How many does it take to change a controlling faction?

[Stabby_Dave]

Hi.

I've found a system with a population of 1700 odd, and wondered how many CMDRs it would (roughly) take to change the controlling faction by mission running and trading (assuming nobody is working against us).

I've been doing INF++++ and INF+++++ missions all day, but the % hasn't changed.

Anyone got ant ideas?

Cheers.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Influence only updates on the daily tick, not for every mission.
If the population is only 1,700 the you can easily flip it by yourself.

 

[Mohrgan]

Yup, low population systems are easily corrupted by a lone pilot.

 

[Roybe]

You only have to wait for the tick....and all will be revealed! Good luck!

 

[Stabby_Dave]

Thanks, guys. Roll on tomorrow ;o)

 

[Jmanis]

Yup, low population systems are easily corrupted by a lone pilot.

Less so these days. It's highly uncommon though doable to get a swing of much more than 4% these days. Again... doable, but a lot of ducks need to line up.

Go check the bgs subforum... there's some discussions about it there.

To exemplify, a 1500 pop system my faction owned got flipped recently... i investigated when there was regular support occurring for another faction, and my efforts to oppose it alone were fruitless. Daily traffic report inicated 50+ pilots a day... where no more than a half dozen is the normal background.

Despite those numbers... their effort never yielded much more than 4%. Larger changes require orders of magnitude more effort.

Edit: there's some theories that claim 4%Is the maximum change you can effect. I don't agree with that because it breaks certain things in the bgs if that were the case... but it at least sends to be a good pace stick.

 

[cmdr milesred]

4% ??....it happens, but..20% a day is doable, you just need to know how or rather what needs doing....
And obviously it will be highly dependent on the population size + a few other factors and if you are working against other players or not.
The math there is simplicity
increase 1 faction by a solid 10%, then depending on the system of course, but the jist = lower the inf of the other factions, any amount you can lower them by will be gained by at least 1 faction...you can control or direct the lost inf to specific factions but if you do not do that then lost inf will be spread across all of the remaining factions, but you can often control which faction gets what you forced away from another faction.

All that aside, there are of course things that can make it fail, fdev has had to go directly to many systems and customize certain things to get the missions boards to work properly, read around...there are many complaints about 0 missions daily....it used to happen a lot.
Sometimes fdev leans on the numbers for all kinds of aggrevating reasons....hand of God type of crud...

as for the daily changes - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/when-and-what-is-the-tick.400292/unread

 

[Bloodsign]

Less so these days. It's highly uncommon though doable to get a swing of much more than 4% these days. Again... doable, but a lot of ducks need to line up.

Go check the bgs subforum... there's some discussions about it there.

To exemplify, a 1500 pop system my faction owned got flipped recently... i investigated when there was regular support occurring for another faction, and my efforts to oppose it alone were fruitless. Daily traffic report inicated 50+ pilots a day... where no more than a half dozen is the normal background.

Despite those numbers... their effort never yielded much more than 4%. Larger changes require orders of magnitude more effort.

Edit: there's some theories that claim 4%Is the maximum change you can effect. I don't agree with that because it breaks certain things in the bgs if that were the case... but it at least sends to be a good pace stick.

4%... is this change per day per pilot? That's actually quite a lot.

 

[cmdr milesred]

per day per a single faction, not per pilot, the game doesn't calculate inf that way....eg - 100 pilots @ 1% ea= disaster...can't happen

If you have zero opposition, then depending on population and then of course other factors, 1 pilot can easily do 1% to 20% in one day..

I say it that way because first the smaller the pop the easier it will be to make them grow, as long as the other factors aren't missing or are all messed up.
ex: pop:1700 system has lots of planets but only 1 outpost and only 2 or 3 factions, no extraction sites, normal nav beacon and none of the factions are present in another system.
Then this is going to be hard work, easy to grow because they are tiny, but with difficulty getting bounties and with only 2 or 3 factions...tough to do business.
In this case you are going to be stuck at small % daily until you can manage to expand hopefully into systems that have better resources.
just 1 of many possible scenarios.
most places that don't already have cmdr's doing business there already will pretty much have the buckets all on empty, except maybe the bad buckets...as they may be close to starving or close to unrest or outbreak....
the point there is that you often have to waste a day filling buckets, so that on the 2nd day it actually starts to change..
ex: adding 500k bounty vouchers daily to such a place will likely only do 1 to 5% daily for the first day or 2, so if you know this might happen, be prepared, drop a few mil in carto data, that will kickstart and give lots % next day, same with bounty, give 2-5 mil,
once it starts, then it keeps moving with less effort. as in a system this size, if all the buckets are GTG, then 1 lousy mission a day can get you 1 to 5% easily.
if that pop were 6bil instead, then instead of 1 to 10% for above effort, you might only get 1-2%
And for every person doing plus things, if there is an equal number of cmdrs opposing you or even 1 cmdr doing the effort of 10 cmdrs......obviously..change will be minimal if at all or even the exact opposite of what you expected.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Edit: there's some theories that claim 4%Is the maximum change you can effect. I don't agree with that because it breaks certain things in the bgs if that were the case... but it at least sends to be a good pace stick.

Just in Colonia Saturday->Sunday this week, I have a -8 and a +6.1 swing recorded ... over the last month the range goes from -11.5 to +9.6

So you're definitely right that >4% changes are possible.

 

[Jmanis]

Just in Colonia Saturday->Sunday this week, I have a -8 and a +6.1 swing recorded ... over the last month the range goes from -11.5 to +9.6

So you're definitely right that >4% changes are possible.

Yeah... based off the above responses i regret mentioning the 4% thing.... i have theories about how higher changes can happen but zero reportable data to back it up. So I'm definitely not going near that speculation now

What i guess i meant was "if you think you can flip a system just as easily as the old mechanics used to allow, think again". Things have changed.

