Elite / Frontier Howabout this framework for an Elite 4?

[Jetblack]

Okay my favourite 3 games combined into one open ended universe on the lines of the galaxy created in the Frontier/FFE games, with an RPG stat based approach to squad based shooter mission a la Mass Effect/XCOM.

I wrote this in more detail on the Bioware forum through dissapointment at how they had turned ME2 into a dumbed down shooter. But the galactic map in ME2 reminds me so much of a sumbed down version of the old Frontier/FFE maps that i honestly believe there is a super game to be made which marries a space sim such as a modern day FFE, with a complex squad based action game for surface missions.

Any comments would be appreciated:

"Imagine Elite/ME/XCOM combo type game - that would be special"

"I'm sure this is way too ambitious but my dream game would be one where you have a squad based tactical shooter like ME, but it expands the squad based RPG system along the lines of detail one finds in the first XCOM games. So each of their stats (health, strength, reactions, accuracy etc) improve as they practice those stats during missions. And they should be allowed to die if they are too weak. You will care vastly more about the quality of your team if they can actually die, loosing them for the rest of the game. So you can have the same emphasis on building a strong team, relationships etc and care infinitely more about them.

The combat for such a system could be handled in real-time with a pause (squad order function) as in ME1/2 or say like in Fallout 3 with a VATs type system. XCOM was turn based but could today be implemnted with the more modern combat systems using pause to queue up orders/targets.

So where does Elite/Frontier/FFE come into the equation? If you look at the ME1/2 galaxy map its similar to the galaxy maps in Braben's space sims. Basically you have a load of star systems/clusters along the galactic plane. However Frontier/FFE had literally thousands of planets you could land on. Problem is you could not get out explore the terrain, as this is early 90s and graphics were crap compared to today.

So in a nutshell, the game handles surface based cities, bases, missions as in ME1 or 2. But then handles any space travel as a space-sim. You as the Commander buy your ships, outfit them, perhaps choose how much of an escort fighter wing is needed, drones etc...

I would suggest one has a cruiser with fighters on board which can be launched for space based battles/protect the cruiser or mothership. Either the computer handles the drones, fighters, or the player can take over as wing leader. So there would be a similar stat based RPG system to the pilots you hire to fly the fighters off your cruiser (which has quarters for crew/squad etc...just like in ME1/2.

There could be a main plot/quest which revolves armound various star systems, and then side missions available from space stations BBS type forums, perhaps they only open up as your XP and levels increase. And you can have different factions throughout the galaxy which you can do jobs for. Think Morrowind guilds/factions etc in space.

Okay so this is super ambitious but a way to make it possible to add mass content to the game is to create a DLC editor that handles all objects including planets, surface envronments, NPCs, ships, weapons, armour etc...

So modders could say stake out planet x in the y system and add content such as a base, or a city, NPCs, missions etc...

However it absolutely has to be an open universe. None of this maps closing behind you and not being able to return to systems and planets.

Also space travel should be realistic if the player wants it, with a time dilation feature for those that just want to always travel instantaneously from say system relay entry to habitated destination.

Perhaps space combat is not handled in newtonian fashion because i dont see how most gamers could get into the science necessary to understand acceleration/de-acceleration physics, but the standard travelling could be newtonian based to some extent.

Am i being overtly optimistic? Probably."

 

[potsmoke66]

that's not so hard piloting a ship is mostly done by intention
you don't have to take your abakus to play frontier, except you want to proceed a slingshot and get it at the first try.
but your ideas are nice (nice ideas, sounds familiar).

 

[Jetblack]

that's not so hard piloting a ship is mostly done by intention
you don't have to take your abakus to play frontier, except you want to proceed a slingshot and get it at the first try.

Problem is most gamers wont like space combat with newtonian physics. I personally have no problem with it, but we are talking about the xbox gen

If you want even a marginal commercial success they have to be taken into account.

Look at what Bioware did to Mass Effct 2 because they decided to go after the xboc console shooter crowd. They dumped all the interesting squad configuration, stats, inventories, and sort of nitty gritty game mecahnics.

Its now a level shooter, more or less. Boring.

I just meant one might have to compromise on the space based physics because i bet even if Braben makes an Elite 4, the physics wll be dumbed down compared to FFE/Frontier.

