Hypothetical Piracy Module: PvP and PvE

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Just spitballing an idea here, so feel free to shoot it down

Imagine a new module, the effect of which is to both immobilize the target and also protect it from damage - a kind of stasis field, if you will. The stasis field is keyed to the mass of the ship and the only way to disable it is to reduce the ship's mass - ie. to drop cargo.
Once the ship's mass has dropped sufficiently it is no longer immobilized, but retains the invulnerability for (say) 15 seconds - this gives the target time to escape without being destroyed. There should probably be an additional 60s immunity to prevent chain interdictions.

Higher grade/class modules require more cargo to be dropped to be disabled, but obviously ejecting all cargo would have to disable it too.
The pirate would also have the ability to drop the stasis at any time, but the invulnerability remains.

It should also be possible to resist the effect, but maybe at the cost of shields, or increased FSD charge time.

Finally, if the player under stasis logs out, then cargo is automatically dropped, starting with the highest value items - that way there's actually an incentive to stay logged in.

It's a bit more 'magic' than I would like, but maybe somebody can theorycraft some tech for it.

I THINK I've covered the possible exploits and griefing mechanisms, but I'm confident the Forum can provide some that I've not considered.

All feedback welcome.

 

[Cmdr Lycian]

How about if the module has to shut down the pirates weapons, similar to activating a cloaking device has the effect of drawing so much power, that weapons are off line. This way, less death to to piracy, and hopefully it can flourish. Abuse would be at a minimal.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

How about if the module has to shut down the pirates weapons, similar to activating a cloaking device has the effect of drawing so much power, that weapons are off line. This way, less death to to piracy, and hopefully it can flourish. Abuse would be at a minimal.

I thought about that, but I think it's exploitable - if you have two pirates working together, one can disable the ship and his weapons will be shut down, then the second drops in and blows the immobile ship to pieces while it's disabled. That's why I went for invulnerability instead.

 

[Sylveria]

Out of rep, but +1 for the idea.

Sure it's a rough framework for a possible module but it indeed has promise.

I also have to agree that the target would need to be protected for X amount of time to negate any possible exploits. If they wanna try and "blockade" the target elsewhere somehow with teamwork, great. But if the "motive" is indeed securing the cargo of the target ship and not pew-pew explosions, this would alleviate that.

 

[Cmdr Lycian]

Then it would disable all weapons, almost like emp.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Then it would disable all weapons, almost like emp.

That could work.

 

[RENFI3LD]

Idk, imo it sounds too civil for a pirate module in regards to the invulnerability thing. Unless your a pirate concerned for the safety of the people your stealing from. I kinda feel it would diminish the need for hatch breakers and take a lot of the dangerous aspect out of it (thats basically the incentive to drop your cargo). Also wouldnt you just be able to use it on pirates to escape easily? Theres some neat ideas there though.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Idk, imo it sounds too civil for a pirate module in regards to the invulnerability thing. Unless your a pirate concerned for the safety of the people your stealing from. I kinda feel it would diminish the need for hatch breakers and take a lot of the dangerous aspect out of it (thats basically the incentive to drop your cargo). Also wouldnt you just be able to use it on pirates to escape easily? Theres some neat ideas there though.

I'm trying to retain a level of civility to avoid it simply becoming another tool for ganking people. I think there needs to be a way for people to actually roleplay piracy, rather than player killing. I feel the invulnerability aspect addresses that.

Regarding traders using it to escape:
That's why I suggested it be resistable (with penalty). If a trader uses it on a pirate, the pirate simply says 'no thanks' and things progress as they do now. Also, having a cooldown on usage prevents both chain piracy and chain evasion.

Basically, the defending trader has a choice - submit and drop cargo (without the risk of subsequently being destroyed), or resist and flee, with the risk of being shot.

Plus it renders combat-logging redundant.

 

[StiTch]

Idk, imo it sounds too civil for a pirate module in regards to the invulnerability thing. Unless your a pirate concerned for the safety of the people your stealing from. I kinda feel it would diminish the need for hatch breakers and take a lot of the dangerous aspect out of it (thats basically the incentive to drop your cargo). Also wouldnt you just be able to use it on pirates to escape easily? Theres some neat ideas there though.

Aye, piracy is perceived as one extreme and many answer it by trying to push it to the other extreme; from straight up murder to an exercise in safely getting a ship to drop some lewt in a way that can be repeated with the same couple of button presses.

Speaking from experience the main harm to piracy is (aside from negative forum connotations) in base mechanics. Networking/instancing, loot magically poofing because the target high waked or went a short distance away from it, the mechanics intended to punish murderers, the lack of incentive to play in open...I realise the latter is a point of contention to many, but I think people misunderstand the base issues with PvP piracy. IF a target is willing to play ball, they usually do anyway. If they are not, no module will prevent them task killing and joining PG, and no module will bring back the loot that vanished due to poorly conceived cargo mechanics.