There's a good chart somewhere in the bgs forums with pop versus inf changes in it. It makes it fairly apparent why 4% is just a good pace stick... but completely unsuitable to be considered fact.

I'd link... but mobile...

 

[cmdr milesred]

I indicated as high as 20%. I have been managing my systems for over 4 years and have numerous instances of INF going both up and/or down as high as 20% in 1 tick. and a couple cases where it was slightly over 20%
That case was me taking a system from another player faction...It was only a few mil pop, I did enough missions + bounties to push me up about 12%, but then I also slaughtered the oppositions sec ships and clean ships, that dropped them more than 10%.
Some of the inf went to other factions but most went straight to me so I gained 22% that day..There were still a couple things I could have done that day to try and make it even more, but I thought what I did that day would be enough and it was. we went to war and I won the system

I have used an excel workbook to track every BGS related thing I have done for my faction.. It was never about proof for anything, just an easy way to monitor changes and what it took to get those changes.
To make that even easier, I did write my own program that uses the logs to show me systems info, and eventually just made it so the program enters the daily systems data into the sheets for me...15 minutes of flying around every day to capture it ....

 

[Jmanis]

I indicated as high as 20%. I have been managing my systems for over 4 years and have numerous instances of INF going both up and/or down as high as 20% in 1 tick. and a couple cases where it was slightly over 20%
That case was me taking a system from another player faction...It was only a few mil pop, I did enough missions + bounties to push me up about 12%, but then I also slaughtered the oppositions sec ships and clean ships, that dropped them more than 10%.
Some of the inf went to other factions but most went straight to me so I gained 22% that day..There were still a couple things I could have done that day to try and make it even more, but I thought what I did that day would be enough and it was. we went to war and I won the system

I have used an excel workbook to track every BGS related thing I have done for my faction.. It was never about proof for anything, just an easy way to monitor changes and what it took to get those changes.
To make that even easier, I did write my own program that uses the logs to show me systems info, and eventually just made it so the program enters the daily systems data into the sheets for me...15 minutes of flying around every day to capture it ....

Yup. Again, I'm holding off wild speculation, but for me it's pretty clear to get larger effects (like 20%) regularly you need to use combinations of activities (like you said, missions plus bounties, criminal activity etc)[1]... meanwhile using just one type of activity will result in nominal gains like I'm mentioning.

It's a real PITA I can't find the table someone posted recently, but it's basically a listing of "Here's a standardised activity, (something like 40 missions or something) in as close to controlled systems as possible, and here's the observed influence effects for a variety of starting influences. For a low-pop, low inf system, you'd get anywhere up to 20% changes, for a high-pop, (billions), high inf system you get as low as 0.2%, but taking that "standard" in most cases will give 4% +/- some small deviation, noting it's the effect of a single activity type.

Just in case it's not clear, I'm totally agreeing with you I think the key is varied activities... I just don't have any hard data to base that on.

[1] noting you say it pushed you 12%, but at risk of teaching grandma how to suck eggs, that same effort will have wildly varying results if you started out at 10% versus 80% influence.

 

[Aashenfox]

It';s interesting that Jmanis is referring to different activities making more of a difference, I vaguely remember something about diminishing returns on inf changes since 3.3 seems to be valid.

 

[cmdr milesred]

yes, correct, very hard to do as 1st thing after an expansion.
I simply started slow with missions and small amount of bounty to fill the buckets and keep me there whilst I prepped the other minor factions to go into civil wars, once they were all at war I zoomed past them by doing as many missions as possible and then topping it off with 5-10mil a day and whilst doing that I also provided some other forms of faction damage to the controlling player faction while also killing their clean ships and sec ships, dropping them so fast in large amounts that by the time the war was over I had hit over 70% and they were being pressed and held at .9% till they retreated.

as for the chart you refer to, I wouldn't worry about it...the jist of it all is that any 1 of the major thing you can do in a system for your faction, 1 type of action can get you 10% per tick, if you have the ability/time/manpower required to fill the buckets.
Then if you are able to combine methods...you can get 20-30% , so 10% x how ever many types of action you can manage.
Most people know the main types of action, some know of more. Those 'More' are rarely ever written on anyones web page about BGS
Those cmdrs that do know of the 'more' tend to not share 100%, but as you see that I have indicated, 10% is normal, 20% very doable, over 20% per tick also doable but harder and many don't know enough action types to make that happen. And if you have enough people you could luck into it..but not too likely or you would have already seen such inf swings a lot...

 

[cmdr milesred]

diminishing returns has always been there

in a system of 100k pop, submit 10mil a day in bounties, as long as that's all you do 10% is the max, give them 20 mil, 50 mil, you will still only get 10%
you have to combine methods to get past 10%

just an example...not quite the real numbers..

BTW, I refer to inf% gained per tick, not a % of the pop, the only thing that matters in this is the total %=100, and we tend to start in a system at about 9% and so I then refer to adding 10% of the total 100% to the 9%, then 10% to the 19% next day etc...just wanted to try and make sure that's clear

 

[Jmanis]

diminishing returns has always been there

in a system of 100k pop, submit 10mil a day in bounties, as long as that's all you do 10% is the max, give them 20 mil, 50 mil, you will still only get 10%
you have to combine methods to get past 10%

just an example...not quite the real numbers..

BTW, I refer to inf% gained per tick, not a % of the pop, the only thing that matters in this is the total %=100, and we tend to start in a system at about 9% and so I then refer to adding 10% of the total 100% to the 9%, then 10% to the 19% next day etc...just wanted to try and make sure that's clear

Thanks for clarification, as that's definitely not how i was interpreting it. Rereading everything, we're pretty much in agreeance, just stating it differently.