 

[Steve O B Have]

Problem is most gamers wont like space combat with newtonian physics. I personally have no problem with it, but we are talking about the xbox gen

If you want even a marginal commercial success they have to be taken into account.

Look at what Bioware did to Mass Effct 2 because they decided to go after the xboc console shooter crowd. They dumped all the interesting squad configuration, stats, inventories, and sort of nitty gritty game mecahnics.

Its now a level shooter, more or less. Boring.

I just meant one might have to compromise on the space based physics because i bet even if Braben makes an Elite 4, the physics wll be dumbed down compared to FFE/Frontier.

I'd have to strongly dissagree with you. The Newtonian physics is an absolute must otherwise it degrades to an arcade space shooter. The X series, Eve Online etc are all in my opinion shadows of what Frontier E2 and FFE were for a space immersion game.

I also dissagree with you on the Mass Effect 2 call - I think it's a brilliant game - agreed it has become a bit more simplistic but it has allowed the story to come to the fore. I got completely over having to go through my inventory and sell stuff off constantly and mess around with weapons configs. I just wanted to get on with the game and I felt that in ME it bogged it down. I find ME2 to flow considerably better.

As for David and Frontier dumbing down the physics, I will bet my bottom dollar that they will not compromise on the newtonian physics, if only for the integrity from the game being a space sim and not an arcade shooter.

 

[Jetblack]

I'd have to strongly dissagree with you. The Newtonian physics is an absolute must otherwise it degrades to an arcade space shooter. The X series, Eve Online etc are all in my opinion shadows of what Frontier E2 and FFE were for a space immersion game.

I also dissagree with you on the Mass Effect 2 call - I think it's a brilliant game - agreed it has become a bit more simplistic but it has allowed the story to come to the fore. I got completely over having to go through my inventory and sell stuff off constantly and mess around with weapons configs. I just wanted to get on with the game and I felt that in ME it bogged it down. I find ME2 to flow considerably better.

As for David and Frontier dumbing down the physics, I will bet my bottom dollar that they will not compromise on the newtonian physics, if only for the integrity from the game being a space sim and not an arcade shooter.

I think you are naively idealistic from a commercial development of Elite 4 perspective. And i say that in the nicest way possible because i understand your sentiment. However when Elite/Frontier/FFE were made the computers folks used were based on DOS or some other relatilvey cumbersome platform compared to todays PCs running on easy to use Windows. And much of the game market has moved to console such as XBOX etc...

I really cannot see how navigating at very high velocities in a genuinely newtonian enviroment can be made easy enough to master for the majority of todays gamers, accustomed to spoon-fed "easiness."

After they plough into the moon several times they would probably throw up their hands in disgust and say the game is rubbish.

However im not saying get rid of Newtonian physcis completely, im just saying that for it to be a commercial success some hrybid system would have to be developed for combat. Maybe something like anti-grav boosters for the spaceships or something that can allow the player the illusion of not having to finely tune their acceleration/de-acceleration in order to manouvre the craft competently.

And i was not saying Mass Effect 2 was not a good game. Its okay, but i expected a lot more after ME1.

 

[Jetblack]

Steve,

Sorry missed this bit:

"As for David and Frontier dumbing down the physics, I will bet my bottom dollar that they will not compromise on the newtonian physics, if only for the integrity from the game being a space sim and not an arcade shooter."

Perhaps that is one of the reasons we have yet to see an Elite 4 from Mr Braben?

I agree that the X series of games and the majority like them with ridiculous space physics would be awful for Elite 4. However i remember complaining about this very fact on X forums a couple years a go and none of those X fans cared less that space stations were 25 meteres apart from eachother, and that spacecraft turned ona dime.

They just dont care and Im afraid they are probably the majority today.

