy 10000t of $goods at $station within the same tick period, even if there is only a supply of 800, and no one bats an eye. I'm not getting hit with any buy tax for buying up almost the entire market.
But dare me rocking up with a cargo load with more than 25% of demand, everyone loses their mind. Regardless if I intend to sell it all here or not. I get a lousy price nevertheless.

Ascaron did it right in Patrician II:
The price declined as you sold good and went to rock bottom when you started flooding the market.
Example: $good average price is 700.
Normal market was 100 units. (If 100 units were present, the price was at 700).
If there was a shortage, and units dropped to 80, price went up to 800. At 50, price was at 950, and if the market was dry at 0, price was 1050.
Now I rock up with a ship with said good, and I have 200 units for sale.
Unit 1-5 sell for 1050, because market is dry and demand super high
Unit 6-10 sell for 1040-1001
Unit 11-20 sell for 1000-951
Unit 21-50 sell for 950-941
Unit 51-80 sell for 940-800
Unit 81-100 sell for 800-700
Selling beyond unit 101 would net me below the average price of 700.
Unit 101-200 sell for 699-500


So as you sell more and more, the price drops of course, as you start to saturate the market.
And the sales prices were calculated for every unit gradually. not just a bulk number.
in numbers for units 1-5: 1050+1050+1050+1048+1046
Units 6-10: 1040+1030+1020+1010+1008
and so on.


So a market calculated this way (in both directions, sell and buy) would give it a more realistic approach. People could just sell the top 10t of LTDs and get the top dollar/credits, or buy stuff from overflowing markets for super cheap.
Got an abundance of food because of a great harvest? Get your fruit and veg for 70% off.
Famine? 1000% increase for the first 10000t of good delivered. Rich people will pay more to not starve first.

There you'd have a dynamic galaxy, living and breathing, a news ticker with highlights of monitored goods on stations of your choice.
Got a flood? Come and get that excess water?

I agree that would be a very good way of doing it (exact numbers to flood the market would be linked to population as well as other BGS factors I imagine (so for instance a system with 6 billion in out break it WOULD be logistically impossible for players to flood the market with medical vaccines.. (but you may be requested to dole out some of it to different ports)...... But a system with a population of 50,000 then sure you could.
..