I really do appreciate people trying to give piracy a foot up but the best improvement FD could make for it is in smothing out some core rough edges. I am pretty disappointed to see that, as of yet, our planned "core gameplay" improvements amount to anti-crime initiatives, debeigification of planets (a victory for Mengy at least) and the odd expensive rock while mining.

Piracy should be the pinnacle of non-l337 PvP; in effect, "social PvP". You can shoot a PvE vessel but you cannot ask, persuade, and threaten it to drop loot. From that angle it is the most distinct form of PvP-watching it be relegated to a forced trap that sucks some loot out and lets you move on would break the very heart of it. I mean let's face it, who the hell does PvP piracy for profit?!

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

@Stitch

Totally agree with your comments regarding the technical/mechanical limitations, and this suggestion doesn't address any of them.

However, it does, I think, make it easier for the 'victim' to understand whether they're up against a ganker or a PvP pirate - which I think would reduce the tendency to combat log immediately upon interdiction.

The key thing, I think, about this suggestion is that it would allow the pirate to gain cargo even if the target combat logs. Ship loss after a real network disconnect (not combat log) is something that FDev want to avoid, but losing (say) 4t of cargo is, I believe, on a completely different scale and does not constitute a huge punishment for something that isn't the player's fault.

 

[M00ka]

I like the idea, it is elegant if used by the right players.

Just one question though: what happens if the 'target' isn't carrying any cargo? How can they break the tractor beam like hold if the only way is to reduce weight? Also, what would happen if the target is carrying two different types of cargo and just dumps biowaste each time and retains the gold?

 

[Morbad]

Don't like it...effect is far too arbitrary, metagamy, and I can see all sorts of ways to abuse it (as an attack or defense) on top of that.

 

[Sylveria]

Aye, piracy is perceived as one extreme and many answer it by trying to push it to the other extreme; from straight up murder to an exercise in safely getting a ship to drop some lewt in a way that can be repeated with the same couple of button presses.

Speaking from experience the main harm to piracy is (aside from negative forum connotations) in base mechanics. Networking/instancing, loot magically poofing because the target high waked or went a short distance away from it, the mechanics intended to punish murderers, the lack of incentive to play in open...I realise the latter is a point of contention to many, but I think people misunderstand the base issues with PvP piracy. IF a target is willing to play ball, they usually do anyway. If they are not, no module will prevent them task killing and joining PG, and no module will bring back the loot that vanished due to poorly conceived cargo mechanics.

I really do appreciate people trying to give piracy a foot up but the best improvement FD could make for it is in smothing out some core rough edges. I am pretty disappointed to see that, as of yet, our planned "core gameplay" improvements amount to anti-crime initiatives, debeigification of planets (a victory for Mengy at least) and the odd expensive rock while mining.

Piracy should be the pinnacle of non-l337 PvP; in effect, "social PvP". You can shoot a PvE vessel but you cannot ask, persuade, and threaten it to drop loot. From that angle it is the most distinct form of PvP-watching it be relegated to a forced trap that sucks some loot out and lets you move on would break the very heart of it. I mean let's face it, who the hell does PvP piracy for profit?!

So did we or did we not establish that the whole point of "piracy" versus "murder" is the difference between "profit" or not? Now I'm sort of confused, because the arguments I most frequently hear from pirates is "we're not murderers" (and conversely "don't equate us with such"). With this, I can only deduce, that perhaps before FD can expand "Piracy" as a profession, the community needs to decide what the actual definition of it is?

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Just spitballing an idea here, so feel free to shoot it down
…

- How would this module make the game more entertaining/fun for the player getting "pirated"?
The ship gets immobilized and the "pirate" gets "free loot". That doesn't sound like an interesting gameplay. Why should any player accept such extremely frustrating gameplay?

- What would happen if a wing of "pirates" use those modules on one player ship?
Would they be able to keep the player immobilized indefinitely until that player gets bored and logs out and losing cargo or until the "pirates" get bored and jump away?

- What happens if that module is used against a ship in the "mail slot" of a station?

 

[Cmdr Lycian]

A hyperdiction would be a requirement for the module to work. Once the module is fired, any others in the instance are immobilized, so they cannot be used again for say 10 minutes. That will eliminate the wing concept. As for choosing what to plunder, once the scan is finished, you can see what the target is carrying. You choose a commodity and just like when you jettison, you choose the amount to be dropped. IE choose a titanium from cargo, then how many.