 

[potsmoke66]

if david braben would have thought about the majority of gamers (85) he wouldn't have made elite, he would have made something like a maze or platform game which was a real commercial succsess in those day's and majority of producers (not developers) was hunting in the same direction. if he would have thought about majority of gamers (93), he would have released another "smash bros." or "streetfight" game, which was commercial succsessfull then, he didn't. he devoloped and released elite and later on frontier, not to be commercial succsessful in first place, i think, to be famous as the first who did something new, some gameplay never known before, to be acribical realistic as it was possible under the given circumstances. a vector grafx based 3dgame, there was only two arcade games those days using this techgnology "battle zone" '80 atari and "red baron" '80 atari both arcade games (atari attracts the us army they never had seen something like it before, the birth of battle simulators). in mid '80 a pure vector grafx based console was released named "vectrex", never was a succsess, due to the lack of colors. elite came in all mixed up with elements of trade and social interaction (some at least) and of course newtonian physics (i think if elite didn't matched it, it wasn't because he was not willing) a major part of the game and to me. that's what makes the difference, frontier is/was not the graphical stunnig game, everybody said "yeah" (and forgot it, after you finished after a weekend), frontier (quality) made it in the long run, that's what counts. now i hear you say "quality? that game is so buggy....", hey, look at it's size, look at how things are build up (generated), to get a little closer into it i recommend theonis de jongs article about the frontier objects and how he (DB) solved the problems, after you will say braben is a (code)magician!

now tell me something; why should he release now something compliant to standarts? only because some young dudes have no time or sense for it, they will learn, another part of any great, long endurance gameplay, to learn.

 

[potsmoke66]

additional i have to say my stepson, is now 17. when it came to computergames in the age of 10 or so (he played as well before, but then he starts to get his own), he felt uncomfortable with the games i played and shooks often his head when i start to play some old games, uttering something
like: "how could you play a game that has no colours?", but later on, he starts to understand (after he gets experienced with games you can run through in a weekend) my kind of games and why i love them so much. computergames can last for years or for a day.
until i got divorced, we played often (amongst others) "shark, shark" on the inty emu, a simple big fish eats small fish game for two players, but it's cool as it's simple.
sadly he never felt comfortable with frontier, i think some people simply don't like it (it's no must), thats how i got my frontier for the amiga, it was a leftover from a friend, he didn't liked it and he didn't understand the gamplay (as well as lack of speaking english). david (my stepson) likes to play ego shooters, in first degree, some adventure/roleplaying might be his thing, but he don't likes simulations. he also never played with lego (just watching while mom and dad was busy building).
somewhere we can meet are racing games, but to him they have to be more action loadet then realistic.
this boy (all children) is rediculous, he can play, watch tv, talk to his mom, and win the race. but i'm shure, out there must be some young dude, loving frontier

 

[Geraldine]

I really cannot see how navigating at very high velocities in a genuinely newtonian enviroment can be made easy enough to master for the majority of todays gamers, accustomed to spoon-fed "easiness."

That is the crux of the problem isn't it?. It's not meant to be easy to master. You can get the basics of the flight mechanics in a few minutes, but to really master it, you also have to spend time on it.

I recall playing Frontier for the first time and crashed loads of times, but I knew that this was a "David Braben Elite" game. So I stuck with it and reaped the rewards of a deeply involving game that to this day I can still enjoy.

Elite IV will have to be brave (just as the original Elite was when faced by a games industry that had a very rigid outlook on what a game "must have", like 3 lives) and go against this modern day downward spiral the games industry is set upon by creating easy to play but none the less, shallow plot-less offerings. Flashy graphics are nice to look at, but their appeal will only last a short time. Longevity comes from an involving game play and deeper than deep plots wrapped within that which grabs the gamer and keeps them not only occupied, but rewarded, surprised and even at times punished.

One game Jetblack, can change an industry if it's good enough. David Braben done it before, my bet is (with no naivety involved at all), he can do so again

 

[potsmoke66]

i can't write that fast

 

[Geraldine]

i can't write that fast

Oh there's plenty who can write faster than me on this forum potsmoke, the trick is not how much you write, but what you write!

 

[potsmoke66]

something i regret is that i didn't used my real name, to be called by your nickname is a bit distant.

 

[Geraldine]

something i regret is that i didn't used my real name, to be called by your nickname is a bit distant.

I dunno potsmoke, as nicknames go it's not a bad one

 

[Callum Rowley]

From a general / observant perspective, determining your target audience in today's gaming climate is no easy challenge. I think the vast majority of gamers prefer the easier "casual friendly" games which they can play in chunks of a few hours, or in the MMO space - can reach max level without having to see another player or grind excessively.

However, games such as Demon Soul (as an example) have shown us the market for hardcore games is still there and if the quality is good enough, people will buy them - or at least show an interest of sorts (most people around the Frontier office have at least tried Demon Soul or heard great things about it - and it's not even out here).

something i regret is that i didn't used my real name, to be called by your nickname is a bit distant.