The only thing that would be affected would be weapons and maybe thrusters (for ramming commanders). Now once the effect wears off, since it does not interfere with anything else besides weapons and thrusters, high wake would still be enabled as needed. Now the trader could pick a destination, and once the effect wears off, he can high wake out of danger.

 

[Morbad]

So did we or did we not establish that the whole point of "piracy" versus "murder" is the difference between "profit" or not? Now I'm sort of confused, because the arguments I most frequently hear from pirates is "we're not murderers" (and conversely "don't equate us with such"). With this, I can only deduce, that perhaps before FD can expand "Piracy" as a profession, the community needs to decide what the actual definition of it is?

Piracy already has a definition and doesn't need to be redefined.

Piracy can certainly involve murder (or in the case of Elite, ship destruction), but that's not a defining feature of it and usually not the goal of a pirate.

Profit is another matter and is largely lacking from ED piracy, irrespective of how much murder or not is involved.

Frankly, I don't ED will ever be conducive to actual piracy ever again. It barely was early in the game, when cargo was actually worth something, and now, with all the technical issues that make stealing from someone essentially impossible, cargo is doomed to be permanently worthless unless the economy is further undermined, which would make credit profits even more meaningless, which would make piracy even more of a farce.

Logistics are too easy (there aren't any trade 'routes' any more with the absurdly large jump ranges in play), escape is too easy, credits are too worthless, cargo is too worthless, costs of losing a ship too low (little incentive to not get shot down and plenty of ways to cheat around it regardless), crime and punishment doesn't make any sense (no real consequences to deter anyone). No real risk and no real reward on either side.

As it stands Piracy in ED, from the perspective of anyone with any pretense to caring about plausibility, immersion, or verisimilitude, is a ridiculous farce. Real piracy (and related activities like smuggling and privateering) would be awesome, but would require a radical reworking of many of the game's mechanisms. Piracy should be a high-risk, high-reward activity. Only the desperate or very skilled should seriously consider it as an occupation and everyone else should dread it, not look forward to it, or be able to ignore it without limiting themselves to highly obscure or overly safe (and thus less profitable) areas.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

- How would this module make the game more entertaining/fun for the player getting "pirated"?
The ship gets immobilized and the "pirate" gets "free loot". That doesn't sound like an interesting gameplay. Why should any player accept such extremely frustrating gameplay?

I'm not sure it necessarily needs to be interesting for the victim.
I've said the victim should have the opportunity to resist the effect if they want - then they can evade, fight, combat log, whatever, just as they do now. Alternatively, they can accept the inconvenience safely, without the risk of destruction.

- What would happen if a wing of "pirates" use those modules on one player ship?
Would they be able to keep the player immobilized indefinitely until that player gets bored and logs out and losing cargo or until the "pirates" get bored and jump away?

The original description talks about a temporary 'immunity' being conferred after the first stasis. That prevents a multiple pirates being able to hold the victim indefinitely.

- What happens if that module is used against a ship in the "mail slot" of a station?

Good question. It could be made that the stasis effect doesn't work when the target is masslocked by a station/planet.


As I said, the idea contains a lot of magic/handwavium and I'm not 100% happy with it myself - but I still think it's worth discussing

 

[Punished Mobius]

Hit the target with some Ion Mines and you have essentially the same immobilization effect as you are looking for. At that point you can hatch break them. Or just threaten them with violence.

"Finally, if the player under stasis logs out, then cargo is automatically dropped, starting with the highest value items - that way there's actually an incentive to stay logged in."

That's a good one.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

I'm not sure it necessarily needs to be interesting for the victim.
…

In my opinion it's the most important part in multiplayer interaction - it needs to be entertaining/interesting/fun for both sides. If it's not something one player likes to experience, why would that player accept it?

A module that immobilizes a player - forcing the player to be passive - is, in my opinion, extremely frustrating. It doesn't matter if the player can do something before or after. It turns the player into a spectator of something "unpleasant".

While I think trying to find solutions for piracy in ED is good, I think that piracy won't work in ED*. No amount of new modules will change that - unless it is something both sides enjoy.


*) without a massive change of fundamental aspects of the game

 

[Chaparral]

I like the idea of making piracy viable through some sort of non-lethal means. What about a ship to ship tether? Blow up the target ship and the pirate blows too. Cargo is transferred through the tether. The minigame is getting close enough to fire the harpoon and score a hit. Conventional weapons are disabled during the harpooning, during the harpooning, and for a short period after the harpooning. If there is a murder hobo in a wing with the harpooning pirate, then both the hobo and the pirate wingmate are marked for death by the authorities.

On a side note, I'd like to have the authority ships use this same module to capture criminals in high security systems. Impound the criminal's ship and force the offender to do hard labor in a prison system (mining, running in system data scan missions, prospecting for sulfur, running biowaste in a sidey 20x between planetary bases within the prison system).