I can change your username if you want something different, just send me a PM with what you'd like it to be changed to.

 

[potsmoke66]

no i will stay with it, since people on a few sites know me by this name and it would sound not good "former......"

 

[potsmoke66]

no i will stay with it, since people on a few sites know me by this name and it would sound not good "former......"

i think that's a solution too.

 

[Jetblack]

if david braben would have thought about the majority of gamers (85) he wouldn't have made elite, he would have made something like a maze or platform game which was a real commercial succsess in those day's and majority of producers (not developers) was hunting in the same direction. if he would have thought about majority of gamers (93), he would have released another "smash bros." or "streetfight" game, which was commercial succsessfull then, he didn't. he devoloped and released elite and later on frontier, not to be commercial succsessful in first place, i think, to be famous as the first who did something new, some gameplay never known before, to be acribical realistic as it was possible under the given circumstances. a vector grafx based 3dgame, there was only two arcade games those days using this techgnology "battle zone" '80 atari and "red baron" '80 atari both arcade games (atari attracts the us army they never had seen something like it before, the birth of battle simulators). in mid '80 a pure vector grafx based console was released named "vectrex", never was a succsess, due to the lack of colors. elite came in all mixed up with elements of trade and social interaction (some at least) and of course newtonian physics (i think if elite didn't matched it, it wasn't because he was not willing) a major part of the game and to me. that's what makes the difference, frontier is/was not the graphical stunnig game, everybody said "yeah" (and forgot it, after you finished after a weekend), frontier (quality) made it in the long run, that's what counts. now i hear you say "quality? that game is so buggy....", hey, look at it's size, look at how things are build up (generated), to get a little closer into it i recommend theonis de jongs article about the frontier objects and how he (DB) solved the problems, after you will say braben is a (code)magician!

now tell me something; why should he release now something compliant to standarts? only because some young dudes have no time or sense for it, they will learn, another part of any great, long endurance gameplay, to learn.

Okay first of all, Elite and Frontier were perfectly good commercial games for the time when they were developed. I dont agree he was taking a big chance, particulalry on Frontier/FFE.

I think the game industry today is very different than it was then and there is way more competition these days. games are far more expensive to develop than they were even 5-10 years ago.

You argue as to why Braben would now look to develop something which has popular appeal. Well looks at all the other titles of Frontier Development and im afriad none of them are quantum leaps in gaming.

Sorry i just dont accept that Braben will suddenly look to create an Elite 4, which has a steep learning curve. It will cost some serious money to make the next Elite a serious contender for game of the year prize.

They want commercial success or they lose money. Its that simple.

I agree that Elite 4 should not be dumbed down too much. My first post should make it clear i hate dumbed down games.

But being realistic i think they'll have to make space combat more smooth, and quicker to engage it competently because the majority of gamers just dont have the attention span they used to.

Also people keep forgetting that when Elite and Frontier/FFE were developed, the most common gaming platform was a PC runing old dos. So in those days most gamers were used to getting their hands dirty to a much greater extent than the plug and play consoles of today.

This is an important difference in gaming environment and i think you have failed to take that into account.

 

[Jetblack]

That is the crux of the problem isn't it?. It's not meant to be easy to master. You can get the basics of the flight mechanics in a few minutes, but to really master it, you also have to spend time on it.

I recall playing Frontier for the first time and crashed loads of times, but I knew that this was a "David Braben Elite" game. So I stuck with it and reaped the rewards of a deeply involving game that to this day I can still enjoy.

Elite IV will have to be brave (just as the original Elite was when faced by a games industry that had a very rigid outlook on what a game "must have", like 3 lives) and go against this modern day downward spiral the games industry is set upon by creating easy to play but none the less, shallow plot-less offerings. Flashy graphics are nice to look at, but their appeal will only last a short time. Longevity comes from an involving game play and deeper than deep plots wrapped within that which grabs the gamer and keeps them not only occupied, but rewarded, surprised and even at times punished.

One game Jetblack, can change an industry if it's good enough. David Braben done it before, my bet is (with no naivety involved at all), he can do so again

I would love nothing better than for you to be right about this

But i would suggest that the reaosn there has been no Elite 4 is because this is the very nub of the problem when viewed by Mr Braben and the accountants at Frontier.

Im sure he would love to make a modern day, realistic newtonian space sim. If anyone could do it he could.

 

[Steve O B Have]

I think you are naively idealistic from a commercial development of Elite 4 perspective. And i say that in the nicest way possible because i understand your sentiment. However when Elite/Frontier/FFE were made the computers folks used were based on DOS or some other relatilvey cumbersome platform compared to todays PCs running on easy to use Windows. And much of the game market has moved to console such as XBOX etc...

I really cannot see how navigating at very high velocities in a genuinely newtonian enviroment can be made easy enough to master for the majority of todays gamers, accustomed to spoon-fed "easiness."

After they plough into the moon several times they would probably throw up their hands in disgust and say the game is rubbish.

I see where you are coming from and from a certain perspective agree with you. It's just how far do you go with a games physics before you end up with playing in a view behind your ship with a targeting reticule floating around in front of you? I guess to a large extent it does come down to how accessible you want your product to be.

However im not saying get rid of Newtonian physcis completely, im just saying that for it to be a commercial success some hrybid system would have to be developed for combat. Maybe something like anti-grav boosters for the spaceships or something that can allow the player the illusion of not having to finely tune their acceleration/de-acceleration in order to manouvre the craft competently.

And i was not saying Mass Effect 2 was not a good game. Its okay, but i expected a lot more after ME1.

I for one would prefer the option to perhaps turn the Newtonian on or off depending on your desired playing style. The catch I can see there is that you would also have to effect the enemy AI in the same way. I never really enjoyed the combat in Elite quite as much as I did in Frontier because often combat was reduced to a stop and start scenario whilst you waited for an enemy to finish circling you. Perhaps the alternative is to artificially set the engaging distance when you choose to attack so there isn't the huge jousting distances involved. When you decide you've had enough and run then those restraints are relaxed.

I personally feel that the Newtonian physics actually added a level to the playability as well as depth... I can see how others may not.

Steve,

Sorry missed this bit:

"As for David and Frontier dumbing down the physics, I will bet my bottom dollar that they will not compromise on the newtonian physics, if only for the integrity from the game being a space sim and not an arcade shooter."

Perhaps that is one of the reasons we have yet to see an Elite 4 from Mr Braben?

I agree that the X series of games and the majority like them with ridiculous space physics would be awful for Elite 4. However i remember complaining about this very fact on X forums a couple years a go and none of those X fans cared less that space stations were 25 meteres apart from eachother, and that spacecraft turned ona dime.

They just dont care and Im afraid they are probably the majority today.

Ugh - the X series just annoyed me. I found X3-TC to be one of the most frustrating and unintuitive games I have ever played. Why is it that you have to fly within close proximity to a space station to identify it? What possible game mechanic makes sense like that? I also found the trading to be overly complex and moronic.

Eve Online I got a bit of enjoyment out of but eventually the grind got me down and the lack of wonder that used to come from exploration. There is nothing in the game that keeps someone engaged if they want to explore or play as a lone wolf.

I think Elite could quite easily get beyond that if the environment itself is rich enough. There are two points of view when engaging gamers, one is that you cater to their whims and deliver something expected and familiar i.e. Doom, Quake, Halflife etc - or you do something new where something like Newtonian physics make contextual sense and becomes an integral part of the game rather than something that is a barrier to enjoying it.

 

[Jetblack]

Steve,

Yup we probably agree on most of those things. I loved the newtonian physcis in Frontier/FFE, and you are absolutely correct that for many of us that learning curve and trying to understand how to cope were one of the major factors which differentiated it from every other space sim before and since.

I think your idea of having two modes; newtonian for those of us that like it, and a simpler navigation mode for others is a good one.

Yes the X games were really like disneyland version of space. I thought some of their ideas were good but badly implemented. I did like the remote control features of some of your space assets but they would have been way cooler had you been controlling something which is light years away instead of what feels like "around the corner".

Whats was ridiculous is how you could get into your space suit and travel from one end of a "system" to another in about 20 minutes

But its the feedback from X fans which made me sort of pessimistic re an Elite 4, because i brought up all these immersion-breakers in forums at the time and very few X fans thought it would be a good idea to re-scale the X universe to one more realistic, greater distances, newtonian physics etc...